Riot Please Make Tanks Useful Again

Roll in Grass··20 votes·2,284 views

I've been playing a lot of Renekton lately and I've found a severe problem with the game: No matter how much armor, no matter how much health, no matter how much magic resist you get, tanks are still useless. I'll build a Sunfire, Randuin's, Spirit Visage, Black Cleaver, and Guardian Angel, and still get melted by an Ezreal, or any AD/AP Carry late game. I wish I could record the evidence, but I don't know how to use video editing softwares and am too lazy to learn how, so you'll either have to take my word for it or go test it yourself.

I've also seen a lot of complaints about how useless tanks are, and I didn't believe it until I just recently started playing Renekton again. I am outraged by this because I feel like I've spent all of my gold for nothing. Honestly, I feel like it'd be better to just have 5 glass cannons on a team than the current meta of 2 tanks and 3 glass cannons. Please Riot, make tanks useful.

39 Comments

EffectFX9 votes

Played renekton fine the other day. Renekton isn't a tank by the way.

Kowe The Ewok7 votes

Still wondering why they destroyed Rammus like that. The new jungle itself already was a heavy nerf.

Increasing his Q's cooldown by 60% and lowering the armor shred on his E combined with his horrible new clear basically removed him from the game.

Hullabaloo9073 votes

I really hope they give some tank jungles some love after they get this whole skirmisher/devourer mess fixed.

Rawrful6 votes

Full tank Maokai is still one of the most powerful things in this game.

Renekton is just in a bad place right now. He doesn't have enough CC or survivability to really be a tank. He was a massive bully in lane who built bruiser and scaled into mid game, but fell off like a ton of bricks. Now he is just strong in lane, and has trouble snowballing like he used to.

SecretAgentHulk2 votes

I consistently dominate with Malphite too, and my Braum is good enough to stay alive while a good team cleans up. Are there tanks besides Renekton that aren't doing well atm?

TehNACHO4 votes

Well, just about every tanky fighter/bruiser that people misclassify as "tanks".

Champions with very active abilities to defend themselves/others - Maokai's Vengeful Maelstrom, Braum's Stand Behind Me and Unbreakable, or Malphite's Ground Slam - Tend to be the best at actually being tanks because, as just stated, they can actively defend. It's not (just) that they built tanky, it's that their abilities allow them actual gameplay options to be the defending tank of a team.

On the other hand though, champions who just happen to build tanky mostly only to defend themselves (Renekton Ahem Renekton), who fall much closer to the "Bruiser" category or "Tanky Damage Dealer", are nowhere near as good at tanking the enemy team. At that point, the only factor that's actually defending them is itemization, and when you consider that you can build Ashe tanky, itemization alone isn't a good factor for determining who's the best at being a tank or not.

WooBeeWoo4 votes

Yeah Riot doesn't care because they aren't ranged adcs... Tank itemization is nothing compared to damage builds it just doesn't work

Hullabaloo9074 votes

Sion Amumu Braum Maokai Leona

The front line is awesome

ApplyForAGrant1 votes

It's not tanky champions that are weak, its the tank itemization.

The champions you listed are only tanky because they have innate tanky states (except Amumu, who doesnt need it because he just destroy your whole team with his ult). It's champions such as Renekton and Jarvan IV that want to be off tanks late game don't last much longer than assassins do even if they have 4 or 5 tank items.

Hullabaloo9071 votes

Jarvan and Renekton are supposed to fall off late. They are really strong duelists, and if they could just get super tanky lategame, that would be dumb.

ApplyForAGrant2 votes

But they used to be much stronger before Riot buffed ADC itemization and nerfed tank itemization simultaneously in patch 4.10 because everyone complained that ADC was too weak. Now everyone is complaining about ADC being too strong and tanks being too weak...

Riot just can't seem to find the happy medium between ADC and bruisers, its either one is too strong or another, never perfect balance =/

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

It doesn't help riot nerfed core tank items a few patches back, and still hasn't addressed tanks being unable to tank because of their oversights. So I'll outline some details for others not in know.

Randuin's omen, with armor and health, it was a prime choice against most assassins and adcs, but that was when it reduced the (basic) attacker's speed by 10% and attack speed by 20%. Which helped against quick and kiting enemies such as ashe, lucian, and kalista. They said this was too much (despite that popular champs were unaffected b/c of built in mobility, such as lucian, and caitlyn) and removed the auto attacker slow component, as well as reduced the basic attack penalty to 15%. So no more outrunning the one trying to kill you. And while 15% sounds like a decent penalty, I'll remind you that the most popular items for AD champions have more than 30% attack speed boost, such as the phantom dancer at 50%. Yeah, so that passive anti-AD is next to useless because its unnoticeable.

Banshee's veil, notorious for negating the first enemy ability to hit you. While crippling against single poke champs like nunu or malphite, useless against most mages and carries which have several pokes (or low cooldown pokes) such as vayne or nidalee. It also had a 25 second cooldown, which made it available for each teamfight, but taking any damage from champions reset this CD, which felt balanced. Again riot noticed the abusability of entire teams building this item, and instead of adding a disadvantage to multiple people holding it like the aura items, they instead increased this CD to 40 seconds. Though not quite doubling the time it takes to refresh, I'll also point out that the respawn timer for dying at the half hour mark (which most games end around) is 30 seconds. Which means you'll almost always respawn before your shield does, if if they are in your base, you'll need that shield to push them back.

Frozen heart, unlike the other two, had it's passive as an aura. Reducing nearby enemy attack speed by 20%, that's what it used to be, again they claimed it too strong and lowered this penalty to 15%. Remember that phantom dancer with +50% a.s.? That alone would cancel out this and the omen's penalties as they used to be, now they feel next to useless on most tanks and with such high costs.

Last whisper, offering a bit of attack damage, and a passive armor shred for it's wielder by 40% (the void staff is the magic equivalent), and with the right mysteries and runes, around 50%. Doesn't seem like such a good idea to spend nearly 3K on defense when you only benefit from half of it. What about health? Sure there's plenty of health items, but, blade of the ruined king (and liandry's torment the magic similarity) deal bonus damage based on the target's health. Did I forget to mention ignite? It deals a guaranteed 500 true damage (over 5 seconds), and you only get half healing effects during the time it's dealing this damage. There's also several antitank champions played fairly commonly; irelia & yi (autoattack true damage), zac & amumu (area damage scaling with enemy health), jarvan & xinzhao (armor shred), fizz & miss fortune & tristana (healing negation).

Tanks were useful back in season 1 & 2, but with defencive items being nerfed, high dps and burst champions have steamrolled. You may be thinking 'but what about crowd control abilities?' however you can't use them if you're dead. What's the point of CC if you don't live long enough to use it? A tank should be able to take more than 1 extra hit compared to the mage or carry, riot has forgotten that key detail.

lojician3 votes

Renekton isn't trash because he's a tank. Back when he was remotely viable you could go mostly ad and be ok even though the enemy adc had a tendency to attack move backwards and outskill you. Even if you made tanks without some kind of insane defensive steroid usable again Renekton would still be trash because he's an early game melee and riot has been very clear telling players that like that playstyle to go screw themselves.

It's hilarious that we live in a world were poppy is more viable than renekton but we apparently do. Riot actually used to say they wanted there to be a 'renekton bar' because they liked his interactive playstyle and just needed to create more top laners with that type of aggression. But almost a year later it's clear that they were lying about this because what they have created and make no attempt to change is an early game farmoff with a brokenly passive and defensive teleport. I guess so there's potential for teleport lc$ big play$.

I stopped playing this game because riot had killed everything I enjoyed at all about top lane (there was more to it than passively farming while trying not to get facerolled then outscaled by a lulu but don't bother trying to explain that to ghostcrawler). I occasionally come look at the latest patch notes and balance subreddit because I used to really like this game and think they could make top lane interactive and fun again if they actually cared to do what they promised a year ago. But they don't.

Roll in Grass1 votes

Yeah... first Ghostcrawler was ruining World of Warcraft by overnerfing every Mage counter and overbuffing Mages and refusing to let Mages get nerfed, then he comes to League of Legends and tries to overbuff Mages, especially Lulu, but luckily Riot partially stopped his rampage and make Lulu less of a problem, though Mages are still overpowered in our current meta. I wish Ghostcrawler would either stop being selfish or completely leave the programming industry.

lojician2 votes

I just don't understand how he got another job in the industry, at the head of a balance team no less. It's like the riot higher ups went "hey who can we get that's reviled by the community of their last game as being biased and ruining competitive pvp?"

The really sad part is I don't think it matters because lol is too big to fail as an e$port and the portion of the community ghostcrawler continuously gives the middle finger isn't big enough to matter. So I think the game is staying like this.

Roll in Grass1 votes

In that case I'm going to rebuy my WoW subscription soon. I bought WoD but was too lazy to play it after I hit 100 so I just let the sub wear off, but now I'm probably just going to rebuy my WoW sub..

Matthevv2 votes

I have a feeling you are the kind of tank that goes face first into the entire enemy team and expects to come out on top. Or one of those tanks that tunnel visions onto the enemy carries.

I feel like if you actually positioned properly and focused on protecting your own squishies instead of diving your opponents squishies, you would not have this opinion.

HeadHonchkrow2 votes

Cho'gath seems to be in a rather good place, but his omnomnomnom nerfs are gonna hurt a lot. Maokai, as Rawrful said, is in a really good place. Irelia is godlike, but better nerf her, it's inevitable. Idk why Rito seems to hate tanks, they could use some buffs. item 3070 Chogath item 3070

jmaishere1 votes

but lets face it a good chogath can basically nuke someone from like half health with his ult if he has enough ap

Prometheus8563 votes

yeah, wouldn't want that one thing he does well to stay in the game or anything. Cho trades it for ridiculously low mobility and a huge hitbox if he plays right at all. He needs a full update, but they'll just slap a bandage on it...

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

^

Neidox2 votes

Tanks will be in a bad place in the game due to items like item 3153 item 3151 item 3035 item 3135 As long as these items are as strong as they are right now, tanks will be rendered useless in the game. If you build tank, you deal less damage, but with these items your tank stats get shredded, all you do is use your crowdcontrol and then die.

azrolator1 votes

I totally agree with this. But I would like to add that they buffed turrets up against tanks now too with true damage and armor piercing power.

PrinceArchie2 votes

Yea riot has basically ended the idea of being a tank in the game and you can read every post in here to solidify my assertion, even from posters who ironically feel tanks are "useful". They have warped ideas of what it means to be a "tank". Being a "tank" doesnt mean that you can take an extra ability to the face compared to your adc or apc, it doesnt mean that you're only good for initiation either. Being a tank means you can be the disruptive force in a team fight, obstructing the enemy carries damage output, while being able to make an impact throughout the fight.

How can I disrupt carries that can melt me, make any of my itemization choices/bonuses essentially useless, and essentially ignore me the entire fight even if im in their faces. A tank shouldn't need to build damage or be a semi-damage bruiser to be relevant, yet that's what Riot has seemed to endorse, with the only successful "tanks" being those who can build damage, have gap closers and CC; Irelia would be a strong example of this, so would Gnar. If not those, you're an AP "tank" who brings way more utility than any other AD counterpart (Maokai, Malphite, Swain,etc), which is a discrepancy to be dealt with at another time.

The problem is much less about the champs themselves however moreso than it is the poor itemization for those who lack some of the more "major" damage or utility aspects; which is vividly described only a few posts below me briefly. Anyone feeling that ADC's and APC's have to worry about true tanks are either lying, never played a tank before, or are so clouded by their success in carry roles that they have a warped sense of role effectiveness and efficiency outside their role. Tanks need to be effective again.

Roll in Grass1 votes

I forgot who posted it and I'm too lazy to look for it right now, but I wish Riot would just put back the old Randuin's stats and passive. That was when I actually had fun playing tanks, because tanks are, and always have been, my favourite role. I've played WoW since Burning Crusade, and I played tanks in that game all the way to last expac (which I decided to switch to healing). Whenever I found League, I started out playing Wukong toplane, and constantly built tank items. For a new player, I was pretty good just because of the old tank itemization.

Now with the new tank items, I really can't do shit other than, what someone else said, crowdcontrol and die. I play Shyvana, Renekton, Maokai, and Thresh as tanks, but I still render useless late game, except with Maokai only because of his ultimate and massive amount of crowd control/damage output. Same with Udyr. After I get Zephyr and Triforce (or BotRK) on him, I build straight tank, and these are pretty much the only two tanks that can be useful mainly because of their gapclosing/crowd control/damage output.

I posted on someone else's comment that the problem is Ghostcrawler. Back when he worked with Blizzard, he destroyed the PvP aspect of the game for a lot of people because he loved Mages. So he got everything nerfed that countered mages and severely buffed mages. After that, all you had to do was play a Mage to win at PvP. Thankfully he left, and now there's decent balance in PvP, but now he's come to Riot and is destroying League of Legends. It was his idea to nerf Magic Resist items, I'm going off a hunch, but I know for a fact it's him that got mages buffed, because all of a sudden after he joined Riot, mages started destroying the PvP aspect of the game. I just wish Ghostcrawler would either stop being selfish or leave the balance scene forever.

MrSlowDie2 votes

tanks can't do #LCSBIGPLAYS, nuff said

5dolarfootlong2 votes

Guys check this out a group of friends thought they would play all tanks the best part is they won it helps that the manged to steal baron and have a big finale push (close game) it's awesome. It's the full game play so if you want to skip to the exiting parts skip to the end. But I encourage to watch the whole video this Chogath is amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n10cJuLiaec

Sammystorm1 votes

tanks are worse then they use to be but just have to play differently now. However this is not a new thing. This has been a thing since season 3.

A Bad Ahri1 votes

Leona

Hayaishi1 votes

Bruisers are not tanks though his problems is that hes not useful at anything outside laning phase.

Ryvaku1 votes

Besides isn't Renekton more of a burst damage champ anyway? I never see him much of a tank kind of champ anyway with his current kit.

S H A Y C 01 votes

it sounds like your enemy is getting really far ahead... i run tanks top lane often and dont always get melted as you describe, and when i do it is a direct result of the enemy pulling so far ahead that one more item isnt going to fix the problem. Garen is a wonderful tank especially if you abuse his 20% armor and mag res passive alongside his regen passive, its pretty much a win or stall top lane and if youll notice neither of those are losing which is a good thingGaren

Sneak Dog1 votes

This is League of Legends. Tanks are very useful, just not for tanking damage. They rely on cc and initating right into the enemy team to prevent damage. They can take a couple of hits, but nothing significant.

Narasimha1 votes

Incidently, THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT. Amor and MR are designed so that late game, they will eventually be beaten by AD and AP. This is to prevent the era of tanks, where fights lasted 5 minutes because even the most fed ADC couldn't kill Mundo. You have other options. You can peel for your team. You can CC the enemy team. If you're being melted, then that means someone else on your team isn't. Or you were the last one standing, which is a different issue entirely.

Roll in Grass2 votes

It'd actually be fun and entertaining to have a fight lasting 2+ minutes o -o I'd honestly enjoy it if Riot did something to make fights last that long.

Sooko1 votes

So tanks are ADC and Mage fodder? A tank is not supposed to survive damage?

Magma Lux Mid1 votes

Renekton is a fighter, not a tank. Tanks are still useful. I'be seen streams of Mundo becoming an unkillable monster. I've faced Nasus that took everything we had to kill him. I've gone in to peel for the rest of my team as Shyvana, taking four ults before I died and my team cleaning up seconds later. I've also been chased across the map by the enemy team to my own where we aced them, the fed Jax tunneling on me cause I was less than half health yet still lived.

Hayaishi1 votes

Riot doesn't want hyper tanks again, it's ok for the people who haven't seen then to want tanks being strong but bruisers abuse tank itemization way too hard to let it be strong.

We'd like to see Sejuani tank enough so she can apply her CC rotations, but then Shyvana is also capable of going 1v5 against your team as she used to do, same with Jarvan in season 2 which was when bruisers were at their prime (Such a ridiculous period of pure imbalance)

So as said above Riot now chooses to have tanks be more interactive when it comes to tanking (Braum's shield, Maokai's R) instead of just hammering through your team ignore them and reach the ADC/APC to delete them regardless of how much CC was used to stop them.

So what is needed is giving fighters/bruisers who relied on this play style a niche or role in fights different to what they used to have which imo is a large project because many of them used to have this style of play.

Roll in Grass1 votes

I was here during hypertank season 3 and early season 4. It was FUN! Besides, it's not hard to balance the game. Make tank items useful again without them being OP.

More from Gameplay

More by Roll in Grass