realize that there are two people involved in the aspect of "is this fun" the person who is playing the champion and the person who is playing against the champion.
most of the new champs are extremely unfun to play against and every champion designed by certainlyt certainly is.
ScurvyNave6 votes[deleted]
Leti the Yeti8 votesback with some unpopular opinion
they were right to hire him his champs make old champs look like shit? well maybe THEY ARE SHIT
people hate his champs because they arent balanced, true but then that does not mean they are poorly designed champs he made good champs with fun versatile unique kits... I would love it if every other champ was up to the same tier as champs like Zed and Yas perhaps his champs dont fit in league... maybe his chaps are are just too good for league all those champs with binary kits that do idk one or two things at most with limited outplay potential are obviously beneath what certaintyt has designed
Phife5 votesI agree with the CertainlyT point the guy has several claims to "fame":
Yasuo - good god this guy's power on release and Overloaded kit Darius - His ult nough said Thresh - Overloaded Kit Zed - no words needed
and Now Kalista mobile and overloaded kit.
Nope no mobility creep here.
who hired the guy? He had no experience working on games before Riot hired him and since then he's given us overpower, super mobile, and overloaded kits that make old champions look like shit and upset the entire balance of the game.
pshh we got a bronze champ designer here, lets all sit around and listen to him whine about Riots champion designers.
Rew7111 votesHi Jeff, I'm a person who has a life. Why don't you get one too?
DrCyanide3 votesI'm glad a mysterious "person who has a life" can continue in a meaningful way to a discussion on suggested business practices for a company they patron.
Rew7111 votesi'm sorry for my rude post. but, i find it illogical to come onto a wall and demean someone due to a rank that has been know hard to get out of. while i too am in bronze, i'm not in this for rank. the mere fact that someone would bring this up just goes to show how bad Leagues ranking system is, as for people's right to give opinions. as it is that his post will not be liked, i have to say that new champions like azir, gnar, and yasuo are not fun at all due to the major advantages they have. these are champions i actually did get. rek'sai (after one game of playing as her) showed little to no weakness to even ranged champions. if League continues to be unfair to previous champions and give abusive abilities to new champions then we may be seeing some huge decrease in players in the future.
DrCyanide1 votesOh, I fully agree, people in Bronze have every right to contribute to a discussion and can bring up very valid points. But this particular person seems to be missusing the word "Overloaded", and regardless of their rank as a player of the game they could be called a "bronze level champion designer".
Subject 51 votesOverloaded kits can lead to problems that are unable to be solved due to the fact that the game is ongoing and always current, whilst champions are not ongoing and current until a rework or a buff is made.
When a developer makes a champion, i would assume the thought pattern includes the following. Keep in mind, this would be the mind set of when the game is being developed and only has about 50 or so champions.
"So what if this big burly guy, did not react to any crowd control? Like he could just completely ignore everything and hunt down the adc, adc's have a tendency to not have very much mobility and rely on tanks to protect them, kill this champion before they kill your carry. And he can have an attack speed steroid that allows him a little bit of regeneration, that way he can be in the top lane and jungle! He can throw his weapon, lets see an axe! And the axe obviously will slow down the opponent is hit, and he can pick it up to shorten the cooldown! It makes sense and everything, Concluding the fact that one of his abilities allows him to attack really quick, we can give him a passive that when he gets hurt he can attack faster and faster! One of his abilities scales with each attack, we can give it true damage but low scaling and forces him to interact."
Now this is NOW this is how i think CertainlyT makes his champions, his thought patterns and even the new developers? If there is new devs?
"So what if we had a support, who is like a living spirit vacuum and lives in the shadow isles? He has a chain that he drags around and uses it to drag people around, he also has a lantern that contains all of the souls he has stolen and contained. He can throw out his chain and drag his enemy back, multiple times too, and decide if he wants to pull it again to launch himself towards the caught enemy player. He can also use his chain to disposition the enemy, send them towards himself or away from himself, and it allows him to poke, and it scales with time, and it scales with ability power which scales infinitely. Also, he can throw out his lantern to shield his allys, even the entire team! This also scales with his ability power, which scales infinitely, and one ally can grab it to reposition, it can be used as false bait, real bait and assisting with ganks! It can ward a bush so he doesn't get caught out and just about everything any support could ever want! And his passive is he collects the souls of minions, enemy and ally champions which he scales from for ability power and armor. His ultimate has perfect synergy with his Q and slows down the enemy for 99% of their movement speed, it hurts them, multiple times too! And it can zone, and offer large amounts of CC and is about the size of the river, and-" Woah woah woah, hey Mr. T you are really imaginative! But uh-uhm . . . i think that is enough.
". . . I mean he has to pick up the souls."
TL;DR
Well designed champions do not need overloaded kits and a bundle of free stats to actually become a viable champion. If you look at his champions alone, you can SEE that all of his champions have balancing issues. The exception being Darius, i'll give him that. TerribleT is an AMAZING champion designer, but making every champion overloaded that he creates will not make the game fair for champions with normal kits.
DrCyanide1 votesAccording to the wiki, CertainlyT designed 
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, and 
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TL;DR: While annoying to go against, CertainlyT's champions are not overloaded for the most part, or are at least questionable on if they're overloaded.
Subject 52 votesI am going to have to call out that you do not realize what makes a kit overloaded.
DrCyanide1 votesA kit is overloaded if most of the abilities have passives or secondary cast options, especially when these passivess or casts are not nessisary in the kit.
I forgot Flay had a passive. I ammend my statement on Thresh not being overloaded.
Subject 52 votesAre you kidding? That is the only thing that you think is overloaded about thresh, his flay passive?
An overloaded kit is NOT determined only by the abilities with passives or secondary cast options.
DrCyanide1 votesThresh's kit is borderline. The shield on the lantern is probably unnecessary and an aspect of overloading, but the Q and E are functionally close to the same in every thing they do. Does one overloaded ability make a champion overloaded?
As you can see, I already mentioned that the lantern's shield was not needed. I think the hook is fine for his doubled up ability.
An overloaded kit is NOT determined only by the abilities with passives or secondary cast options.
I'm very curious what you consider in addition to these factors, since the ones I've listed are the common definition of am overloaded kit.
Subject 52 votesCompare Janna to Thresh, you can easily see what a healthy kit looks like and what an overloaded kit looks like. If a kit is capable of doing everything and anything better than any champion in that particular role, chances are they have so many toys and fundamentals that belong to a specific role.
Another example includes Lee, why is his kit overloaded? Because he is capable of everything and does drastically better than compared to other champions with kits that are simply not as overloaded as his. The example i gave previously on this topic would be you racing with another person, however you need to run uphill with a giant fan smacking you down. Also the opponent is allowed to drive a vehicle and you need to run by foot, how do we expect to balance these two opponents?
Back on thresh, technically speaking he can throw down a lantern and save his ally. Can you not think of more than 5 other things this ability can do? What about flay? technically speaking, the ability allows a play making champion to have poke and displacement. Can you not think of anything else this ability offers? How about the ultimate? Lets look at a non overloaded kit for example, Janna.
Janna has a shield that protects against damage. Janna has a tornado that offers a knock up depending on how long you charge it up. Janna has a slow that slows people down for better peel. Janna has a passive that gives local movespeed, and her ultimate pushes enemies away and heals her team that surround herself.
Yasu0 is dog1 votesThere does seem to be some reoccurring trends with Xin Zhao #13 , Garen+ , Blitz+ , and the MegaZord of Ninjas though
Phife1 votesThere does seem to be some reoccurring trends with Xin Zhao #13
Yasuo is subpar atm and darius is shit tier, zed does no damage if u have a zhonyas / armor and thresh is OP. so 1 out of 4 of those champs i can say "yes, they are op" but not all of them. Hes a great champion designer and all of his champions are very diverse and play unique rolls in the game that shape what league of legends has become.
So to anyone looking to fire a great champion designer should go to WoW forums and talk about their pvp balance designers. They are the real retards.
Raptamei4 votesand Now Kalista mobile and overloaded kit.
44% winrate because she has no damage. QQ.
Brenticus122 votesLol are you a moron? All CertainlyT does is design the champ, not balance them. Zirene said so on a stream that all Certainly does is design a champ to be as fun as possible in the most weirdest of ways but the balance team mucks up by not considering how these mechanics would work.
Yasuo was weak on launch because he had average stats and no one knew how to play him. They then buffed him and everyone managed to learn him and ended up destroying everything because of how they buffed him.
And Old champions might look like shit because they are shit...? As time goes on things become outdated. That's why Sion was reworked and WW will too as they were based off of archaic design principles.
CertainlyT is one of the best designers. Unfortunately because his champs focus on mechanics rather than straight up number battles, you have to balance it around someone who has played the champ enough to know the ins and outs of them and has mastered their mechanics.
Erockandroll5 votesThe problem with this is that their are two different skill set associated with a champion. Playing as, and playing against.
And These skill sets lag from each other. which is why champions will get buffed once then Nerfed 3 times in a row (hey yasuo)
Technically you could add a third skill set, playing alongside. How to synergize with said champion (hey again yasuo)
But you still have to consider the mater that the PBE is not a large enough source to Properly balance may new champions. It wasn't until release that people notice the AFK exploit in ZZ'rots Portal.
Jamaree4 votesDo you realize how impossible of a task that really is?
UberAffe2 votesActually that is how champions should be designed otherwise they were not designed properly. That being said I disagree with him in that I think some of the recent champions are fun to play against.
Jamaree3 votesActually that is how champions should be designed otherwise they were not designed properly. That being said I disagree with him in that I think some of the recent champions are fun to play against.
Sure enough, but what he is asking is literally impossible. Just because how certain champions are, I think fighting against Vel Koz with a ranged champion is fun as hell, fight against him with a melee champion...yeah...no.
ScurvyNave2 votesSure enough, but what he is asking is literally impossible. Just because how certain champions are, I think fighting against Vel Koz with a ranged champion is fun as hell, fight against him with a melee champion...yeah...no.
I believe OP is more-so referring to how all the new champions make old ones obsolete in terms of mobility and kits. Why go talon when you can go Yasuo? Why Lux when you have Vel'koz? Taric vs Braum? Hecarim vs Rek'sai? Any top laner vs Gnar?
Generally these champions do what their old counterparts could do and more if not better. This makes certain champs obsolete whereas the new ones have very little counter play outside of do the one X thing.
Jamaree3 votesI believe OP is more-so referring to how all the new champions make old ones obsolete in terms of mobility and kits. Why go talon when you can go Yasuo? Why Lux when you have Vel'koz? Taric vs Braum? Hecarim vs Rek'sai? Any top laner vs Gnar?
Generally these champions do what their old counterparts could do and more if not better. This makes certain champs obsolete whereas the new ones have very little counter play outside of do the one X thing.
You can't really compare the ones you listed, Yasou is more so a melee ADC then an assassin, so why go Talon instead of Zed, and that comes down to AoE damage over more single target. Lux over Vel Koz, more range and shorter CD, and more damage I believe as well I think, Taric vs Braum, because point and click stun over putting yourself in danger, depends on the top, most melee top laners, no, ranged ones, because his DPS isn't all that much higher then say a tanky DPS Renekton, he just has the advantage of poking then finishing off with heavy amounts of CC.
Brenticus121 votesTalon and Yasuo is a wrong comparison. You should be comparing Talon and Zed and honestly I'm with you there. Zed is pretty BS and Talon is left without a niche despite being the most balanced assassin.
Yasuo is a light fighter along the lines of Yi, Trynd and Fiora who actually has the least damage output late game BUT reaches this late game power faster than them.
Lux has an easier time poking cause they buffed her passive. Also her range is longer.
Taric and Braum can't really be compared cause Braum is more of the "Stand behind me!" support while Taric is more of the "We will fight together" kinda support. Taric fills a niche but I'm not sure what niche that is honestly lol. He's not as versatile as Thresh but close enough.
Hecarim actually has a better laning phase now imo and also better jungle sustain cause of his buffs and her nerfs.
Gnar is cancer.
SecretAgentHulk1 votesGnar is fun to play tanks against. Malph absolutely clobbers him once he hits 6.
squirrelah1 voteslet me rephrase it then. most champs are inheritly fun to play otherwise why would you be playing them. but you shouldnt sacrifice the player on the receiving ends fun because you think an ability or a niche would be cool to have in the game, especially if the thing you are adding to the game is easy to do even for inexperienced players. yasuos wind wall, kalistas passive, reksais tunneling(although that could easily be fixed by adding more cds to when he can use them), azirs entire kit(cant all in him because of ult/mobility cant outpoke him because its literally unddogeable and very high range) are all examples of this.
Its like they completely forgot that there are people that have to play against this stuff.
Jamaree4 voteslet me rephrase it then. most champs are inheritly fun to play otherwise why would you be playing them. but you shouldnt sacrifice the player on the receiving ends fun because you think an ability or a niche would be cool to have in the game, especially if the thing you are adding to the game is easy to do even for inexperienced players. yasuos wind wall, kalistas passive, reksais tunneling(although that could easily be fixed by adding more cds to when he can use them), azirs entire kit(cant all in him because of ult/mobility cant outpoke him because its literally unddogeable and very high range) are all examples of this.
There is being fun, and there is being viable. Yasou's wind wall is the only thing keeping him afloat, and no, without that wind wall of his, he wouldn't be able to survive mid lane, why do you think he isn't a top laner, because every melee champion would bully him out of the lane. He isn't tanky, that shield stops like an AA early on and you can walk through his wind wall.
Kailsta's passive is the only thing stopping her from being worst then Urgot. She is a higher squishy ranged champion whose only mobility is that passive. Her range is poor, her DPS is meph, and there is little reason to play her Twitch besides that passive of hers.
Rek sai's tunnels < wards, there are other things in her kit that need complaining about, not her tunnels though.
I think you are right on Azir though.
Its like they completely forgot that there are people that have to play against this stuff.
What you find fun fighting and what I find fun fighting are two different things. Personally, I LOVED fighting Yasou, why, because the champions I played countered him. There was nothing he could do, he had no options against me because of the champions I played against him. That was fun for me, and yet, why is that fun for Yasou? Fun is 100% relative, what one person might find fun might be the most anti fun toxic shit ever.
SecretAgentHulk1 votesSpeaking of fun, my favorite matchup in the whole game is Teemo (me) vs Darius top-lane with our junglers camping bot. The reason is that this is the most even skill-based matchup I regularly play—Teemo has to poke Darius while staying out of range, but he has less than 100 units of leeway.
Brenticus122 votesHoly shit, you actually think Yasuo's wind wall, Kalista's passive and playing Azir as a whole is EASY? Wtf are you on?
Have you even played these champs beyond their release week or are you just QQ'ing after getting your ass handed to you cause you never bothered to learn how to counter them or played TF against Yasuo?
squirrelah4 voteshow is that impossible? im saying the new champions are entirely focused on the person behind the keyboard playing it and not who they are playing against. Obviously you cant achieve perfection here but literally being able to do nothing as a melee champion without a gapcloser to kallista is extremly anti fun, and the same goes for yasuos windwall/hypermobility in lane as ranged champions.
Jamaree2 voteshow is that impossible? im saying the new champions are entirely focused on the person behind the keyboard playing it and not who they are playing against. Obviously you cant achieve perfection here but literally being able to do nothing as a melee champion without a gapcloser to kallista is extremly anti fun, and the same goes for yasuos windwall/hypermobility in lane as ranged champions.
Well, that being said, what you are asking for is quite literally impossible, because champions that aren't fun to fight in one form, might be fight to fun in another. HELL, even older champions had and still do have this problem. Case in point, Renekton, unless you are one of the few tankier melees who also has sustain, fighting him isn't enjoyable in the slightest, on the flip side, playing ranged against him, and you can win and actually have an enjoyable lane.
Name me one champion that is fun to fight as both melee and ranged?
SecretAgentHulk1 votesName me one champion that is fun to fight as both melee and ranged, and I'll show you one champion who isn't fun to play.
DJ Siamak2 votesDo you realize how impossible of a task that really is?
They can try to not make it feel helpless like Kalista makes a melee champ feel if she does well.
Jamaree4 votes[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VcVK1pYT,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-01-20T05:48:28.370+0000)
They can try to not make it feel helpless like Kalista makes a melee champ feel if she does well.
How is it fair for yasou when he is playing against a Mordekaiser, or Darius, or Swain?
How is it fun for Kalista when playing against assassins?
How is it fun for Rek sai playing against Fizz or any champion that can avoid her CC?
Fun is relative.
Learnding1 votesDo you realize how impossible of a task that really is?
How about instead of allowing streamers to go on the PBE to never actually do what is intended, and allows players like Pawnce to beta test every concept in the PBE, maybe you won't see shit designs like this. If I actually once was allowed into the PBE I would test a few things, but instead they prioritize streamers who go on the PBE to troll people, just because they are steamers.
Jamaree1 votesHow about instead of allowing streamers to go on the PBE to never actually do what is intended, and allows players like Pawnce to beta test every concept in the PBE, maybe you won't see shit designs like this. If I actually once was allowed into the PBE I would test a few things, but instead they prioritize streamers who go on the PBE to troll people, just because they are steamers.
Yeah, you would be the one, then there would still be the pleothora of people who go on to enjoy free shit and not to test bugs and balance decisions on top of the fact your balance decisions would be rather bias.
Learnding1 votesYeah, you would be the one, then there would still be the pleothora of people who go on to enjoy free shit and not to test bugs and balance decisions on top of the fact your balance decisions would be rather bias.
The current system is good, no you're right. Instead of allowing people aspiring to actually test things, just give streamers and high ranked players the benefit of the doubt because that always works. We'll see in the next 2 to 3 years how each new champion is played out. Currently each champion has some sort of game-breaking technical fallacy, and there's probably thousands of more bugs not even earthed yet.
Meep Man1 votesThe main way in my opinion to make a champion feel satisfying is good visual effects while also being balanced. Fun to play as and against.
Brotha1 votesPlayed Volibear against Kalista. BOTRK+Roar+Triforce+Alacrity+Flash to get in range to apply all this I was unable to get in range of Kalista to even flip her.
The bitch has hops. And that passive needs a fucking cooldown idgaf. That many slows should have made her IMMOBILE instead I couldn't punish her poor positioning as she constantly kited back.. and front until she killed me. As a tank. Within 5 seconds. Because BOTRK+Last whisper are fair. Yes I'm salty.
Azir is easy to play against as long as you aren't melee or short ranged, in which case R . I . P
