riot doesnt want stable balance

squirrelah··8 votes·4,151 views

they purposefully overbuff/overnerf champions so it seems like their game has variety in professional play when it really doesnt. None of their changes for the past few years have ever pointed to them wanting to have a consistently balanced game where all the champions are equally as viable on the pro scene as others because it is MUCH easier to make 15 champions viable and then every few months buff and nerf 10 champions out of this rotation.

I just wish that they would come out and say that they do this on purpose and they generally make newer champions stronger on purpose instead of having the facade of trying to achieve actual balance. I seriously just cant believe that this is their actual goal(which they havent outright stated it but they have implied that they want most champions to be viable) because their actions dont support this.

20 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir12 votes

None of their changes for the past few years have ever pointed to them wanting to have a consistently balanced game where all the champions are equally as viable on the pro scene

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene. Though we obviously give consideration to balance on the pro level (even too much, I'm sure some would argue), there are many many more non pros than pro League of Legends players. If champions like Malzahar, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere were balanced around being seen in the pro scene, they might have a 60+% win rate in the average player's game.

SaltyKracka2 votes

Instead, they're just plain cancer whenever they show up in solo queue.

Ain't Heimer the fucking greatest?

squirrelah1 votes

{quoted}

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene. Though we obviously give consideration to balance on the pro level (even too much, I'm sure some would argue), there are many many more non pros than pro League of Legends players. If champions like Malzahar, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere were balanced around being seen in the pro scene, they might have a 60+% win rate in the average player's game.

yeah i realize thats the actual problem and i just disagree with that philosophy which is probably why i dont like riots design choices. I think champions SHOULD be designed around professional level of play. If you have a champion with a high skill cap and a low skill cap and you assume that players arent going to be able to fully access one champions power you get situations like kalista vs garen where one character can literally do nothing against the other character once both players reach a certain level of skill. Or situations where games can be carried by a single long range mage because no one thought that nidalee or xerath would be able to land that many skillshots.

Trying to acheive both is impossible unless you do what riot has been doing and basically designate an entire group of champions as "not allowed to be viable on pro scene" and another group that is.

Puri Puri Taric1 votes

{quoted}

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene. Though we obviously give consideration to balance on the pro level (even too much, I'm sure some would argue), there are many many more non pros than pro League of Legends players. If champions like Malzahar, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere were balanced around being seen in the pro scene, they might have a 60+% win rate in the average player's game.

i dont get it balance champs only on the pro scene and all the scrubs have to step up their game. its good training and i think its allright that way they gonna learn.

Basilysk3 votes

{quoted}

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene. Though we obviously give consideration to balance on the pro level (even too much, I'm sure some would argue), there are many many more non pros than pro League of Legends players. If champions like Malzahar, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere were balanced around being seen in the pro scene, they might have a 60+% win rate in the average player's game.

That's false because more people would play them even those who aren't good with them, which happens to every champ played in pro scene. Those champs right now are played by a small group from which 90% of them are used to play them/main them. If those were balanced for pro scene i would say the winrate would actually drop

Retillin1 votes

He does have a point on pro-level "champion diversity" though. I get that we never expected to see Garen/Heimerdinger in pro games. But when Gragas/Lee Sin/Ali/Gnar are in every pro game, we really have no choice but to believe that they get special treatment from Riot. If someone is seen on that level a lot, and then get buffs, well I don't know how to defend that without saying they are being treated like a special snow flake.

Angry Monster1 votes

The question is that if every champ was balenced for pro play would that make is so their are 0 noob traps? Also would that mean that their could be clear counters and options of picked champs?

If riot is deciding that X champs should be balenced for pro, X should be for bronze, and X for silver/gold; no wonder the community can not agree on what is strong and weak. Balance at pro play does not mean every champ is complicated just that every champ has true meaning.

I think that you are right that Riot does not have balence in mind for every champ at pro level. This is obvious when you look at Riot's stance on actual tank champs. Constantly nerfing their itemization cause of brusier (grag, elise, lee, ect) can use their items effectively.

UdoIkOSc4u1 votes

{quoted}

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene. Though we obviously give consideration to balance on the pro level (even too much, I'm sure some would argue), there are many many more non pros than pro League of Legends players. If champions like Malzahar, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere were balanced around being seen in the pro scene, they might have a 60+% win rate in the average player's game.

than what about champions like ahri who got the same win rate of heimerdinger while being picked in the lcs?

Keevalroy5 votes

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene.

LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Thresh, and Zed are all being buffed while tanks are being heart punched again next patch for no reason other than Riot wants to see the most flashy plays they can at Worlds. It might be your intention to have everyone balanced, but the balance team does not share that goal with the rest of Riot and continues to buff and nerf in accordance to what they want to see in the pro scene matches.

The pro scene should not impact balance decisions, they are professional players playing what's strong, but here's the problem: the balance team wants certain champions to be strong since they're fun to watch. The pro scene should NEVER come before the rest of us, and it has been for as long as I can remember.

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

This statement makes the assumption that our balance goals are aimed only at the pro scene. Though we obviously give consideration to balance on the pro level (even too much, I'm sure some would argue), there are many many more non pros than pro League of Legends players. If champions like Malzahar, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere were balanced around being seen in the pro scene, they might have a 60+% win rate in the average player's game.

Dota 2 was able to balance their game such that every hero is viable at all levels of play. Why is Riot unable to do the same? Well, they also do a better job at balancing melee vs ranged interactions since that seems to be the biggest problem LoL seems to have that every other game seems able to balance.

Koldheartedjsp5 votes

older champions, unless their kit was overloaded/incredibly unique when they came out, will NEVER be as viable as the newer ones. Their kits simply just don't do enough things.

Garen will never be able to be played as much as lee sin, yasuo, ekko, etc. He simply just doesn't do enough in the game anymore.

squirrelah2 votes

{quoted}

older champions, unless their kit was overloaded/incredibly unique when they came out, will NEVER be as viable as the newer ones. Their kits simply just don't do enough things.

Garen will never be able to be played as much as lee sin, yasuo, ekko, etc. He simply just doesn't do enough in the game anymore.

not true. binary champions can be balance as long as they are strong in specific areas that other champions are not. Riot has failed at doing this and any time a champion achieves this and becomes strong in a unique way they overnerf it because like i said they want 15 champions to be viable. 95% of the time those champions have everything needed to succeed(no discernable weakness) and the only reason they are played is because at hte moment they are numerically stronger than the other champion who is similar.

Koldheartedjsp1 votes

this simply isn't true.

take warwick for example

without some sort of drastic change/meta shift, there just simply isn't enough he brings to a team to warrant picking him over someone else. There just aren't enough things in his kit that can be changed without drastically changing warwick as a champion

squirrelah1 votes

{quoted}

this simply isn't true.

take warwick for example

without some sort of drastic change/meta shift, there just simply isn't enough he brings to a team to warrant picking him over someone else. There just aren't enough things in his kit that can be changed without drastically changing warwick as a champion

warwick used to be good but they overnerfed him because of item changes that werent even permanent.

They changed jungle items, on hit effects made him really strong along with the jungle being more favorable to him.

they nerfed warwick in multiple ways at the same time(nerfed his w and his ult)

they changed smite to be less effective with on hit people like warwick

didnt revert any of the changes

The reason hes bad now is because his numbers are insanely low due to being broken due to an item. He could definitely be viable, there was a gambit series where he drew bans because they built a comp that fit using warwick top(this wasl ike season 3 though i think). No other champion in the game has an on target medium range CC thats also a healtank.

Koldheartedjsp1 votes

"without some sort of drastic change/meta shift"

WW was good in a very specific meta or after the release of a specific item (feral flair, old release devourer starting at a high magic damage)

He isn't like lee sin, ahri, and a few others that will always be viable simply due to their kits having more in them.

I'd like older champions to be viable and for most champions to all have an equal amount of viability, but it simply isn't a realistic scenario.

squirrelah1 votes

{quoted}

"without some sort of drastic change/meta shift" y WW was good in a very specific meta or after the release of a specific item (feral flair, old release devourer starting at a high magic damage)

He isn't like lee sin, ahri, and a few others that will always be viable simply due to their kits having more in them.

I'd like older champions to be viable and for most champions to all have an equal amount of viability, but it simply isn't a realistic scenario.

yeah that is true. Riot has made too many champions that can do everything. The problem isnt people like garen or warwick arent viable the problem is you have to actually build a composition around them and you can only play them in certain situations and thats much more difficult to pull off. especially in things like lcs games where you need to be at a certain standard of mechanics that requires practice that you simply cant do for 10 diff champions. Not only that but the way their system is set up encourages sticking to the meta. All of the teams that are high enough calibre for them to practice against are the same teams they will be playing against in the lcs so theres no point in them practicing gimmicky one game comps because in order to do that they give away the secret.

honestly riot couldve and probably could still do this if they deleted most of certainlyts champions. There are new champions that dont have this problem and actually do what i was talking about really well(like braum for example, he has a very specific role and hes not completely overloaded.)

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

warwick used to be good but they overnerfed him because of item changes that werent even permanent.

They changed jungle items, on hit effects made him really strong along with the jungle being more favorable to him.

they nerfed warwick in multiple ways at the same time(nerfed his w and his ult)

they changed smite to be less effective with on hit people like warwick

didnt revert any of the changes

The reason hes bad now is because his numbers are insanely low due to being broken due to an item. He could definitely be viable, there was a gambit series where he drew bans because they built a comp that fit using warwick top(this wasl ike season 3 though i think). No other champion in the game has an on target medium range CC thats also a healtank.

http://champion.gg/champion/Warwick/Jungle

He has the highest win rate in plat and up among junglers. along with a pretty high pick rate. Warwick is extremely strong right now. In Solo Q, at least. He isn't used in pro play because he has nearly zero impact before he hits level six, but in disorganized play he's a fucking king.

Shonjl1 votes

But then you have SAted Devourer and WW has become the top 3 best junglers. So you were saying? Him Shy and Elise are top 3 atm, followed closely by Yi and Diana.

Declined2 votes
Lord Boltrix1 votes

The thing is, how exactly do you propose balancing the game among the champions?

The way things are, some champions will always be relevant, while others may pop in and out of popularity. In an ever-shifting game where numbers are constantly adjusted, mechanics are added and removed, the items may change, and even the very Summoner's Rift may change.

Yes, Lee Sin can do quite a lot for a champion who has a traditional ultimate (unlike say Nidalee, Elise, or Jayce who sacrifice a traditional ultimate for more abilities), and it can frustrate those who play a champion who lacks the ability to easily clear walls like he can, but that is his gimmick, he can be all over the place. The trade-off is that to make the best of his kit, he has to go all-in, even if it could mean his death at the hands of a better team who can cripple him with just a measly silence? What is a Lee Sin going to do if he tries to Q to the enemy team's Sona, then gets silenced and knocked up by their Cho'Gath, and then cursed by Mordekaiser and turned into a ghost, but other than a Gangplank who runs Cleanse, what champion could deal with that situation?

Lee Sin is extremely ability reliant, a silence alone ruins him in a way it would not ruin, say... a Warwick. A Warwick who is disabled by a silence still has auto-attacks, so in the time a silence begins and ends, he can still auto-attack a few times, which is where the source of most of his damage comes from. The trade-off is that unless the enemy is positioned in such a way, he would not be able to just wall-jump to get to an enemy without his ultimate. The reason Lee Sin is favored in LCS is because at that level, the single largest priority is simply to not die, and Lee Sin is very good as avoiding death via escape, which is why Lee Sin sees more LCS play than Warwick would. Save for a team comp built around a Warwick, or a comp that Warwick heavily compliments, a Lee Sin jungling would be preferred over a Warwick jungle because a Warwick isn't as good as getting away as, say, a Lee Sin would be.

Ahri? Good at escaping. Leblanc? Good at escaping (why do you think Faker was undefeated with her for the longest time). Lucian? Good at escaping. Renekton? Good at escaping. Riven? Good at escaping.

All those champions I listed are not only good at escaping, their escapes are dashes that don't require an enemy to interact with. A Kalista is not going to escape from the enemy team unless she has someone hard-chasing her who she can kite off of, so her escape is not as favorable as say, a Lucian who has an unconditional dash only limited by mana and eventually only by cooldown. Balancing the game at the LCS level is not the same as balancing at the normal ranked or unranked level, because the mentalities are so different that you might as well be playing another game.

An LCS team would rather a strategy with 90% effectiveness even if it never got them a single kill on the enemy team, rather than a 50% effectiveness strategy of simply fighting the enemy team. Their desire to win supersedes any arbitrary score like a KDA, your KDA of 40/0/20 is not the same as last-hitting the enemy nexus. At our level? We aren't in the LCS, we don't get anything beyond an increase in our rank (in ranked play only) or a sense of personal accomplishment, so we seek to get the best KDA because it's the only way to validate ourselves, deep down regardless of what we say, most of us often would rather consistently go 20/5/10 and lose than go 2/4/5 consistently and win, even if this was to continue for the end of time.

That is why it's impossible to compare balance around LCS with balance around normal/ranked.

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