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Here is for "Conqueror is just 20% penetration" guys.

GigglesO··80 votes·20,740 views

So I took some time to summarize why conqueror is actually unhealthy. I put it in a nice graph since I know people don't want to read alot. 20% damage converted to true damage vs 20% armor pen.

This is on someone that has 300 ad. (note both cases includes conquerors level 18 +36 damage)

https://i.imgur.com/AXJW9Ux.jpg

Conqueror should be changed to armor pen. Not only is it healthier for the game, tanks can actually still build armor into it. Either that or its balance point should be moved towards being a niche pick against high armor targets.

Please riot conqueror really is too good against all armor. It needs changing.

Edit: Alot of people are asking for the really long winded formula. I never actually made the long ass formula. I just did a series of small ones in excel

Here is what the table looks like. (note the damage dealt is with the 36 ad from conqueror as if you had 0 armor.) https://i.imgur.com/UkpLmVn.jpg

Keep in mind the damage before conqueror column removes the 36 ad. Thats why in the 100 armor area you see 150 instead of 168. That was the table for conqueror damage with 20% true damage.

Here is the 20% pen https://i.imgur.com/tu8jbER.jpg

Edit #2 I also had to assume a damage value, which is why I stated 300 ad (+36 with conqueror) because the increases decrease the more damage you have. For example if you had 100ad vs 100 armor conqueror would increase your damage by 63.2% between the added 36 ad and the 20% true damage. Realistically you wouldn't be as high of level and would only get something like +14 ad and then it sees almost exactly the same increase. Unless you are using spells instead of autos, in which case you would need to change a few numbers around to show the damage done by the ability rather than the raw +36 damage increase.

Edit 3: Someone pointed out that conqueror only gives 35ad (my bad guys 1 ad off) I redid the tables and it lowers the % increase by .4. Yes thats .4% off which I mean is error, but we should probably also talk about rounding errors too then. As you may or may not know my data only includes 10 numbers and trailing decimals. I should probably do some truncated rounding to make sure that we round off any of that shit too.

Good news. The graph is literally identical, and still shows the same god damn thing.

158 Comments

breakordoom44430 votes

true damage tied to barely anything is not ok, something like (deal 20 extra true damage) is fine or darius true damage execution (it is an execution) seems quite balenced and tops of a little damage to get the real effect, conq just says "no, fuck you and your armor bs"

but armor pen makes me sick as well.

DragonShea4 votes

{quoted}

true damage tied to barely anything is not ok, something like (deal 20 extra true damage) is fine or darius true damage execution (it is an execution) seems quite balenced and tops of a little damage to get the real effect, conq just says "no, fuck you and your armor bs"

but armor pen makes me sick as well.

Trust me mate, conqueror would be better if it gave 20% armor pen instead of true damage conversion. because you are not taking extra damage that isn't mitigated.

Using the OP's example, lets say you have 300 armor and take 300 damage from an a conqueror attack, the formula would this:

(300+35) x ((100) / (300+100)) x 0.8+300 x 0.2 ▸ 127.

But if conqueror as make into % armor pen then you would take this amount of damage:

(300+35) x ((100) / (300+100)) x 0 .8 ▸ 67.

As you can see, your nearly dealing double damage and that is the reason why it's so powerful. It makes building resistances useless.

Kuponya1 votes

Perhaps you should finish your math classes and learn how to use equations properly. Making arguments is fine, throwing random data you don't understand into your argument makes you a laughing stock

sinZsoul10 votes

You know you can just correct him instead of saying that right?

Rathar Dashing3 votes

Your math is a little iffy there, but you're right.

335 damage after Conq comes out to 150.75 134 damage, and after 20% pen becomes 98 damage.

Edit: I stand corrected, made a small mistake. Should have shown my work.

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-02T17:36:03.400+0000)

Your math is a little iffy there, but you're right.

335 damage after Conq comes out to 150.75 damage, and after 20% pen becomes 98 damage.

How come? Does conq not ignore 20% of the damage you do. out of the 335 damage you do, 67 of that is unmitigated and 80% of that is affected by armor. 335*100/(100+300) x 0.8 is 67 so combined the total damage is 134.

Edit#1 I made the mistake of not including the extra 35 ad on the true damage it's not 127 but 134.

Edit#2 335 damage with 20% armor pen is 98 damage (98.5294 to be exact)

Rathar Dashing2 votes

My bad, let me show my work and correct myself.

335 damage with conqueror: 20% of that becomes true damage, so 67. Then, the next 80% of it, 268, gets divided by 4 due to 300 armor. In other words, it becomes 335 * 0.8 * (100/(100+300))=67. This comes out to 134. My original mistake was adding the full amount to the mitigated damage section, instead of only 80% of it.

Then, for armor penetration: 335 damage against 300 armor, 300 armor gets reduced to 240, equation changes to 335*(100/(100+240))=98.5294 I did a little rounding in my original post but I was still correct here. Your equation doesn't reduce a target's armor, but it actually just reduces their damage by 20%. Without either pen stat a target with 300 armor would take 335/4=83.75 damage.

Ragnaveil3 votes

Its fine if it doesn't scale on waves anymore. Its kinda the reason why no one wants to fight nor deal with a Conqueror user. They just stack it on waves without any issues. They remove that and make it a rune that scales with champ combat, and things will be more balanced.

WoΘxer28 votes

Just remove Conqueror and bring back Fervor of Battle.

Xavanic8 votes

You know marksman have an item that does the same thing as conqueror right?

Febos71 votes

{quoted}

You know marksman have an item that does the same thing as conqueror right?

item 3031

  • Costs 3400 G
  • Only works with critical strikes
  • Converts 10% of critical strike damage to true damage

Conqueror:

  • Costs 1 keystone slot
  • Works with any type of damage
  • Converts 20% of the damage to true damage

Calling them "equal" is a big strech. IE and Conqueror are not all at equal. But there's more:

  • With IE you actually need to itemize for critical strikes. If you want 100% uptime of your IE value, then you'd need 50% base critical strike chance. You're looking at 3 items worth of gold, not just IE cost.

  • IE only works with on-hit effects, ie basic attacks, unlike Conqueror.

  • IE has "infinite" uptime if you have 100% critical strike chance. Conqueror can get there too, theoretically, as long as you keep attacking your target and assuming you're melee.

  • Champions that take Conqueror are usually buying more defense than offense, or a mix of both, meaning they're more durable than the champions buying IE. In other words, you can build more tanky and deal almost has much damage as someone with IE.

  • Conqueror can be stacked while fighting minions and monsters. It also only need 4 seconds to be fully stacked and "out of combat" only kicks in after 5 seconds. In other words, you can hit a minion and walk up to your target. By the time you reach them it will be fully stacked.

I'm not taking sides on Conqueror balancing. I'm just explaining why saying Conqueror is the same as IE is a big overlook.

Xavanic7 votes

{quoted}

item 3031

  • Costs 3400 G
  • Only works with critical strikes
  • Converts 10% of critical strike damage to true damage

Conqueror:

  • Costs 1 keystone slot
  • Works with any type of damage
  • Converts 20% of the damage to true damage

Calling them "equal" is a big strech. IE and Conqueror are not all at equal. But there's more:

  • With IE you actually need to itemize for critical strikes. If you want 100% uptime of your IE value, then you'd need 50% base critical strike chance. You're looking at 3 items worth of gold, not just IE cost.

  • IE only works with on-hit effects, ie basic attacks, unlike Conqueror.

  • IE has "infinite" uptime if you have 100% critical strike chance. Conqueror can get there too, theoretically, as long as you keep attacking your target and assuming you're melee.

  • Champions that take Conqueror are usually buying more defense than offense, or a mix of both, meaning they're more durable than the champions buying IE. In other words, you can build more tanky and deal almost has much damage as someone with IE.

  • Conqueror can be stacked while fighting minions and monsters.

I'm not taking sides on Conqueror balancing. I'm just explaining why saying Conqueror is the same as IE is a big overlook.

that's how its always been with melee vs ranged tho....ranged get the short end of the stick since their overloaded as fuck already

Febos16 votes

{quoted}

that's how its always been with melee vs ranged tho....ranged get the short end of the stick since their overloaded as fuck already

How has that have anything to do with what I said?

{quoted}

You know marksman have an item that does the same thing as conqueror right?

This is straight out wrong.

About the "they are overloaded" part. You can't justify bad decisions with other bad decisions. It's not up to me to say if ADCs are overloaded or not, but you can't say "It's okay for Conqueror to be busted because something else is also busted".

I know you didn't literally say that, but you implied. Anyway, I don't have an opinion about Conqueror nor ADCs. Just clarifying why both your statements aren't great.

Thefrostyviking7 votes

{quoted}

that's how its always been with melee vs ranged tho....ranged get the short end of the stick since their overloaded as fuck already

Ranged? Overloaded?

Camille Yasuo Irelia says hello.

Xavanic4 votes

{quoted}

Ranged? Overloaded?

Camille Yasuo Irelia says hello.

Funny enough, i find Lucian Graves Vayne Kaisa more problematic then anyone else, no matter what i do they always snowball and are beyond hard to kill...

Thefrostyviking6 votes

{quoted}

Funny enough, i find Lucian Graves Vayne Kaisa more problematic then anyone else, no matter what i do they always snowball and are beyond hard to kill...

Overloaded and problematic are different things.

Lucians design is in effect, simple.

But when you put a lanebully with a easy way to be aggressive in a lane with slow scaling-early weak champs its no wonder he constantly pops off and snowballs to carry hard, even with a kit that only really contains a short dash, two low damage abilities, lesser speed boost and a channeled high damage ult.

But when a champ snowballs the first thing to go out the window is common sense, especially on a damage carry who then effectively kills anyone near them......which is why Lucian spends half his time under a season completely useless or pretty much broken/OP.

Not even sure i want to call graves ranged, half his gameplay seems to going into some´s face, auto-Q-auto-R and having them explode, only time he ever kites anything is in the early levels.

Vayne is overloaded though, her powerbudget is completely blown to the skies with max HP true damage+ult AD+invis steroid that relies on her effectively spamming a short dash.

Sure she is single target unlike say kog who can melt 3 targets at once but she has nowhere near the same survival problems.

Kai sa isnt a problem i think, since she is easily fixed at any time by just adjusting her numbers a little here and there, being much more ability reliant than any other marksman makes her gameplay and balancing a lot more gratifying.

I mean does any other marksman need like 5 hits+landing a slow skillshot+isolating a target for a Q in the manner she does?

It stings to admit it but her gameplay is far more interactive than say Ashe or cait or MF.

Tahminatrix 23 votes

Not to mention item 3143 is intentionally coded to reduce the true damage from item 3031 to keep that item in check.

LTK KoRo2 votes

it reduces true damage from Conqueror crits too...

Infernape24 votes

Which affects two of the umpteen amount of champions that use Conqueror.

Ragnaveil3 votes

Basically.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Which affects two of the umpteen amount of champions that use Conqueror.

3 Draven Yasuo Tryndamere

Tahminatrix 4 votes

FOUR Jhin

Idk I just felt like saying four, what are we talking about? -Jhin

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

item 3031

  • Costs 3400 G
  • Only works with critical strikes
  • Converts 10% of critical strike damage to true damage

Conqueror:

  • Costs 1 keystone slot
  • Works with any type of damage
  • Converts 20% of the damage to true damage

Calling them "equal" is a big strech. IE and Conqueror are not all at equal. But there's more:

  • With IE you actually need to itemize for critical strikes. If you want 100% uptime of your IE value, then you'd need 50% base critical strike chance. You're looking at 3 items worth of gold, not just IE cost.

  • IE only works with on-hit effects, ie basic attacks, unlike Conqueror.

  • IE has "infinite" uptime if you have 100% critical strike chance. Conqueror can get there too, theoretically, as long as you keep attacking your target and assuming you're melee.

  • Champions that take Conqueror are usually buying more defense than offense, or a mix of both, meaning they're more durable than the champions buying IE. In other words, you can build more tanky and deal almost has much damage as someone with IE.

  • Conqueror can be stacked while fighting minions and monsters. It also only need 4 seconds to be fully stacked and "out of combat" only kicks in after 5 seconds. In other words, you can hit a minion and walk up to your target. By the time you reach them it will be fully stacked.

I'm not taking sides on Conqueror balancing. I'm just explaining why saying Conqueror is the same as IE is a big overlook.

IE needs 2 zeal items as well to do true damage on every auto like Conqueror

So to get True Damage on every AA it's 2800 + 2800 + 3400 = 9,000 gold.

Rathar Dashing3 votes

Well, not if you're Yasuo or Tryndemere, then you can save some gold. Yasuo only needs PD+IE, for 6200 gold, and Tryndemere only needs IE+Zeal, for 4700. You could technically also buy Stormrazor and always wait for the proc to be up, then you'd only need 6200 gold, too.

Daddy Ants3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VWuzNBo6,comment-id=0001000000030000,timestamp=2019-01-02T17:45:48.780+0000)

Well, not if you're Yasuo or Tryndemere, then you can save some gold. Yasuo only needs PD+IE, for 6200 gold, and Tryndemere only needs IE+Zeal, for 4700. You could technically also buy Stormrazor and always wait for the proc to be up, then you'd only need 6200 gold, too.

I'm speaking as an ADC player, I'm aware of Yasuo and Tryndamere.

Hibeki7 votes

Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason)

I like that bruisers are strong, its just some problem champs in particular making things shit Irelia Camille Fiora

Ragnaveil13 votes

Fiora's kit in general with all the true damage and the vital mechanic is what makes her weak and strong. Had they taken the time to remove the mechanic for something healthier, she'd probably see better days.

Hibeki4 votes

I totally agree, the minigame is totally uninteractable on the victim end (no reward for not letting her hit it, in fact in some ways its a punishment), and max health true damage is cancer in general.

kevin hokage1 votes

{quoted}

Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason)

I like that bruisers are strong, its just some problem champs in particular making things shit Irelia Camille Fiora

how is camille a problem champ?? i mean she doesn't even take conqueror, she usually takes pta, her kits overloaded but she's practically forced into the jungle

Hibeki7 votes

Overstatted champs with 1600 range dashes will always be a problem

Sp33d Zer02 votes

Yes, but how is she a problem with Conqueror specifically.

Not saying she isn't a problem in her own way, but how does she make conqueror more problematic with how her kit already is?

Hibeki2 votes

People refer to bruisers being too cancer because of conqueror, when in reality its just a couple bruisers need put in their place.

GigglesO3 votes

"Bruisers" MasterYi Yasuo Tryndamere are the 3 biggest abusers of it.

All 3 are in the class of melee carries, aka not bruiser.

I will give you this one for free Jax He is an inteded target, but it again makes him too strong.

Hibeki2 votes

And two of those are cancer design in themself. Tryndamere not so much, but he could use a rework to remove just pure stat check.

Yi already has true damage on hit and yasuo already has like 40% armor pen, conq just makes it worse.

Febos1 votes

{quoted}

Just fyi, conqueror basically cant be used on range champs (for good reason)

False. Ranged champions can use Conqueror too. What they can't do is refresh the buff duration. Read the description of the keystone.

Thanks for incorrecting me.

Hibeki2 votes

Name a single ranged champion that uses conqueror other than Draven because he doesnt have a keystone.

You can't because there are none. Conqueror was made to be garbage on range champs specifically.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

item 3031

  • Costs 3400 G
  • Only works with critical strikes
  • Converts 10% of critical strike damage to true damage

Conqueror:

  • Costs 1 keystone slot
  • Works with any type of damage
  • Converts 20% of the damage to true damage

Calling them "equal" is a big strech. IE and Conqueror are not all at equal. But there's more:

  • With IE you actually need to itemize for critical strikes. If you want 100% uptime of your IE value, then you'd need 50% base critical strike chance. You're looking at 3 items worth of gold, not just IE cost.

  • IE only works with on-hit effects, ie basic attacks, unlike Conqueror.

  • IE has "infinite" uptime if you have 100% critical strike chance. Conqueror can get there too, theoretically, as long as you keep attacking your target and assuming you're melee.

  • Champions that take Conqueror are usually buying more defense than offense, or a mix of both, meaning they're more durable than the champions buying IE. In other words, you can build more tanky and deal almost has much damage as someone with IE.

  • Conqueror can be stacked while fighting minions and monsters. It also only need 4 seconds to be fully stacked and "out of combat" only kicks in after 5 seconds. In other words, you can hit a minion and walk up to your target. By the time you reach them it will be fully stacked.

I'm not taking sides on Conqueror balancing. I'm just explaining why saying Conqueror is the same as IE is a big overlook.

you cant complain about conqueror and defend i.e. at the same time.

10% damage of an adc is a shitload. especially on a crit. ive taken 1500 true damage and upwards in fights from adc with infinity edge.

Tobykachu3 votes

I.E was also very problematic for tanks, but is getting changed very soon so props to Riot for that.

Lhuhz5 votes

IE isn't being changed because it's problematic against tanks, IE is being changed because whole crit itemization is being changed even though I think that it's a bad idea.

Bârd7 votes

Conquerer should just be reworked.

It suffers from the same problem as Fervor of Battle and Deathfire Touch: it's boring as shit.

It's just a passive general damage increase that needs to be powercrept to seem interesting.

Mael Jade6 votes

I actually heard someone say that Darius is fine with Conqueror. He only has 35% innate armor pen, builds 24% from black cleaver and gets 20% true damage conversion on top of that from Conqueror. Maybe a bit to much. Just like Garen having 50% armor shred with 1 item.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

play darius without conq and with BC come back to me again after you tickled enemies a bit before you got blown to pieces.

Noone plays toplane, noone plays toplane bruisers you guys talk and talk and don't even realize how needed conq is as long as defense is so busted compared to the amount of pen/steroids bruiser gets.

When pre conq darius would literally get rightclicked to death by ornn, mao, cho.

Conq gives equal playing field and darius actually can win against tanks (note he still can get hard destroyed by ornn, cho, poppy).

Ragnaveil2 votes

which have a shit ton of max health damage, which begs the question: Why. Tanks are meant to absorb damage to good lengths, not be these cc train max health damage beefballs. I seriously don't get why they had to do that just because tank v tank was a wet noodle. Ofc it would be, do they want nuke vs nuke instead?

GigglesO2 votes

That part always confuses me.

Why did we reduce tanks survive ability just to make them bruisers with more cc?

Ragnaveil2 votes

Beats me. I just want to play Mao for fucks sake. I can't when everyone and their mother invalidates my existence lmao.

SithesisLord2 votes

Because all they have is base damage?

Because resistance purchases reduce tank damage the hardest?

Because they need to be more than meat shields and CC threats?

XeroKimo5 votes

Here's a desmos with the equations, couldn't think of the actual graph equation so deal with looking at some hard values

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jkmazzt5sm

Edit: Actual graphs https://www.desmos.com/calculator/w8ggo6nimb

Edit edit: If you'd like to see the damage increase in the graphs better, just multiply the % damage increase by 10 or 100

KoKoboto5 votes

One nerf I would really like to see to conqueror is for it to only start building up when fighting champions.

ZaneShadow4 votes

Wow, nice work! I like the effort to actually provide details behind your arguments. Thank you for writing this.

Meany Sting2 votes

{quoted}

So I took some time to summarize why conqueror is actually unhealthy. I put it in a nice graph since I know people don't want to read alot. 20% damage converted to true damage vs 20% armor pen.

This is on someone that has 300 ad. (note both cases includes conquerors level 18 +36 damage)

https://i.imgur.com/AXJW9Ux.jpg

Conqueror should be changed to armor pen. Not only is it healthier for the game, tanks can actually still build armor into it. Either that or its balance point should be moved towards being a niche pick against high armor targets.

Please riot conqueror really is too good against all armor. It needs changing.

Honestly, if you think 20% armor pen is good I don't know what to say. It is bad in lane and worth less then 300 ussualy before people buy any armor, as flat pen early is better and 20% lategame is nothing Darius has inbuilt armor pen, as does renekton,yasuo etc.

If you actually wanted to balance it, the way to go would be like 40% bonus armor penetration if not 50%.

It would have no effect exept bonus AD vs people who didn't get any armor. It would allow dealing with 300 armor tanks by reducing it to about 200-220 armor. And the more armor a tank would get the more effective conqerorors would be. It wouldnt fuck over squishy champs at all considering most of them maybe only get GA or zhonyas only as defensive armor item.

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