Am I the only one that thought the "mage update" was meant to.. increase the power of mages..?

Scrimshäw·Apr 7, 2016·198 votes·26,449 views

the item changes have showed me that it's actually a global nerf to them.

323 Comments

QuephaApr 7, 201688 votes

Yes. Riot said repeatedly that the update was about distinguishing mages and making them healthier.

Just like every class update, it has nothing to do with power, they are trying to fix fundamental game health problems with the class.

Although I don't see how giving Annie a dash makes her weaker.

ScrimshäwApr 7, 201618 votes

marksman update...?

QuephaApr 7, 2016106 votes

[{quoted}](name=Treasure Goblin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VVoFcWc0,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-07T18:16:46.930+0000)

marksman update...?

Was mainly about distinguishing marksman, the power of marksman champions is up to the balance team after-the-fact.

The update team is not the balance team, they don't care about balance.

Sahn UzalApr 7, 201686 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif summoner 31

Vellich0rApr 7, 20169 votes

And for that matter, these changes seem like they are fundamentally beneficial for mages as a class. Giving increased access to CDR and mana means as a stat affinity is really beneficial for most mages.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 201657 votes

It's not meant to just increase the power of mages. It's meant to help distinguish them from other mages both strategically and in gameplay, while also attempting to address some game health issues at the same time.

I'm really only speaking as to my perspective on the mages I'm currently working on (Cassiopeia and Malzahar), but if they release substantially stronger than they are currently, I'll be somewhat disappointed in their release state. The champions, and the items they use, are undergoing enough change that they should be a bit harder or a bit less familiar to play in the short term, with the gain of longer term differentiation and mastery. That's not to say I want any of them to release weak, but if Malzahar drops from his current high winrate into something lower than his historical average (at least for the short term while learning curve kicks in), I'd consider that a good sign more than an indication of him being too weak.

XyirxApr 7, 201646 votes

I couldn't understand why there aren't more AP-Armor options for the mages. Apparently, they need these the most after Marksmen update. To see Zhonya's being nerfed in damage and active cooldown, it's even more depressing. Mages don't necessarily need cheaper items. They actually need better slot-efficient items.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 201654 votes

Zhonya's feels like a pretty solid buy from my experiences testing the item. Sure, it's less AP and the cooldown may be changed, but the addition of CDR and earlier access to the active due to lower cost has its upsides as well. I feel like the fact that there are so many mage items with Health on them makes Zhonya's have really strong synergy with those items now. Your effective Health against physical attackers is pretty decent with a good-size Health pool and the Armor from Zhonya's, and that's even before the active comes into play.

hopeful4Apr 7, 20167 votes

May i ask why when you create an item with an active that provides CC, you always go with slows? Slows are honestly the most bland, beaten and overused item active in this game. So many different types of CC and you go with the goddamn slow everytime.

QuephaApr 7, 201620 votes

{quoted}

May i ask why when you create an item with an active that provides CC, you always go with slows? Slows are honestly the most bland, beaten and overused item active in this game. So many different types of CC and you go with the goddamn slow everytime.

because everything stronger than a slow is really, really strong.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 201617 votes

I don't really have an insightful answer to this one honestly, as I don't work very heavily in item creation, but more-so in creating champions that will interact with them.

My Waifu VanillaApr 7, 20164 votes

Because if you go with say.....a stun. Even if it were for 1 second you can have an entire team stun 1 person for 5 seconds if need be while still having the rest of their kit intact. Slows don't break the game while potentially giving EVERY champion a potential stun/root would be catastrophic. Imagine Master Yi with an item that rooted or stunned you. Imagine supposed to be kite able champions with a stun or champions that ALREADY excel in 1v1s with a stun/root (Vayne, Yi, Trynd, fuck even someone like Swain could benefit from an AP root/stun item to land free Ws).

XonraApr 7, 201660 votes

{quoted}

Zhonya's feels like a pretty solid buy from my experiences testing the item. Sure, it's less AP and the cooldown may be changed, but the addition of CDR and earlier access to the active due to lower cost has its upsides as well. I feel like the fact that there are so many mage items with Health on them makes Zhonya's have really strong synergy with those items now. Your effective Health against physical attackers is pretty decent with a good-size Health pool and the Armor from Zhonya's, and that's even before the active comes into play.

Mages buy Zhonyas for the active and the Armor (as there are crap all choices itemization wise for mages against say, Zed, compared to how many options you've given Marksman, plus all the lifesteal, AND removing spellvamp on top of it all).

Nerfing the AP instantly makes it less attractive

Then raising the cooldown on the active just frustrates the issue

It is NOT the item that should have had cdr added to it in the first place quite frankly, and especially not at the cost of what was nerfed essentially.

HauntApr 7, 201616 votes

{quoted}

Mages buy Zhonyas for the active and the Armor (as there are crap all choices itemization wise for mages against say, Zed).

Nerfing the AP instantly makes it less attractive

Then raising the cooldown on the active just frustrates the issue

It is NOT the item that should have had cdr added to it in the first place quite frankly, and especially not at the cost of what was nerfed essentially.

Are we going to ignore the price reduction and it's great synergy with these new other items? Why do you people think you should have several different items to be able "to compete with someone like Zed"? I see no problems in my elo with people that counter AD mids. Take exhaust, take barrier, play safe, rush counter items, don't have a team full of squishies.

It is not hard.

AMYS GRAVEApr 7, 201618 votes

Why does zed get several different items to be able to compete with mages?

item 3155 item 3156 item 3071 item 3102 item 3139 item 3111

but not the other way around?

item 3157 item 3047

Take exhaust, take barrier, play safe, rush counter items, don't have a team full of squishies.

also ftfy

And counting boots is being generous.

HauntApr 7, 201647 votes

{quoted}

Why does zed get several different items to be able to compete with mages?

but not the other way around?

also ftfy

Hexdrinker and Maw are the same item, you're just finding things to straw pick at this point.

Black cleaver isn't a counter VS AP, it's vs every burst.

Banshees? Really? How about you get a randuins? How about you get a Deadmans on AP melees? How about a Gauntlet? A sunfire? You're gonna list banshees, but you're not going to say you can build armor items yourself? You're not gonna say spirit visage if you say banshees? Why banshees and not spirit visage? You said Hexdrinker AND maw after all, so by your logic it makes sense.

You got me on mecurial, but people don't rush that. They get it because of hard CC, not really for MR.

3TWarriorApr 7, 201613 votes

actually, hexdrinker and maw are not the same item. they perform the same purpose and maw upgrades from hexdrinker, but maw of malmortius is an extremely stat efficient item with its passive

both serve the purpose of anti-burst but for different stages of the game

the problem, however, is that it is never a bad choice to build hexdrinker unless you are facing an AD or true damage mid

HauntApr 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

actually, hexdrinker and maw are not the same item. they perform the same purpose and maw upgrades from hexdrinker, but maw of malmortius is an extremely stat efficient item with its passive

both serve the purpose of anti-burst but for different stages of the game

the problem, however, is that it is never a bad choice to build hexdrinker unless you are facing an AD or true damage mid

If he is going to say maw and hexdrinker are the same item, he better say Zhonyas and Seekers are the same item, because that is horrible bias. It is never a bad choice to go seekers>zhonyas as an AP mid either if you know how to manage mana with 2 doran's rings.

InHaruhiWeTrustApr 7, 20169 votes

big difference between item 3155 and item 3156 vs item 3191 and item 3157 . if had the active then you would have a point. until zhonyas is finished you are very weak since the components are horrible rush items. Maw on the other hand has great components since you can get the mr and passive early with hexdrinker +some dmg or you can go for more dmg and armor pen if you don't think you need the defence yet and counters the already super weak seekers armguard at the same time(if they rush zhonyas). I hate zhonyas personally. i rarely buy it because it feels so bad to build. 99% of the reason i absolutely HATE zed is because he forces me to buy this item. i would be completely fine if it was removed, but i know that some champ(none that i use) depend on it.

RatbertApr 7, 20166 votes

You mean the price reduction to what I hear is the exact same pre-nerf price, complete with a half a minute increase in active cooldown, 30 less ap, and only 10% cdr to make up for it. (Net loss of 50 ap and 5 armor, I believe)

It doesn't synergize much more with any item than say, steraks and maw, or death's dance and phantom dancer.

HauntApr 7, 201611 votes

{quoted}

You mean the price reduction to what I hear is the exact same pre-nerf price, complete with a half a minute increase in active cooldown, 30 less ap, and only 10% cdr to make up for it. (Net loss of 50 ap and 5 armor, I believe)

It doesn't synergize much more with any item than say, steraks and maw, or death's dance and phantom dancer.

Oh ok. So when Zhonyas is nerfed, everyone says the price is raised INCREDIBLY HIGH. But when it is changed back, it's "just OK and mediocre." That makes sense. It won't be up literally EVERY fight you attend? You have to think about waiting on engaging for it's cooldown? One of the best actives in the game as a wait time now? This is a huge problem?

So the HP you get from this new dash item doesn't synergize?

The HP from other items don't?

The CDR doesn't?

The fact that AP items are more easily accessible now, so the AP loss isn't as bad as you think? This new dash item that has a TON of things included upon purchase in itself isn't a major buff to APs?

The synergization isn't maw+steraks tier, but it's there. You're all jumping the gun WAY too hard here.

Vistha KaiApr 7, 201613 votes

The new dash item will most likely be scrapped ANYWAY.

Plus Zhonya has nearly HALF the AP before all those unfounded nerfs. The cost decrease doesn't even come close to compensate for it.

WarlockLawApr 7, 201628 votes

Let's take a sample lane match up Zed vs Lissandra

No Zed has a couple options going into this matchup. He can build item 3142 for high burst vs anyone and roams. Or he can build item 3139 or item 3156 if he wants to itemize defensively vs his lane opponent.

Meanwhile Liss has item 3027 for her core rush and item 3157 for defensive itemization.

Zed gets 3 good item options, but Liss gets only 2. Now Riot is going to effectively nerf both of these items for this matchup as the increased active cd and lower AP outweigh the cdr and cost reduction. Riot isn't even adding further itemization options so this turns into a large nerf. This is why people are concerned here. If they want to heavily adjust these items to give more/different benefits at the cost of some of the current strengths, then at least give us extra options to choose from.

HauntApr 7, 201614 votes

{quoted}

Let's take a sample lane match up vs

No Zed has a couple options going into this matchup. He can build for high burst vs anyone and roams. Or he can build or if he wants to itemize defensively vs his lane opponent.

Meanwhile Liss has for her core rush and for defensive itemization.

Zed gets 3 good item options, but Liss gets only 2. Now Riot is going to effectively nerf both of these items for this matchup as the increased active cd and lower AP outweigh the cdr and cost reduction. Riot isn't even adding further itemization options so this turns into a large nerf. This is why people are concerned here. If they want to heavily adjust these items to give more/different benefits at the cost of some of the current strengths, then at least give us extra options to choose from.

If you build ghostblade first vs a good Lissandra, you WILL be outscaled. You will die to her combo way too easily
NOBODY builds mercurial as a first item. The build path is NOT something you can get early and get away with it.
If we're gonna say ghostblade for offense, who don't we say Morello for offense on Lissandra? Or Luden's? Oh, because they're bad choices to build against a Zed (Like ghostblade)?

You are saying that RoA is the ONLY thing Lissandra can get, as well as a Zhonysa.

By that Logic, why don't I say you can ONLY get a Maw vs Lissandra as Zed, or else you get fucked over? It's the same logic.

Even if this whole thing ends up nerfing Zhonyas (which it really isn't, if anything its the same or better) are we ignoring ALL of these other new items and changes? How about that new dash item, that seems good VS assassins. HP and a TON of damage on a 30 seconds CD that gives mobility.

Or we can just keep leaving out the other stuff to attempt to prove our point.

WarlockLawApr 7, 20165 votes

With Ghostblade and RoA, those are the preferred damage rush on those two in a vacuum, meaning if you aren't planning on counter-building your opponent those are the most likely rushes. I didn't bring up Morello or Luden's because then I'd also feel obliged to mention Duskblade and Ravenous Hydra.

Mercurial rush on Zed works in his matchups vs Malz, Annie and Liss. It's actually really strong in those 3 mathups on par with, or even stronger than Maw.

If building HP vs assassins was strong, you'd see a lot more item 3116 and item 3151 rushes. But you don't because raw health isn't very strong vs assassins because they are stacking pen, damage and defense. RoA is only built because it allows you to sustain in the lane if the assassin fails to 100-0 you.

HauntApr 7, 201610 votes

{quoted}

With Ghostblade and RoA, those are the preferred damage rush on those two in a vacuum, meaning if you aren't planning on counter-building your opponent those are the most likely rushes. I didn't bring up Morello or Luden's because then I'd also feel obliged to mention Duskblade and Ravenous Hydra.

Mercurial rush on Zed works in his matchups vs Malz, Annie and Liss. It's actually really strong in those 3 mathups on par with, or even stronger than Maw.

If building HP vs assassins was strong, you'd see a lot more and rushes. But you don't because raw health isn't very strong vs assassins because they are stacking pen, damage and defense. RoA is only built because it allows you to sustain in the lane if the assassin fails to 100-0 you.

I don't think you understand how much experience I have on this subject. Look at my most played champions, I know ALL about these matchups and builds of mid laners, especially those on Zed. Mercurial rush is NOT better than a Maw rush, it's a terrible buy. That is a 3rd item or MAYBE a second item, if you NEED it.

RoA is good because it makes you scale way too hard, gives you 120 AP at max stacks, and gives you a TON of HP, giving you enough to survive assassin burst unless they're greatly ahead of you. You don't see Rylias rush unless it's on someone abusable like Brand, you don't see Liandrys rush because it needs more AP for synergizing. You have just as many options. How about we say how Zed's only summoner spell option is ignite and flash if he ever wants kill pressure on a mage? Meanwhile you get barrier/heal/exhaust/ignite depending who you are. Take exhaust next time you go against Zed as Lissandra.

You all blow this out of proportion. An example is when everyone thought duskblade was going to be broken while I said it wasn't, and I SAID why it wasn't going to be, and go figure, nobody agreed. Look where we are now. The item is bad. You jump to conclusions without thinking about how good players react to these changes and items and counters. This game has more strategy than just complaining and refusing to believe experience.

XonraApr 7, 201617 votes

{quoted}

It's not meant to just increase the power of mages. It's meant to help distinguish them from other mages both strategically and in gameplay, while also attempting to address some game health issues at the same time.

I'm really only speaking as to my perspective on the mages I'm currently working on (Cassiopeia and Malzahar), but if they release substantially stronger than they are currently, I'll be somewhat disappointed in their release state. The champions, and the items they use, are undergoing enough change that they should be a bit harder or a bit less familiar to play in the short term, with the gain of longer term differentiation and mastery. That's not to say I want any of them to release weak, but if Malzahar drops from his current high winrate into something lower than his historical average (at least for the short term while learning curve kicks in), I'd consider that a good sign more than an indication of him being too weak.

It maybe should have given them a bit more power, as right now they are outclassed by marksman pretty hard, and this update looks to make that worse, not better.

Honestly if tanks weren't so popular to the point you could just stack armor, I doubt people would even bother playing mages outside of the support role with a few exceptions.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 201619 votes

It maybe should have given them a bit more power, as right now they are outclassed by marksman pretty hard, and this update looks to make that worse, not better.

Please do elaborate. These are some of the kinds of things I'm pretty interested in making sure we've thought out.

LandorinApr 7, 201640 votes

The biggest issue I see is that a lot of the new items are trading off raw AP for CDR. I don't deny that having more accessible CDR will increase the overall reliability of a lot of AP champions and solve some of the awkward itemization choices they're forced to take right now. But, the problem I foresee is how it will affect champs that rely on raw burst (of which there are many)--items like Maw, Sterak's, and to a lesser extent Mercurial already put a big dent in their ability to actually burst effectively, and lowering raw AP across the board while drastically decreasing the cost of Banshee's Veil makes me apprehensive, especially when none of these new items seem particularly geared towards that class of champions.

I realize though that the changes shown so far might only be a subset of the total changes, but I would love to see some items like Luden's or Deathcap be a little more powerful/accessible to trade off for not having CDR/Mana (and for their ridiculous cost). Overall, though, I'm worried that the changes are going to be skewed in favor of sustained damage mages at the detriment of burst damage. I can't help but notice that all of the mages being reworked are all poke/sustained damage, too.

JediMindFlipperApr 7, 201615 votes

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that these proposed changes all reduce AP. Though i see quite a lot more health stats, i feel that this AP reduction will strike a large blow to most AP casters.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 8, 201618 votes

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that these proposed changes all reduce AP. Though i see quite a lot more health stats, i feel that this AP reduction will strike a large blow to most AP casters.

I talked to Xypherous for a couple minutes about some of the feedback he's gotten so far, and he was talking about adding ~1000g worth of stats/costs/effects back into AP itemization builds to round out late game builds, so I think there's at least some agreement on that front.

THEJJSLAYApr 8, 201617 votes

The games make it to about 25 min on average I've reached full build 3 times this season. Discounting the games where I have more gold than the rest of my team combined.

Please explain to me how late game power will help mages, who almost universally have a weak late game to anything with cc/dive/poke/anykindofdamage, be better.

People have been crying about no ap cdr lately, that doesn't mean get rid of their damage and ability to do damage/ be relevant in the fight.

L0ve Is BlueApr 8, 20165 votes

Then it has to be 1000g worth of AP. Not other stats.

AbyssphereApr 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VVoFcWc0,comment-id=000b00010000000100020001,timestamp=2016-04-08T00:31:32.158+0000)

Then it has to be 1000g worth of AP. Not other stats.

I can't imagine it'd be anything other than AP/MPen. Other stats aren't relevant to mages late.

OneSmoothDudeApr 8, 20168 votes

Mages still want max CDR eventually and enough mana and/or mana regen to be able to seige for awhile without needing to back frequently.

These things are vital but might be taken for granted as itemization is now because mana regen is so prevalent. But now that they are making such heavy changes to the mana/mana regen systems, these new considerations will need to be taken into account.

I mean, look at the Chalice and Athene's changes. They're completely different items now! And it's easy to look at the new Morellonomicon now and say that "Oh yeah okay they replaced the +100% mana regen with 400 mana, no big deal." But for Lux Leblanc Karthus Kassadin Kayle Heimerdinger AurelionSol Azir Ahri Anivia Annie Diana Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Galio Fizz Orianna Malzahar Nidalee TwistedFate Syndra Swain Viktor Veigar Velkoz Xerath Ziggs Varus Lulu Ryze Karma Morgana Zilean Zyra

a lot of champions at level 18 that means you're trading 240* mana regen per minute for a flat 400!

For the current Morello to regen 400 mana right now (assuming you're level 18 with ~20 mana per 5) takes 1.667 minutes, so mathematically, coming off of a back, the new Morello will lose mana efficiency compared to the current one just after three minion waves. After that point we're in the red, mana-wise. Looks like seige-oriented mid laners are a bit fucked late game, doesn't it? Maybe this will be where the 1000g will go, idk.

Point is, maybe it'd need to go to AP/MPen, maybe not. These changes are system-wide so it's hard to predict how things will turn out in a vacuum.

*For everyone after Ziggs, even more than 240 is lost.

Edit: Forgot a word, put in faces.

Neo CyrusApr 9, 20164 votes

The major problem is this new calculation of what you guys deem right for mage efficiency is a fallacy. Efficiency values of AD items are inherently more valuable for obvious reasons such as the fact that THEY APPLY TO AUTO ATTACKS and AD champs have higher ratios, sustain, etc. ADC items are more along the lines of the same efficiency values, BUT THEY MULTIPLY rapidly increasing their values when they go from 1 to 2 to 3 items. Mage items don't. Non ADC AD items are straight up more efficient than AP items.

It's incredibly disturbing that Xypherous is so completely dead set on using this new idea for what efficiency is right despite all the the data showing the contrary. Mages can NOT touch any tank, are outclassed early and mid game by AD counterparts, and fall off like a rock late game if it ever reaches that.

I'd honestly pay to see you guys spend 100 games in ranked playing mages, you would give up all hope on the class.

1000G doesn't come near enough to make them competitive vs any class late game, and doesn't address the fact of how weak they are relatively in both the mid and early game. If they're not comparable to other classes, early, mid or late game anymore, what's the reasoning behind that? The only reason they're even picked anymore is for mixed damage, which is why Corki/Ezreal are so popular mid in pro games.

Tanks? 1000G worth of stats more will still mean with a single Banshee's the tank can ignore mages and go for whatever target.

ADCs? They'll still kill mages late game with 3 near guaranteed crits and the state of the game now, especially with the upcoming mage nerfs, makes it incredibly difficult to ever 100-0 one. Maw makes it actually impossible even after that "nerf" it got last patch, and if the mage is not ahead even if they don't have Maw it's not possible to 100-0 one.

Why am I writing everything over and over again. Can you honestly read what I wrote here and tell me if I'm wrong, tell me if you actually disagree with the main points - http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/uK1XQykM-state-of-the-game-with-meddler-zirene-and-more?comment=0024

Tl;dr - Everyone, including the pros, felt that the preaseason 6 nerfs to mages were not only too extreme, but uncalled for to begin with. Now you're doubling down on them, a lot of us are quitting the game including myself after 5 years.

NefasApr 7, 201612 votes

Mages are supposed to be able to out burst ADCs and as a Mage player it really feels like they are struggling in that right now. ADCs get itemization that allowed to them to survive burst and do more damage - Maw, Sterak's, Scimitar - which are barely being touched at all. There is more accessible MR for Mage targets than ever yet there isn't much in the way of MR Pen.

Sterak's shield should scale heavily with EDIT: bonus health. Maw shouldn't be a massive anti-mage stat-stick that gives AD, Armor Pen, Magic Resist, a incredibly powerful shield, and the mini-stat-stick of the secondary passive. There is literally no drawback to rushing Maw for AD - it fits perfectly as a first item - but Zhonyas is a crap rush for mages since even with these changes seekers/Zhonyas as an early item will remain crappy to rush since it provides nothing in terms of mana sustaining power.

That's all ignoring the sheer amount of burst that ADCs are doing right now which they shouldn't be able to. Burst is not supposed to be ADC territory by Riot's own definitions. ADCs are supposed to be sustained damage dealers.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 8, 201618 votes

Burst is not supposed to be ADC territory by Riot's own definitions. ADCs are supposed to be sustained damage dealers.

Totally agree with this sentiment, and I do think recent item adjustments have shown the balance team does as well. I will say that I don't think mages should unanimously be burst champions though. Absolutely some should be, but others do operate as more sustained damage threats.

HellioningApr 8, 20165 votes

That's not a problem, but most sustained damage mages have trouble with defense. The current itemization doesn't really help them all that much, unless you're Ryze and barely build any actual mage items anyway. Like, Seraph's is okay, but that melts quickly, and Zhonya's, while still useful, is of significantly less benefit to a Cass than it would be to a burst mage. This leaves Rylai's and Abyssal; Rylai's is nice, but it doesn't really help you when someone is already jumping on you; it's more offensive, apart from the health. And Abyssal is just flat out overtuned anyway.

SeargentAnusApr 8, 201610 votes

You are correct. People seem to think Mages all fall into one universal class when in reality it's more like 7 or 8. I just wish we got more items than you guys have made at the moment simply because Mages are the most diverse class in the game, and even with the new items added some of the classes (zone and poke mages being the large ones) feel like they're getting left behind.

Krys StarApr 8, 20164 votes

Is there a reason why AD champions have such a wide, variety of access to armor pen this season, while mages are simply stuck with Haunting Guise/Liandry, which isn't even that great of a buy on most mages other than Malzahar and ocassionally, Zyra and Cassiopeia?

The 99th ProblemApr 8, 20167 votes

Jhin has more burst damage than 95% of the mages...

The Voids CallApr 8, 20165 votes

In general Mages get outclassed by their lack of scaling with primary stats. If you look at AD champions who scale extremely well with, AS, Crit, AD, Lifesteal, CDR (5 total). Compared to AP champions who scale extremely well with, AP, CDR... Yeah that's it... and as it stands AD have better CDR options

Then on top of that AP have their mana much more emphasized than AD champions, despite AD champions being just as ability dependent in many cases.

They might have "healthier" items, but the healthy ones almost always weaker? item 3151 < item 3153 item 3165 < item 3033 item 3191 < item 3155

Mages seem to run into these problems more than AP assassins, if not only because mobility can be substituted for power in many cases.

What mages need are either AP utility scaling (because we all know how much people love those on lulu), or more multiplier stats. Bring Spell vamp back (nerf vlad to compensate w/e), give them items which increase their max CDR, so AD can get 40% let mages get 60%.

XonraApr 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Please do elaborate. These are some of the kinds of things I'm pretty interested in making sure we've thought out.

Im not sure which part specifically you were wanting elaborated but Ill start with the marskman part specifically.

Right now the itemization for marskman is quite possibly the most balanced itemization for any class or role. You have itemization for mr, cc, burst, tankiness, crit, cdr, the list goes on. That alone gives them a huge advantage, and with the marksman update making so many more viable and unique, they easily transitioned into other roles.

Graves for example can clear the jungle faster than most mage junglers, as well as ganking on par, and scaling far better and with a variety of options. In top he can be a bully immediately where no mages can outside of cheesey matchups now and then.

Varus and Corki mid bring the poke and scaling that even most mages dont have access to, and rival in burst with corki at least.

With the changes as they stand, itemization seems to be focused hard on utility more than burst or even sustained damage. Spell vamp is being understandably removed, and the one direct counter a mage has to assassins is being nerfed essentially, to put cdr on what I feel is the wrong item to add cdr to for the tradeoffs.

The marksman update gave a lot of marksman tools in the way of survivability and direct damage. The mage update seems to be removing burst and ap in general, and in some cases mana regen, in favor of utility, in some some cases in awkward ways (hextech belt for example).

Games are shorter, towers fall easier, dragon fights are much less often, and due to this the bursty and cc heavy mages are being used less in favor of marksman who can take towers fast in early tower trading and fast objective trading. Removing damage and any mana regen from mages is only going to give auto attack reliant and resourcless or manaless champions an even greater advantage.

If you have a corki vs an ahri for example, the ahri will be out pushed because this update will cause her to go oom and mage auto attacks simply dont match up. The corki could easily push against her and even roam easily now. There are lots of examples, but right now marksman are class A and some mages can keep up in certain phases. With the changes, mages will be outdamaged further, and the added cdr coupled with the lower mana regen will only serve to cause them to go oom faster, and the lower ap values will hurt not only in fights, but with objectives (directly less turret damage for example due to leas auto attack to turret ap damage compared to the speed of the already currently popular double marksman comps).

Hope I explained that decently, as Im attempting this on my phone. Thanks for giving me the chance at attempting to elaborate, even if somewhat poorly.

DessemApr 8, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Please do elaborate. These are some of the kinds of things I'm pretty interested in making sure we've thought out.

For one, Graves can burst out a Syndra before she can properly set up more than one or two spheres for her combo.

ADC itemisation is superior to mage itemisation. You can think about ADC items: do I want to be an AD caster? Essence Reaver. Do I want poke? Rapidfire. Do I want AoE? Shiv. Do I need to duel? Phantom Dancer. Am I dying quickly? Guardian's Angel or Bloodthirster. Do I need MORE AoE? Runaan's. Just more damage? Infinity Edge. Are they stacking armour and HP? Lord Dominik. Armour, but a lot of sustain? Mortal Reminder.

What do AP mages have to think about? We must get Zhonya, because it's the only AP item that gives us some defence against being bursted down, both by its Active and due to having Armour. We have to buy Rabadon's Deathcap, because there's no other strong multiplier for AP. We need either Morellonomicon, Rod of Ages or Athene's Unholy Grail to provide us with enough Mana (Regen) to get around our greatest weakness:

Every AP Mana champion's weakness is their total and utter reliance on casting spells, while being limited by a resource they can't easily recover.

An ADC like Varus can opt into Essence Reaver to solve Mana issues, because some AAs will definitely get him back the Mana he needs to sustain his spellcasting pattern.

An AP champion like Syndra has no such options, besides increasing her passive mana regen.

The current proposed changes to mage itemisation suggests that AP champions aren't hampered by resources enough and emphasises a weakness, namely the complete and utter reliance mages have on Mana. As if that isn't bad enough, we also get a slap to the face and insult to injury by lowering AP values for some of these items, meaning new itemisation looks to emphasise a weakness without adding strength, and it implies mages as a whole are currently considered unhealthy. In a game where you can be deleted for 60 seconds within 1 second.

Where before, Syndra and Veigar could decide between Morellonomicon and Athene's Unholy Grail depending on whether they wanted to fight long fights or burst someone down, the new itemisation changes are telling us we don't need to think about what items to buy; we buy Morellonomicon, because we don't deserve to have another option in that slot.

These changes hurt Mages, because our agency of selecting an item build is being shoehorned into a specific direction by removing options and worsening items that were used for specific cases. Zhonya's is made worse so that we can be allowed to buy it sooner, but it means we'll be giving up our lategame power... again. Someone like Zed has the fullest agency to build damage with every item he buys, but we're getting nerfed on the AP for defensive items we buy, resulting in a loss of damaging ability without a gain in defensive strength.

I truly, truly want to like the changes, but in the thread there is talk about unhealthy gameplay and how "infinite poke" isn't healthy... but meanwhile, things like Zed do get infinite poke.

iTaLenTZApr 7, 20165 votes

I am a main Malzahar and do you realize where his high win ratio is coming from? Do you realize what his core build is? Because the higher eelo you get the more his winrate drops. Malzahar is more about punishing bad players than making plays vs good players. That is the reason why he is supposevely so good yet never picked in pro games. He is easily countered by QSS for squishies or tons of MR but people at lower eelo all build full damage therefor get punished hard for it. Another reason is the avarage gamelenght. His winrate drops drastically after 23 minutes to go up after 40+ minutes again. Reasoning behind this is what I already said. He punishes bad players so killing someone or win a teamfight <20 minutes will usually result in taking 2 towers+inhib+drake. Once towers are actually towers again and the the avarage gamelenght goes up and midgame actually exists again his winrate will go down.
And about his build. I almost never buy his recommended items. His core identity is that of a tankmelter.

I only think the scaling on his ult is overkill vs squishy champions. Most of the times you only need it to deal 300 damage or for the cc on top of your pool. But the problem is without it you can't get kills at all so you need the 'overkill' aspect unless you improve the reliabilty of his Q and instant ticks on his pool like Morgana's. Then you can easily take power out of his ult and he will be less punishing vs bad players and better vs good players because you don't completely revolve anymore around a stupid out of date ult that is countered by anyone with enough brain to buy QSS.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 20165 votes

He is easily countered by QSS for squishies or tons of MR but people at lower eelo all build full damage therefor get punished hard for it.

I am personally looking into some stuff that seeks to address the Malzahar/QSS issue at the moment, though there's not much to talk about details-wise yet.

ElewdApr 7, 20162 votes

not even a slight hint of whats to come outside of the dev thread??? we got a sneak peak with cassi commonnnnn oh well im glad to hear malz wont get countered AS hard by a single item.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 201623 votes

not even a slight hint of whats to come outside of the dev thread???

The Void.

Christ SuperstarApr 7, 20165 votes

Without final stats it's hard to really gauge if it will be a nerf or not, however, I can already foresee that the dash item has got to go - as dashes suddenly will be everywhere, think ekko, think fizz, think diana and so forth. Doesn't really help mages, it's just another button you HAVE to get if you want to survive, as 1+ of your opponents are most likely gonna have it. But it DOES seem like mages are a bit shafted, but I'm gonna have to wait and see about that. Though, what do I think should offset immobility? Power! Be it in good defenses, super scalings, higher range, CC and what not.

Also, can you bring more information to the public about the gist of your plans for Malzahar now? Something in the lines of pre-presentation of these items (even though a lynch mob seems to be forming over there), knowing it's not the final iteration! Because, what I'm really anxious about, as a Malzahar main, is if you "ruin" him - thinking stuff like:

Q: Less base damage, worse scaling, shorter silence, same CD. Justified by increased Bobberts damage passive! W: Max HP damage decreased by 75% and moved to minion AA proc when on the nullzone. To make Bobberts relevant post lvl 12! E: Less base damage, worse scaling, less mana return, same CD. Justified by increased Bobberts damage passive! R: Now a skillshot! And with less damage. Justified by increased bobberts damage passive! Passive: Minions (Bobberts) now does 0.1 AP dmg on hit, still squishy, super slow (compared to lvl 1 boots+), and no better pathing! Worth!

You know, the stuff of nightmares, which keeps me up at night. :P Please help me sleep! ;)