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Can juggernauts get defense buffs?

dontspinbutwin··29 votes·11,985 views

Yes, I main juggernauts, so I understand if many of you dismiss this as a bias (as it most likely will contain a bit of bias). However, in current meta, high burst divers and ADCs are meta, which puts juggernauts in a weird situation. Juggernauts will do the same damage as most divers/adcs, but will die stupidly fast even when building defense, with true damage in the game, liandries, bork, so on so forth. Yes, kiting has been and always should be a glaring weakness for juggernauts, but if the enemy slips up they should be severely punished. Juggernauts have the damage for this, however, nearly all juggernauts will die even when this window is exploited, as they will get shredded down by a continuous barrage of either true damage via conqueror, or max hp damage from bork or liandries. It really does suck when you play Darius with aftershock, yet still massively lose trades VS riven, despite canceling her third jump/rushing thornmail.

So can juggernauts get some more tankiness to actually survive to dish out damage? Please? Juggernauts are trash the higher you go on elo ladder, so it wouldn't be busted in LCS or such, and it would only help players like me in the middle ground. The only problem might be lower elo, specifically with juggernauts like Darius and Illaoi, but thats fine: it'd help teach players to exploit weaknesses in juggernauts, teach them to kite, teach them to give up CS, and teach them to respect zone (or even rush armor first item if theyre toplaners). Also, buffing defenses in juggernauts might indirectly help sort out toplane, and weed out toxicity such as vayne top or riven top, and make such matchups a niche, instead of a normality.

TLDR: Juggernauts damage good: defense is ignorable. Plz buff def so def is not ignorable. tyty.

54 Comments

Lovelle16 votes

I would rather they buff defensive itemization than juggs directly, that way everyone benefits. They need to increase the values of resistances, and maybe increase the health on all them, because it is far too easy to nullify defensive builds with penetration and %hp damage.

Morellonomicon applying grievous wounds on every spell, even when the target is at 100% health, is another problem. Should probably have its penetration removed as well, as it allows mages to completely invalidate sustain oriented champions that don't typically include lifesteal in their builds (i.e. most of the juggernauts).

dontspinbutwin8 votes

In an ideal world, damage would be combo based, as opposed to everything being oppressively high. A zed should still be able to 100 to 0 a target, but factors like how many shurikens he hit during his ult or how much armor the enemy is building should also be factors. Vayne should be a niche against tanks, instead of a good in all scenarios champ. Unfortunately, I dont see riot nerfing damage to combo champions/niche champions, so I think you're right: we need a defense item update. I hope they make an armor version of adaptive helm for champs like ez or riven

Saianna1 votes

I would rather they nerf all damage & lifesteal across the board and remove all pointless powercreeped true damage from runes/kits that they had added for shits and giggles.

dontspinbutwin1 votes

As amazing as that would be, until the LCS gets disbanded, high damage will only get worse as the game goes on, as high damage makes the game exciting to watch for spectators. So if nerfing damage is out of the picture, tankiness should be buffed so tanks can properly tank, as opposed to awkwardly waddling around to soak up damage for their adc. My thought when playing a tank should be "I gotta cc them down so my backline can escape/fight!" instead of "fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck I hope jinx is doing damage"

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

I would rather they buff defensive itemization than juggs directly, that way everyone benefits. They need to increase the values of resistances, and maybe increase the health on all them, because it is far too easy to nullify defensive builds with penetration and %hp damage.

Morellonomicon applying grievous wounds on every spell, even when the target is at 100% health, is another problem. Should probably have its penetration removed as well, as it allows mages to completely invalidate sustain oriented champions that don't typically include lifesteal in their builds (i.e. most of the juggernauts).

Voidstaff percentage needs to go down along with this 40% makes game balance non fluid

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

Voidstaff percentage needs to go down along with this 40% makes game balance non fluid

Yeah Voidstaff definitely needs some kind of change as well.

item 3165 item 3135 I'm seeing mages rush these two items way too often, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it except kill them before they kill you. Hopefully your champ isn't melee and/or immobile. I don't understand why Riot seems to think this is okay.

Poske2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Voidstaff definitely needs some kind of change as well.

item 3165 item 3135 I'm seeing mages rush these two items way too often, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it except kill them before they kill you. Hopefully your champ isn't melee and/or immobile. I don't understand why Riot seems to think this is okay.

item 3165 is subpar. Oblivion orb used to be like 4-5% to strong for a game then it got nerfed now its balanced The only good Mage item left is Voidstaff

Mage itemization is sadly trash

SweedishGunner1 votes

The reason mages are rushing these is because they don't do damage without them LUL. You have bruisers one shotting you and if you can't burst them back you're useless.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

The reason mages are rushing these is because they don't do damage without them LUL. You have bruisers one shotting you and if you can't burst them back you're useless.

When you say bruisers, you're just referring to divers right? Because the only juggernaut that's actually doing well right now is Olaf, who has a diving playstyle.

I'm seeing mages do good damage all game, but especially early on.

SweedishGunner1 votes

Honestly I'm so out of touch with the nomenclature of League. I mean shit like Irelia, Jax, Riven, Vi etc. They can one shot you any day of the week if they aren't like 0/5 but you can't one shot them back.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

{quoted}

I would rather they buff defensive itemization than juggs directly, that way everyone benefits. They need to increase the values of resistances, and maybe increase the health on all them, because it is far too easy to nullify defensive builds with penetration and %hp damage.

Morellonomicon applying grievous wounds on every spell, even when the target is at 100% health, is another problem. Should probably have its penetration removed as well, as it allows mages to completely invalidate sustain oriented champions that don't typically include lifesteal in their builds (i.e. most of the juggernauts).

Everyone benefitting is the problem. Divers and skirmishers like jax, Camille and irelia shouldn't be as durable as juggernauts, yet they leech off their itemization anyway

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VUk6hBxd,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2019-04-16T17:58:30.173+0000)

Everyone benefitting is the problem. Divers and skirmishers like jax, Camille and irelia shouldn't be as durable as juggernauts, yet they leech off their itemization anyway

I'm talking about pure defensive itemization, like Frozen Heart, Randuin's Omen, etc. Not even juggernauts build those items anymore.

Of course divers will get good use out of items like Sterak's and Deadman's Plate. Those items provide both damage and defense.

kingDeDeDarius9 votes

Uggh. Went against vayne top today as darius. It was a toxic nightmare that should not be allowed

dontspinbutwin3 votes

Tip for you Fellow Juggernaut main: Pot and 3 reju beads is really helpful against poke lanes/ lanes that run corrupting potion. It helps you be passive, and regen all health the enemy pokes down from you. Furthermore, phaserush and fleet footwork are both really solid runes in this scenario.

JhinuinelyDunk3 votes

As a darius main vayne should be banned every game

Saevum3 votes

{quoted}

Uggh. Went against vayne top today as darius. It was a toxic nightmare that should not be allowed

Oh, so you finally met her in person there? how does it feel a solo lane Vayne scaling faster and harder?

kingDeDeDarius1 votes

It wasn't my first time either xD But yeah, it's pretty overwhelming and makes me want to ff after taking her free harass for more than a minute in lane. You know, since you can't even Q farm a minion without her taking a third of your hp with no way to stop her.

Hotarµ6 votes

Every single Juggernaut in the game is in a healthy state ATM with the exception of Mordekaiser, who is currently getting reworked.

Garen, Darius, Illaoi, and Volibear all sport winrates going from 48-50% across all ELOs which is good considering their playrates.

kingDeDeDarius9 votes

Nah. They don't all even have 48% winrate, and compared to champs who are actually strong, they are pretty weak. Champs like riven and vayne, who are needlessly buffed, have very limited types of counterplay, and can make up for many mistakes through get out of jail free cards and have high play rates than any juggernaut currently. Those are the true problems. Juggernauts are actually pretty weak right now overall

dontspinbutwin3 votes

Yes, their winrates have improved from 45% to 47%, huzzah. However, winrates don't dictate how positive a role is, and I think you might agree with me on this. It appears that you are a botlane main, who specializes in pyke support/mid. People who played in these lanes heavily complained about irelia and akali, despite both champions having actual moderate winrates. In fact, I believe irelia was below 50% win rate, with akali nearing the 50% winrate. However, as you mentioned, their playrates were high, so it was balanced right? No, we all know it wasn't balanced, as even though statistics said there need be no change, it was frustrating to fight either champ...so riot nerfed them, because their mechanics were toxic to the game.

If those champs can get nerfed to help ease the toxicity the game had, then by all means defense should be drastically buffed. Everyone on boards are frustrated by the oppression of riven and vayne. So they should recieve nerfs in a utopian world, but high damage= high watchrates, so sadly I doubt nerfs will occur. So at the very least, why not buff defense, so certain picks like riven and vayne top become a niche, as opposed to meta?

heroikc6 votes

Because juggernauts aren't supposed to be tankier than tanks?

dontspinbutwin5 votes

Tanks and juggernauts both need to get defense buffs, but if a tank gets a defense buff, then it might further encourage certain metas like hecrim top or vayne top, as solid tanks have no actual way to punish them. If Juggernauts get buffed, theres actual damage to punish certain windows in which cheesy toxic toplaners slip up, which might make those picks slowly go away, similar to how buffing juggernauts removed certain champs like trundle and shyv from toplane.

Daelmonos2 votes

I think both trundle and shyv qualify as juggernauts

dontspinbutwin1 votes

Juggernauts are champions with no mobility, little CC, and hard damage/sustain/burst. Champs like shyv and trundle are auto attack reliant (assuming both are played in their fighter roles), and despite their damage and tankiness, their constant barrage of auto attacks put them more in the role of fighter/bruiser, as opposed to juggernauts.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Because juggernauts aren't supposed to be tankier than tanks?

the tankiest juggernaut in the game is probably garen or mundo, and neither is tankier than tanks. at least not compared to someone like midgame Ornn with item 3373 item 3379 and aftershock or literally 1000 armor malphite.

its not what op was asking for.

plus, i think juggernauts should generally be on the same level of tankiness as tanks, with the rest of their power budget in damage, where tanks have it in team utility.

jg díff victim6 votes

[deleted]

dontspinbutwin5 votes

I consider Spirit visage and adaptive helm the "big 2" of MR items, which is really strange, as they give the same MR as wits end or zzrot. I wish that these items would have negatron cloak in their buildpath, because negatron is such a good item, but the "complete" versions of negatron are completely garbage for some champs (ex: illaoi).

TomiMan71 votes

Brand and zyra is easily shut down by adaptive helm so i dont get your problem. Literally the items passive reduces brands dmg by 20% then by another big chunk thx to the 55mr.

jg díff victim2 votes

[deleted]

TomiMan71 votes

take 20% less damage from things such as brand passive, zyra plants, and liandyres torment

Aaaand thats where like 60% of their dmg comes from if not more, especially in the case of brand where you reduce the explosion dmg as well.

Oh you have drawbacks in your build? Who would have thought that by going with item A would have benefits over the other but also drawbacks. You know you cant have it all. You cant have extra healing, big mr, big hp, and extra 20%dmg reduction in one item. You know why? Cos that would be broken af.

Sewer Side2 votes

Juggernaunts don’t need buffs lmao

dontspinbutwin4 votes

Correct. The change would be damage being completely nerfed accross the board, but as long as the LCS remains a variable, this won't ever occur, as high burst makes for exciting gameplay. Unfortunately, with high burst being the constant, that leaves for champions who can abuse high damage without retaliation, like riven or vayne, to constantly be oppressive, and if something causes frustration across all levels of elo, then even if that win rate is balanced, that is a dire issue in need of addressing. Until this damage gets issued, champions like juggernauts are extremely susceptible to being bursted down before their damage comes out, as kiting is a key factor to countering juggernauts. So until damage is nerfed, defense needs to be buffed for juggernauts and tanks, as both roles are near useless right now. A tank should be a threat of hard cc, and a juggernaut should be a threat of harsh burst/sustainability, yet both roles are currently being played as meatshields. When a role loses its primary core, then that is something in dire need of double checking.

U R Good At Game1 votes

To be honest, I would like to see juggernaut kit revamps before they are buffed. Imo their simple 1-2-3 kits make them very frustrating to play against when they are hugely meta. 1-2-3 kit meaning a kit that auto-completes once you land one of it's abilities. Example:

Darius hit E? Welp that means he hit W which more than likely means he hit Q unless you have some crazy dash to outrun his phase while your slowed to pieces. Then all because he landed a single ability half your hp is gone :/ Until the auto-confirm mechanic in jug kits has a bit more counterplay I wouldn't want to see them buffed.

dontspinbutwin1 votes

Correct, many juggernauts have insane burst potential. Thats why its extremely vital and important to be cautious that the combos don't begin in the first place. If Juggernauts had dashes, they would be undeniably broken....but they have no mobility, so they're trash. To those who might see the dari e-AA-w-Q-AA combo, they might think "wow, he did that much damage in 2 seconds, hes broken!", and I don't blame them for thinking that. However, realise that the burst they gave to you? Thats all they have.

Imagine if caitlyn autoed you once a teamfight, and you took 4k damage, but cait couldn't auto for the rest of that teamfight.....and that caitlynn became melee....and she had no net. See where I'm going with this? It sounds broken on paper, but if you take away that interval of burst upfront, juggernauts just become meatshields, because juggernauts really can't do much about anyone who kites them.

TLDR: Juggernauts do high damage in a short period, but it's all they have, and this short period can be easily avoided if distanced from, so therefore it's balanced.

U R Good At Game1 votes

Having a weakness doesn't make you fun to play against. Akali has a weakness, Irelia has one too. Still not dealing with their shenanigans in lane lol. Either way, juggernauts have fine win rates right now, buffs not needed.

The only juggernaut below 50% is darius and he is at 49%. Why we would buff a class that is doing fine and is also not fun to play against. that wouldn't make much sense.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/top/by-winrate

dontspinbutwin1 votes

.....like most people have stated on the boards already in the past, winrate doesn't mean balance. Both riven and vayne, two of the most problematic champions, sit at a 51% winrate. Does that mean that riven or vayne are balanced? By all means no, it just means for every good riven who can properly utilize/exploit her power right now, there is a riven who is bandwagoning, and trying to pick her up because everyone else is doing it.

Furthermore, on another scale, ADC heimerdinger is currently the best performing ADC in the game. The takeaway? There were only 698 ADC heimer games played, so it would be a niche that a small playerbase can properly utilize. This winrate only becomes a problem when everyone starts doing it to exploit a certain tool.

....to top it off, Morde, known to be a juggernaut, is at a 48% WR. That isn't that bad, as opposed to the 42% WR tahm kench....yet morde is getting a rework, because his kit doesn't really fit in any role. Why would he need a rework though? By your logic, he doesn't need one: as his winrate is completely fine.

Winrate means jack in terms of actually fighting these champs. Do you think the ADC has fun getting 1 shot by the enemy rengar? No. But does that mean rengar has a 100% winrate? No: because once he goes in, he can't get out, making him a suicide bomber. But at least rengar get's something from his death: the assassination of a crucial member of a teamfight. Juggernauts don't get to do anything currently, except die in 4 seconds, despite building 250 armor and 150 MR. Juggernauts used to be these tanky fighters, who could clutch-carry a fight while tangoing around 1/4th HP, but their role slowly lost their niche with the spike of damage...even though their easily exploitable weakness remained the same.

As to the irelia and akali weaknesses.... Yes, they had weaknesses. But they were extremely forgiving, which caused frustration. Why else do you think both champs got nerfed, despite having mediocre winrates? Because noone liked fighting them. Sure you could be cautious and not be near minions when fighting irelia..... in exchange of losing 2 levels for not getting exp. Sure you could farm under turret vs akali....except she could poke you down without repercussion, while sustaining herself.

TLDR: Winrate means nothing when talking about toxicity. It's why champs who had decent winrates still got nerfed: as their kits were not fun to fight. Similarly, Juggernauts struggle to fight/do anything, and the juggernaut win condition is hoping the backline is fed, which is nothing like their niche when they were first introduced. Therefore, they need buffs to regain their identity.

U R Good At Game1 votes

yeah ima stick with the tldr on that:

TLDR: Winrate means nothing when talking about toxicity. It's why champs who had decent winrates still got nerfed: as their kits were not fun to fight. Similarly, Juggernauts struggle to fight/do anything, and the juggernaut win condition is hoping the backline is fed, which is nothing like their niche when they were first introduced. Therefore, they need buffs to regain their identity.

Win rate isn't their only performing statistic, I didn't think it needed to be said since anyone with internet can look it up. Their winrate compared to pick rate, learning curve statistics and overall performance matrix are on par if not slightly better than every other top class. Any statistic that is measurable and public puts juggernauts doing fine in the meta. Your argument is an argument of how it feels not how it is. It feels bad to play a juggernaut.

That's again, like I said, why you rework champions. You do not buff champions who by every measurable statistic are doing fine but still feel bad. Especially against a class that also feels bad to play against. Sure they might give juggernaut defensive buffs...and take away an equal amount of offensive pressure but either way they aren't getting massive buffs w/o being reworked or losing something on another end when by every statistic they are average or above average compared to other top lane classes.

Pandemic Punch2 votes

Wait what? How about tanks first? Tanks have the least survivability in the top lane right now out of every class. Irelia, Darius, Jax, and even Riven will survive a lot longer than a tank mid and late game.

dontspinbutwin2 votes

When I say juggernauts need a defense buff, I refer to defense for all tanky toplaners. Tanks need buffs as juggernauts do. The main reason I stated juggernauts needed buffs is because

  1. I have a bias against juggernauts, as I main them
  2. Even if tanks get a buff, their playstyle in these cheese lanes are relatively the same, as they have no proper way to cheese out current meta toplaners (like riven or vayne). Juggernauts actually have damage, so if their defense if buffed, then there is a bigger window to punish those who are extra cheesy, which might weed out cheese champs that are considered meta, back to being niche picks..
Moody P4 votes

Darius will absolutely not outlast a tank in late game lmao

JhinuinelyDunk1 votes

Giga r%%%%%ed xddd

TomiMan71 votes

or max hp damage from bork or liandries.

Bork does CURRENT hp dmg not max hp dmg, and against liandries you can(SHOULD) buy adaptive helm reducing the tick dmg by 20% just from its passive, and not even counting the mr.

dontspinbutwin1 votes

Buying mr is kind of pathetic right now. Usually theres 1 strong AP carry on their team (2 if they have a cheese support or jungler), which means buying a bunch of mr is a waste, as

  1. You still get hard chunked, as the mr items in the game suck right now (each give about 55mr)
  2. The enemy still has ADCs and toplaners, and in this meta, rushing armor is more efficient Also, I can't build armor against true damage, and with conqueror and vayne existing in this meta, survivability becomes so hard, with a major factor being not knowing what to build against their comp.
TomiMan71 votes

So by your words it seems it simply, does not worth to build tanky. Well than there is a simple solution to your problem then. Go full dmg 🙄

dontspinbutwin1 votes

...thats the meta right now. Full damage meta. The champions who can output damage better than others, and receive benefits from doing this are meta. Like riven, vayne, irelia, any cheese toplaner, j4, etc. You build damage in hopes to get an early lead, and snowball until you end. Juggernauts dont benefit much by going full damage, as they pop extremely fast if doing so. Same case for tanks. thats why they're in such horrendous spots right now, and its also why backline/burst divers excel currently.

TomiMan71 votes

Cool. So what is the problem here exactly? The atrocious meta or some champions that dont fit the meta? (like every other meta there's some champions that wont really be playable)

manolis2011 votes

The problem is you ask for Juggernaut defense buffs but Riot buffs they re damage by alot instead of what you say :/

dontspinbutwin1 votes

I want damage to be gutted in all forms, so skill and build become important again. But as long as the LCS is a factor, this won't happen...so at the very least, give tanks and juggernauts a way to survive some poke when these classes build defense.

manolis2011 votes

{quoted}

I want damage to be gutted in all forms, so skill and build become important again. But as long as the LCS is a factor, this won't happen...so at the very least, give tanks and juggernauts a way to survive some poke when these classes build defense.

Yup.

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