People everywhere complaining about Pyke's assassin kit being unfit for Support

BeatzBoyFTW·May 15, 2018·118 votes·22,544 views

Remember, all of you guys did the following:

Building tank items on an Assassin.

Building Support's gold generation items on solo laners/junglers.

Bringing to a support role because "oH wOrLdS dId So ItS mEtA hUrR dUrR".

But when Riot wanted to do something meaningful such as balancing a unique kit around the support role without it being abused like the above, suddenly everyone has a problem. Especially when he isn't released yet.

Double standards.

151 Comments

Teridax68May 15, 201824 votes

My personal take on this is that, while I think there is plenty of space for assassin-support hybrids, my issue with Pyke in particular is that he doesn't actually seem to have any real support elements, besides a forced anti-KS gold mechanic on his ult. He has nothing that has him interact directly with his own team, and at the end of the day it seems like he'd be perfectly at home in a solo lane if it weren't for his forced stat conversions. There's ample room for assassin-y supportive effects, like marking a target for death or sharing one's own buffs with an ally, but none of that seems to be implemented on this new champion. Even in his official gameplay videos, he was mostly going off on his own. This in itself is fine, but calling it a support playstyle, when it features no real team interaction, is simply false advertizing.

VoraciousXMay 15, 201819 votes

{quoted}

My personal take on this is that, while I think there is plenty of space for assassin-support hybrids, my issue with Pyke in particular is that he doesn't actually seem to have any real support elements, besides a forced anti-KS gold mechanic on his ult. He has nothing that has him interact directly with his own team, and at the end of the day it seems like he'd be perfectly at home in a solo lane if it weren't for his forced stat conversions. There's ample room for assassin-y supportive effects, like marking a target for death or sharing one's own buffs with an ally, but none of that seems to be implemented on this new champion. Even in his official gameplay videos, he was mostly going off on his own. This in itself is fine, but calling it a support playstyle, when it features no real team interaction, is simply false advertizing.

Did you forget the displacements, slows, and stuns in his kit? If we're going by what you're saying about supports, Blitzcrank has no support elements either. Nor does Leona.

Teridax68May 15, 201816 votes

CC is not what makes a champion a support, otherwise plenty of existing fighters, assassins and even marksmen would also be supports by default. Ultimately, Pyke's kit is fairly self-sufficient, so short of him having horrendously skewed numbers, he doesn't really innately need others to do his thing. By contrast, direct ally interaction is what generally indicates supportive qualities, and that is one of the few things Pyke actually lacks.

VoraciousXMay 15, 20186 votes

{quoted}

CC is not what makes a champion a support, otherwise plenty of existing fighters, assassins and even marksmen would also be supports by default. Ultimately, Pyke's kit is fairly self-sufficient, so short of him having horrendously skewed numbers, he doesn't really innately need others to do his thing. By contrast, direct ally interaction is what generally indicates supportive qualities, and that is one of the few things Pyke actually lacks.

Yeah, CC doesn't make a champion a support, unless it's long ranged and designed to help your team get to them, or bring them to your team. Pike's Q does just this. The only thing outside of Leona's kit that Pike has that Leona doesn't is that he actually can kill his targets. Btw I've played Evelynn support before, and once you get W things actually can get kind of interesting. You can force people to back off from CS, etc. Once you get ulti they never know where you are, which makes it even more interesting. Yes, I could kill the ADC on my own with Evelynn most likely, assuming I had an advantage, doesn't mean I'm not being supportive with my charm luring them into me AND the ADC. Leona's only supportive features are her CC. She just can't do anything by herself unless she's building pure damage. It's the same with Blitzcrank, except he has higher damage despite building tanky.

The only thing this feels like to me is "He's not getting the ADC ahead, so he's not a support". Which leads into exactly what Riot said they were wanting to do, make it so ADCs weren't the only ones allowed in bot lane. I bet a Pyke/Mordekaiser lane would be amazing.

Jon 678910May 15, 20183 votes

Leona's only supportive features are her CC. She just can't do anything by herself unless she's building pure damage. It's the same with Blitzcrank, except he has higher damage despite building tanky.

The big reason why nobody would take leona into a solo lane is because she'd play like she didn't have a passive. Blitzcrank lacks any defensive scaling, and is basically just there to CC.

There's a reason why supports like Kench can go top. He has grey health to sustain him in between trades, he has high single target damage, and a portion of his health is converted to extra damage.

Teridax68May 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, CC doesn't make a champion a support, unless it's long ranged and designed to help your team get to them, or bring them to your team. Pike's Q does just this.

Once again, plenty of fighters, assassins and marksmen have ranged CC, yet are not generally considered supports. Champions like Jarvan, Camille and Rammus even have abilities specifically designed to help your team get to a target, yet are still not typically picked in the support position.

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The only thing outside of Leona's kit that Pike has that Leona doesn't is that he actually can kill his targets.

Except Leona has a passive specifically designed to synergize with allies. Leona marks targets with bonus damage only allies can trigger, so there is ally interaction baked directly into her kit. Which part of Pyke's kit allows his allies to interact with him?

{quoted}

Btw I've played Evelynn support before, and once you get W things actually can get kind of interesting. You can force people to back off from CS, etc. Once you get ulti they never know where you are, which makes it even more interesting. Yes, I could kill the ADC on my own with Evelynn most likely, assuming I had an advantage, doesn't mean I'm not being supportive with my charm luring them into me AND the ADC.

Your personal experience with Evelynn support does not make her a support, and your one argument for her being so, her CC, is one that can be applied far better to many more non-supports. How exactly again does this justify Pyke being described as a support?

{quoted}

Leona's only supportive features are her CC. She just can't do anything by herself unless she's building pure damage. It's the same with Blitzcrank, except he has higher damage despite building tanky.

... once more, she has an innate that is the core reason behind her supportive qualities. It is the reason why she isn't good in solo lanes or the jungle, as well, because she simply lacks a major contribution in her kit when she goes alone. By contrast, there is nothing to Pyke's kit that is implicitly unfriendly to solo laning, besides likely his forced stat conversions.

{quoted}

The only thing this feels like to me is "He's not getting the ADC ahead, so he's not a support".

Please point to the exact part of my post that suggests anything remotely like this. I did not at any point mention the marksman in particular; or getting them ahead (in fact, I dislike Pyke's gold-sharing on ult precisely because it's a forced manner of having the ADC get kill leads off of assists); rather, I very clearly said that Pyke lacks any mechanics that let him interact with his allies, or vice versa. It is this particular absence of actual supportive abilities that I think does not make him a support.

VoraciousXMay 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Once again, plenty of fighters, assassins and marksmen have ranged CC, yet are not generally considered supports. Champions like Jarvan, Camille and Rammus even have abilities specifically designed to help your team get to a target, yet are still not typically picked in the support position.

Except Leona has a passive specifically designed to synergize with allies. Leona marks targets with bonus damage only allies can trigger, so there is ally interaction baked directly into her kit. Which part of Pyke's kit allows his allies to interact with him?

Your personal experience with Evelynn support does not make her a support, and your one argument for her being so, her CC, is one that can be applied far better to many more non-supports. How exactly again does this justify Pyke being described as a support?

... once more, she has an innate that is the core reason behind her supportive qualities. It is the reason why she isn't good in solo lanes or the jungle, as well, because she simply lacks a major contribution in her kit when she goes alone. By contrast, there is nothing to Pyke's kit that is implicitly unfriendly to solo laning, besides likely his forced stat conversions.

Please point to the exact part of my post that suggests anything remotely like this. I did not at any point mention the marksman in particular; or getting them ahead (in fact, I dislike Pyke's gold-sharing on ult precisely because it's a forced manner of having the ADC get kill leads off of assists); rather, I very clearly said that Pyke lacks any mechanics that let him interact with his allies, or vice versa. It is this particular absence of actual supportive abilities that I think does not make him a support.

Leona's passive to me has always been a very minor part of her kit. The damage isn't huge and Leona isn't picked as a support because of her passive. It's because of her lockdown and defenses. Solo lane Leona is possible but there are tanks with more damage than Leona and if you build her full damage there are probably better choices for that as well.

Pyle shares gold from kills,pulls people back into his team and stuns them. How is that not supportive?

Teridax68May 15, 20182 votes

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Leona's passive to me has always been a very minor part of her kit.

Emphasis on "to me" here, because your perception is certainly not universal, or even correlated with in-game stats.

{quoted}

The damage isn't huge and Leona isn't picked as a support because of her passive. It's because of her lockdown and defenses.

This is objectively not true, Leona is frequently picked because of the added kill threat she adds in lane, and her level 2 is notoriously fearsome. She definitely has lockdown, but her ability to add a significant amount of damage to an ally's combo is a major asset.

{quoted}

Solo lane Leona is possible but there are tanks with more damage than Leona and if you build her full damage there are probably better choices for that as well.

Solo lane Leona is possible, but not viable, and so because there are entire portions of her kit that are entirely lacking, namely her passive. Sure, there's the issue of her not scaling super well, but at her core, solo lane Leona isn't great because she has no passive, plain and simple. The same goes for her jungling, and Riot themselves said they specifically didn't want to enable Leona to proc her own passive against jungle monsters because they deliberately wanted her to be unviable in the jungle.

{quoted}

Pyle shares gold from kills,pulls people back into his team and stuns them. How is that not supportive?

I'm sorry, which part of any of this demonstrates any sort of supportive interaction? Swain pulls back into his team, but isn't a support, and certainly not every champion with a stun is a support. Sharing gold from kills many be a bonus that affects allies, but it does not provide ally interaction, merely a safeguard against KSing. Once again, there is nothing to Pyke that has him interact especially with allies, or that has allies interact in a special manner with him. He is as much of a support as Mordekaiser is an ADC with his equally tacked-on W passive.

VoraciousXMay 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Emphasis on "to me" here, because your perception is certainly not universal, or even correlated with in-game stats.

This is objectively not true, Leona is frequently picked because of the added kill threat she adds in lane, and her level 2 is notoriously fearsome. She definitely has lockdown, but her ability to add a significant amount of damage to an ally's combo is a major asset.

Significant amount being 44 extra damage at level 2, okay, THAT's why she's picked. Not the fact that she has one of the most reliable CCs(her E) in the game, and can chain that with another CC(her Q) while also having an ability that gives her armor and magic resist so she can survive when she actually goes in. Not saying her damage doesn't help but it's highly unlikely that her passive is what gives her kill pressure opposed to the other things in her kit.

Solo lane Leona is possible, but not viable, and so because there are entire portions of her kit that are entirely lacking, namely her passive. Sure, there's the issue of her not scaling super well, but at her core, solo lane Leona isn't great because she has no passive, plain and simple. The same goes for her jungling, and Riot themselves said they specifically didn't want to enable Leona to proc her own passive against jungle monsters because they deliberately wanted her to be unviable in the jungle.

Her passive is the least part of her damage, and most of it will be mitigated by built in magic resist. She could solo lane fine I'm sure. Iirc there was even someone going mid AD Leona a while back.

If Leona considered a support purely because of her passive, then what of Nautilus? What does he do that assists other people?

I'm sorry, which part of any of this demonstrates any sort of supportive interaction? Swain pulls back into his team, but isn't a support, and certainly not every champion with a stun is a support. Sharing gold from kills many be a bonus that affects allies, but it does not provide ally interaction, merely a safeguard against KSing. Once again, there is nothing to Pyke that has him interact especially with allies, or that has allies interact in a special manner with him. He is as much of a support as Mordekaiser is an ADC with his equally tacked-on W passive.

Swain doesn't pull them back to his team, he pulls them back to him. Pyke, as shown, pulls them the same distance no matter how far away they are, meaning if he's right in their face, they go literally back into his team. As for the gold not providing ally interaction, an assassin generally goes in and kills someone regardless of if an ally is present or not. His ultimate's passive gold requires someone to assist him. How is this NOT ally interaction?

Teridax68May 16, 20181 votes

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Significant amount being 44 extra damage at level 2, okay, THAT's why she's picked. Not the fact that she has one of the most reliable CCs(her E) in the game, and can chain that with another CC(her Q) while also having an ability that gives her armor and magic resist so she can survive when she actually goes in. Not saying her damage doesn't help but it's highly unlikely that her passive is what gives her kill pressure opposed to the other things in her kit.

Okay, so first off, why are you placing these two aspects of Leona in opposition to each other? It's not like you have to choose between her CC or her bonus damage, you get both just by picking her. Like I said, her CC is indeed important, but it is also the bonus damage on top of that that makes her so valuable, and absolutely terrifying in lane. 44 bonus damage at level 2 is already a lot, but her level 2 is amazing because having her E + Q gives her a full-on dive combo, and lets that damage get applied twice (and I hope you'll agree 88 extra damage is not bad at all). It's what caused her to be able to kill the enemy marksman in one rotation at levels 2-3, or close to it, when Aftershock was at its strongest.

{quoted}

Her passive is the least part of her damage, and most of it will be mitigated by built in magic resist. She could solo lane fine I'm sure. Iirc there was even someone going mid AD Leona a while back.

I'm not quite sure why we're talking about the ability's balancing, when the simple fact that it exists is what gives Leona supportive interaction. Whether you like it or not, Leona has interaction with her allies baked into her kit, plain and simple. Pyke does not. Also, when exactly was Leona a viable solo laner? Once again, one person doing a wacky off-build does not make said champion and build viable.

{quoted}

If Leona considered a support purely because of her passive, then what of Nautilus? What does he do that assists other people?

... when did I say that I considered Nautilus a support? For sure, he's now being played primarily in the support position, after Cinderhulk's nerfs made tank support builds more viable on him by comparison, but once more, that does not mean he is a member of the support class, precisely because he also lacks ally interaction. It feels like a large part of the problem here comes from you confusing the support class (i.e. champions designed specifically to interact with allies) with the support position (i.e. champions who lane bot as supports). By your own logic, Brand is a support, and Malz switched to support for a few months, even though nobody considers them that way.

{quoted}

Swain doesn't pull them back to his team, he pulls them back to him.

The difference being... ?

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Pyke, as shown, pulls them the same distance no matter how far away they are, meaning if he's right in their face, they go literally back into his team.

You mean like Orianna's ult? Is Orianna a member of the support class now?

{quoted}

As for the gold not providing ally interaction, an assassin generally goes in and kills someone regardless of if an ally is present or not. His ultimate's passive gold requires someone to assist him. How is this NOT ally interaction?

Once again, how is it ally interaction? What part of it offers new gameplay to Pyke's allies? What does it make them do that they would otherwise not want to or be able to do? The only thing it does is let Pyke get the killing blow without it counting as a KS. By contrast, even something as basic as an ally-targeted shield qualifies as an interaction, particularly since it allows the recipient to take risks they wouldn't otherwise survive. Again, by your own logic, you could tack that gold sharing passive onto literally any champion, and they'd become a support. That's not how class design works.

VoraciousXMay 16, 20181 votes

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Okay, so first off, why are you placing these two aspects of Leona in opposition to each other? It's not like you have to choose between her CC or her bonus damage, you get both just by picking her. Like I said, her CC is indeed important, but it is also the bonus damage on top of that that makes her so valuable, and absolutely terrifying in lane. 44 bonus damage at level 2 is already a lot, but her level 2 is amazing because having her E + Q gives her a full-on dive combo, and lets that damage get applied twice (and I hope you'll agree 88 extra damage is not bad at all). It's what caused her to be able to kill the enemy marksman in one rotation at levels 2-3, or close to it, when Aftershock was at its strongest.

I'm not quite sure why we're talking about the ability's balancing, when the simple fact that it exists is what gives Leona supportive interaction. Whether you like it or not, Leona has interaction with her allies baked into her kit, plain and simple. Pyke does not. Also, when exactly was Leona a viable solo laner? Once again, one person doing a wacky off-build does not make said champion and build viable.

... when did I say that I considered Nautilus a support? For sure, he's now being played primarily in the support position, after Cinderhulk's nerfs made tank support builds more viable on him by comparison, but once more, that does not mean he is a member of the support class, precisely because he also lacks ally interaction. It feels like a large part of the problem here comes from you confusing the support class (i.e. champions designed specifically to interact with allies) with the support position (i.e. champions who lane bot as supports). By your own logic, Brand is a support, and Malz switched to support for a few months, even though nobody considers them that way.

The difference being... ?

You mean like Orianna's ult? Is Orianna a member of the support class now?

Once again, how is it ally interaction? What part of it offers new gameplay to Pyke's allies? What does it make them do that they would otherwise not want to or be able to do? The only thing it does is let Pyke get the killing blow without it counting as a KS. By contrast, even something as basic as an ally-targeted shield qualifies as an interaction, particularly since it allows the recipient to take risks they wouldn't otherwise survive. Again, by your own logic, you could tack that gold sharing passive onto literally any champion, and they'd become a support. That's not how class design works.

Nautilus when he was first introduced, was introduced as a support. He became primarily a top laner later, but his class was always as a support. Just because you don't classify him as one, doesn't mean he isn't one. As for asking how his ultimate is ally interaction, how is Leona's passive requiring ally interaction? It quite literally just gives damage to people for doing what they already do. This is quite the same with Pyke's ultimate. Orianna has a shield, so if shields classify supports, she is one(I think she is actually listed as a mage/support anyways).

Teridax68May 17, 20181 votes

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Nautilus when he was first introduced, was introduced as a support. He became primarily a top laner later, but his class was always as a support. Just because you don't classify him as one, doesn't mean he isn't one.

Nautilus was introduced as a jungler, and only expanded to top lane, and now support, later on after balancing changes. Additionally, he is a tank, and has always been thought of as such. His champion spotlight was not difficult to find, and you should have done proper research before coming up with statements that are so completely false. Moreover, even if he had been designed for the support position, that would still not make him a support, as he plays as a pure tank, rather than a support or tank-support hybrid. Once more, being in the support position does not make one a member of the support class, and you would do well to read at least that part of my post, instead of just block-quoting it in your reply.

{quoted}

As for asking how his ultimate is ally interaction, how is Leona's passive requiring ally interaction? It quite literally just gives damage to people for doing what they already do.

It doesn't, as maximizing Leona's passive requires proper timing, and frequently involves decision-making tied specifically to that effect. A Draven, for example, may want to throw out an autoattack, then an E almost immediately, when Leona uses her EQ combo, even if he'd usually keep his E for another time, because simply autoattacking would be too slow to efficiently trigger both bonus damage applications. A Miss Fortune may want to save her Q for a reliable, direct hit to combo with Leona's innate, when she'd otherwise normally try to poke with it in lane. It should not take much practical experience or imagination to figure out how such an effect carries gameplay, and even if it were just a persistent damage boost, it would still have ally interaction in that Leona would be marking specific targets to focus. Arguing otherwise is simply grasping at straws, and demonstrating a complete lack of experience with Leona in the process.

{quoted}

This is quite the same with Pyke's ultimate.

Once more, how? Please explain how Pyke's ultimate offers new gameplay to his allies, particularly since I have already asked you before, and received no response.

{quoted}

Orianna has a shield, so if shields classify supports, she is one(I think she is actually listed as a mage/support anyways).

Okay, so Orianna is a support specifically because of her shield now? Did you not try to argue on the basis of fixed-length displacements just before? You literally just contradicted your own argument.

VoraciousXMay 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nautilus was introduced as a jungler, and only expanded to top lane, and now support, later on after balancing changes. Additionally, he is a tank, and has always been thought of as such. His champion spotlight was not difficult to find, and you should have done proper research before coming up with statements that are so completely false. Moreover, even if he had been designed for the support position, that would still not make him a support, as he plays as a pure tank, rather than a support or tank-support hybrid. Once more, being in the support position does not make one a member of the support class, and you would do well to read at least that part of my post, instead of just block-quoting it in your reply.

It doesn't, as maximizing Leona's passive requires proper timing, and frequently involves decision-making tied specifically to that effect. A Draven, for example, may want to throw out an autoattack, then an E almost immediately, when Leona uses her EQ combo, even if he'd usually keep his E for another time, because simply autoattacking would be too slow to efficiently trigger both bonus damage applications. A Miss Fortune may want to save her Q for a reliable, direct hit to combo with Leona's innate, when she'd otherwise normally try to poke with it in lane. It should not take much practical experience or imagination to figure out how such an effect carries gameplay, and even if it were just a persistent damage boost, it would still have ally interaction in that Leona would be marking specific targets to focus. Arguing otherwise is simply grasping at straws, and demonstrating a complete lack of experience with Leona in the process.

Once more, how? Please explain how Pyke's ultimate offers new gameplay to his allies, particularly since I have already asked you before, and received no response.

Okay, so Orianna is a support specifically because of her shield now? Did you not try to argue on the basis of fixed-length displacements just before? You literally just contradicted your own argument.

You said that something as basic as a shield is ally interaction. If ally interaction is what defines a support, then this would make Orianna a support. You're the one that called her a support in this, not me. I was just using it as an example. Though honestly Orianna is quite supportive, not to ADCs specifically, more to all in champions like Riven who she can amplify their all ins with her shield(not really her shield, but her ball being on them, which is only done by shielding them) and ultimate.

As for Leona's passive/Pyke's ultimate being the same, as I said, they give you "ally interaction" by giving you rewards for things you already do. I mean, the explanation was RIGHT THERE. As for Leona's passive NOT doing that, how so? I mean, an ADC isn't going to be thinking about that, they're gonna be sitting there auto attacking constantly, not min-maxing Leona's passive. No ADC I've ever met has tried to focus on that, they just right click and use their abilities as they find them necessary for themselves, not for Leona. That 44 damage at level 2 isn't gonna make a difference when they can do that much with one of their auto attacks or abilities. They'll likely already have gotten the kill by the time Leona's engage ended just from right clicking while they're locked down, or at the very least a flash/heal allowing Leona to try again. They'd probably actually be wasting damage TRYING to min/max Leona's passive, as they'd have to wait for her to engage before even attacking, then make sure their auto attack landed the moment her E hit, then use an ability inbetween, when they probably could have gotten more damage off not doing that. But that's not really important in this discussion.

As for the argument of her passive at the very least giving allies specific targets, If a Leona locked someone down with her abilities, they'd ALREADY be focusing them. Her lockdown IS target selection on it's own without her passive.

Role wise, sure, Pyke is an assassin, but he's still a support. People may take him mid lane, or top lane, but they're gonna be wasting his ultimate with no allies around to benefit from the gold he gives to his team for getting those kills. He's allowed to build a support item because health gives him damage, I don't see him as not supportive, considering his cooldowns are pretty big and all of his abilities are with the intent of locking down the enemy(his Q is the only thing that really deals a lot of damage outside of his ult, so he's kind of like Shaco in that he relies on on-hit damage to succeed in killing people).

La Belle SauvageMay 15, 20182 votes

I know Ashe is primarily played as an ADC, but isn't she listed as a support?

Teridax68May 15, 20183 votes

She likely was many years ago, back when Riot thought a champion with a heavy focus on ranged CC would be played as a support, but in practice Ashe has only rarely been played as a support, in part because AD scalings innately do not lend themselves well to supporting. I'd say she arguably has more supportive elements than Pyke, since unlike him she actually provides utility her allies can play off of (i.e. her vision on E), but even then, her playstyle isn't exactly supportive when she typically draws her team's focus to herself.

La Belle SauvageMay 15, 20181 votes

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I tried her as an AP support in Norms for about 5 games, with mixed results. And then abandoned it in favor of utility supports. Her E was nice though.

FakeGravityMay 15, 20182 votes

i remember playing back when that summon that let you have vision of an area was still around, for when your team suck at warding so you just scout for them

jocomotionMay 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

CC is not what makes a champion a support, otherwise plenty of existing fighters, assassins and even marksmen would also be supports by default. Ultimately, Pyke's kit is fairly self-sufficient, so short of him having horrendously skewed numbers, he doesn't really innately need others to do his thing. By contrast, direct ally interaction is what generally indicates supportive qualities, and that is one of the few things Pyke actually lacks.

Other supports actually fit into this category too though. Nautilus is a tank support with no ally effecting abilities, hell years ago it was considered troll.

and Zyra are mage supports in the same vein but they’re still played support.

Even MissFortune is played support every so often. So to me an assassin support makes sense

Autrah FangMay 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Did you forget the displacements, slows, and stuns in his kit? If we're going by what you're saying about supports, Blitzcrank has no support elements either. Nor does Leona.

to be fair, i'm pretty sure both Leona and Blitzcrank were originally intended for top lane, but people found they performed better as supports XD

AwhegarkMay 15, 20187 votes

Assassins are just popular champions, and the support role is the least popular role. Do you see the conflict?

Umbral RegentMay 15, 201826 votes

You'd think the popularity of Assassins would mean Pyke should be appealing to everybody, since people love Assassins, so making a Support Assassin should give them a reason to enjoy playing the least popular role.

AwhegarkMay 15, 20183 votes

But assassin mains dont like being the adc's bitch. They will just take Pyke to the midlane/junlge.top until Riot makes some change that forces him to go support only.

Umbral RegentMay 15, 201824 votes

I'm not sure if you looked over Pyke's kit yet, but he seems like he's going to be anything but the "ADC's bitch" trope people fear so much. He's a Catcher (like Thresh), but he has abilities that give him the opportunity - and the impetus - to kill.

Besides, he gets no benefit from Bonus Health, since Gift of the Drowned Ones converts Bonus Health from items into Attack Damage, and his base damage and scalings are low to compensate for him being an Assassin with higher than average CC.

It seems already that they've got him designed to be a Support Champion, and not a solo carry, though it may be somewhat possible to play him in other roles.

AzadetheMay 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VKlOAo2Y,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-15T01:37:56.731+0000)

I'm not sure if you looked over Pyke's kit yet, but he seems like he's going to be anything but the "ADC's bitch" trope people fear so much. He's a Catcher (like Thresh), but he has abilities that give him the opportunity - and the impetus - to kill.

Besides, he gets no benefit from Bonus Health, since Gift of the Drowned Ones converts Bonus Health from items into Attack Damage, and his base damage and scalings are low to compensate for him being an Assassin with higher than average CC.

It seems already that they've got him designed to be a Support Champion, and not a solo carry, though it may be somewhat possible to play him in other roles.

His Catch mechanism is extremely conditional and going to be suicidal in the Support role. He's got to charge his Dagger to pull with it, and the range expands based on the time charged.

On other words, since it needs a line of sight, other "catchers" and line of sight mages will literally obliterate Pike if he tries to be a catcher in lane.

His primary is going to be to use Phantom Undertow to get closer to the enemy in a minion-less line, and THEN charge Bone Skewer. Doing so will get him close enough to charge a pull (but is going to take damage during it) and it will flip the target behind him.

Then he will use Ghostwater Dive to get away.

If the Passive scales at all, he will be able to solo lane. There's significant amounts of bonus HP available to convert to AD, and he can reliably get 500 AD on on non crit build. If he Scales AD, he's going to be a solo lane monster.

He's very likely to be a decent jungler as well if Q has a low cooldown. Faster moving and better conceal than Evelynn , and unlike her, he can recover from counter junglers in the early game, and heal out of the damage, go back and kill the other jungler.

He also has an extremely mean method to steal jungle camps and utilize Dark Harvest. Bone Skewer can pull camps out of smite range and you can use Ghostwater Dive to approach and set it up, or just use Phantom Undertow to both Stun the other jungler AND steal his camp. You can even use that on Drake or Baron. In other words, he'd be one of the only junglers who both has a Dash AND a Ghost. Dash through walls, Ghost in freeways.

You could probably play that like a Shaco.

BLACK REALM GODMay 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

His Catch mechanism is extremely conditional and going to be suicidal in the Support role. He's got to charge his Dagger to pull with it, and the** range expands based on the time charged.**

On other words, since it needs a line of sight, other "catchers" and line of sight mages will literally obliterate Pike if he tries to be a catcher in lane.

His primary is going to be to use Phantom Undertow to get closer to the enemy in a minion-less line, and THEN charge Bone Skewer. Doing so will get him close enough to charge a pull (but is going to take damage during it) and it will flip the target behind him.

Then he will use** Ghostwater Dive to get away.**

** If the Passive scales at all**, he will be able to solo lane. There's significant amounts of bonus HP available to convert to AD, and he can reliably get 500 AD on on non crit build. If he Scales AD, he's going to be a solo lane monster.

He's very likely to be a decent jungler as well if Q has a low cooldown. Faster moving and better conceal than , and unlike her, he can recover from counter junglers in the early game, and heal out of the damage, go back and kill the other jungler.

** He also has an extremely mean method to steal jungle camps and utilize Dark Harvest. Bone Skewer can pull camps out of smite range and you can use Ghostwater Dive to approach and set it up, or just use Phantom Undertow to both Stun the other jungler AND steal his camp. You can even use that on Drake or Baron. In other words, he'd be one of the only junglers who both has a Dash AND a Ghost. Dash through walls, Ghost in freeways.**

You could probably play that like a Shaco.

doesnt expand based on time charged. it's static and has 2 versions. charged or not.

minions dont provide true sight. he'll be fine even with minions near.

not likely. most likely will use his dash to stun the opponent. phantom undertow is both the primary engage and the primary escape tool and is almost always combo'd before and from a successful bone skewer. that way you dont take damage charging or from running away.

it's bonus hp. it wont scale at all. at best you're looking at 1% - 10% hp. average max hp in game is 6k so 60-600 AD. im betting something around 5%. 300 AD seems healthy.

Q's cooldown seems to be about 15 seconds. similar to blitz and thresh.

debatable

no.

not even close. you've never played shaco it seems. support shaco especially does not play like that at all. neither does jungle shaco.

another thing. warmogs wont ever work with pyke. nor will many items in the shop. titanic hydra being one. gargoyle stoneplate and steraks gage seems interesting though

AzadetheMay 15, 20182 votes

Watch the video. Bone Skewer's Range extends as it's held. What doesn't change is the pull distance. If it's 400, that part is 400 no matter what. What does change is the range at which it can be cast from. It takes about 1 second to charge up after held.
You didn't understand what I said. Like Thresh/Blitz, he needs a clear path to pull. The way he will accomplish that is either with Phantom Undertow or Ghostwater Dive to get into position. You won't get those angles if minions are blocking. aka "Minion-less Line" (has nothing to do with a stealth conversation other than to say, that he can use stealth to get into position.
I know Bone Skewer > Phantom Undertow seems like the correct move, but it's usually not going to be. The reasoning is, Flips create more opportunities to deprive summoner spell savings and corners an opponent between two foes. Going Bone Skewer > Phantom Undertow won't do that. It will simply pull them closer, possibly stun them, and then put YOU between two enemies. That's going to result in YOU dying more in lane than the person you stunned. At best it puts you in a game of Roulette, where each team has a primary target out of place (the person you pulled and you) At worst, their pulled target has a substantially stronger kit than yours, and can return the CC favor ( ).

The safest move is actually to not compromise your position, and keep yourself on the same side of the lane as your adc. That way, you expend less skills, and have Ghostwater Dive left over in case an opposing Jungler is about to gank you. You should be using Bone Skewer to pull opponents onto Traps, not kill yourself (he will pair with Caitlyn Jhin Jinx nicely for this reason.

P.S. The stun doesn't look that long.

It scales AD.....Which there are a ton of AD/HP items.......
How do you figure? because it has a pull? Keep in mind. It has an instant function too, and Thresh's Hook isn't as long a cooldown as Blitz' and both are more powerful at securing targets, in either power or duration.

I'm thinking perhaps the instant use of Q has a Cooldown refund, while using it as a hook is going to result in longer cooldowns.

Evelynn has a horrible pre 6 game. She gets ganked, she pretty much can't get away. Even if she lands a charm, it brings them toward her, and only lasts 1 second. Her only early game grace is her Flash.
Shaco can use Decieve to Blink walls. Phantom Undertow does the same..... The only difference is one is a prime to auto attack ad the other has a built in stun. You can Phantom Undertow to start a Gromp for example, or a Blue buff. That works VERY similar to Shaco in map mobility. He doesn't have boxes.... So what?
Another Thing? I've already mentioned Warmog's won't work, and Hydra would have reduced damage.... Gargoyle's probably won't work. Sterak's is also unlikely to work because at most points in the game, it looks like Pyke is going to have less HP than it requires to activate.

Auz the RipperMay 15, 20182 votes

Sterak’s won’t work because he’ll never have any bonus health for the shield to scale off of 75% of 0 is 0

AzadetheMay 15, 20181 votes

That's TWO reasons Sterak's won't work. Good call.

My Waifu VanillaMay 17, 20182 votes

He also just doesn't benefit from base AD. Every. Single. Ratio. Is Bonus AD. He is literally buying Steraks for basically zero stats.

MetalGearTeemoMay 15, 20181 votes

Depends if the bonus health is calculated before conversion or not.

Steraks could easily still pull the bonus health number before it gets converted by his passive. it'll be a question of how its coded.

Auz the RipperMay 15, 20182 votes

I was thinking about that. My thought is that they would code the health>AD conversion to happen first to make it as unappealing as possible for a tanky build and to stop cinderhunk from acting as a deathcap

MarothennanMay 15, 20186 votes

He's gonna be a kill lane/ roam support from what I can see

EnderspiderMay 16, 20181 votes

I think he's gonna be a very good jungler too, i mean, hook + stealth + high damage what could go wrong

My Waifu VanillaMay 17, 20182 votes

Getting counterjungled because you can't contest scuttles and you get absolutely destroyed in the jungle because your base stats are terribad? Also you should refrain from using terms like "high damage" when alot of his damage are in his BONUS AD ratios.

JustMonika13May 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VKlOAo2Y,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-15T01:30:53.515+0000)

You'd think the popularity of Assassins would mean Pyke should be appealing to everybody, since people love Assassins, so making a Support Assassin should give them a reason to enjoy playing the least popular role.

Even more people happen to hate assassins and assassin mains with a passion, including many supports whose names aren’t Janna, Lulu, or insert tank support

BeatzBoyFTWMay 15, 201854 votes

Support role will be played more now since they can now utilize their favorite Assassins kit & can freely ks without being shit-talked?

What conflict are we looking at here?

AwhegarkMay 15, 20183 votes

The conflict of not being able to CS, having to ward( good luck telling an assassin main to buy a pink ward or warding item), and relying on a complete stranger to win your lane.

BeatzBoyFTWMay 15, 201836 votes

The conflict of not being able to CS

item 3302 item 3304 item 3303 [sg-lux-2]

having to ward( good luck telling an assassin main to buy a pink ward or warding item)

I mean he literally has a kit that makes him Camouflage & boosts his movement speed, so his ward-roaming is a lot safer than Bard's.

and relying on a complete stranger to win your lane.

You need to check back on what the word "Support" meant, and also, ks-ing him with your ult is not a bad thing at all.

Finally, no one's forcing that one Assassin fanboy to come Pyke support. If he wanted to play an off-role like Pyke top or jungle, be my guest.

TheDrakeBloodMay 15, 20187 votes

Honestly, I think that this is kinda going to be a thing like with Cho'Gath ult.

Normally in a game, Cho gets first dibs on 99% of kills if he has his ultimate up.

Because ultimately, if Pyke gets the kills with his ultimate, the whole team gets more net gold.

just a thought at least.

DeathBurstMay 15, 20182 votes

Not at all? More people will want to play the least popular role, how is that a bad thing?

FlemmanMay 15, 20182 votes

See it that way, as the marksmen/artilery mage/... do you want someone unfamiliar with the role to support you for "first time" on a champ who, like most assassin , will be feast or famine or do you prefer them to go on another "flashy play champ" more safe like thresh.

the fact pyke bring nothing if he isn't the one taking kill make it even worst, I can't see what he can bring to a team over other support (naut over pyke everyday for exemple) If what he bring is just the secure kill pressure, then why should he be played support in the first place and not like a mordekaiser. It seem more smart to funel gold into him and make sure he get the kill for the double gold incomeas he bring nothing else as a supp.

DeathBurstMay 15, 20182 votes

I always welcome more people to play Support. Everyone has to learn the role at some point, even those that only play meta Sup. It's not because you play Janna that you magically understand how the role works.

So then, there is the feast or famine aspect, the fact that Pyke bring nothing.... Except that's just all wrong... Heavy short range AoE slow for team-fight OR single target long range pull for picks, on the same skill, for starters, lotsa champ would like such flexibility. AoE stun is also super strong, even with a delay. Good sustain despite being melee for early lane. That's plenty of things to bring, and there have been meta Sups with less than that. See Trundle.

And yes, it seems smarter to make sure he gets the kill since that's more gold overall for the team. But then it also means you can put a non-support champ with him, because that other champ won't be gold-deprived as the Support role usually is. So the best you can say is that Pyke blurs the line between Sup and Carry, not that he's better being a Carry instead of a Sup. The comparison with Morde is all wrong, because Morde generates "free" XP for HIM, whereas Pyke generates "free" gold for OTHERS.

TyroneWatermelonMay 15, 20184 votes

People complain because it’s a retarded attempt at mixing two roles that completely contradict each other, now go ahead and make an assassin tank or marksman tank or diver support. In the end pyke is nothing but an assassin that gives others kill credit. Traditional supports and supporting in general means sacrificing abilities to directly or indirectly help teammates, such as your usual heal/shield, then there are supports like braum with unique peel and shield, thresh with aggressive hooks and lantern reposition, tahm ketch with a get out of jail free card and travel, bard with wall travel and unique stasis effect which can be used both defensively, offensively and utility wise. Yet everything pyke does is selfish and doesn’t interact with his teammates anyway except his Ult kill credit. Take that away and pyke has no reason to play as a support

IainG10May 15, 201811 votes

He has more going for him as a support than does or Annie did.....

Also, Urgot (tank marksman), and every engage tank support plus Rakan (diver supports) say hi....

TyroneWatermelonMay 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He has more going for him as a support than does or did.....

Also, (tank marksman), and every engage tank support plus (diver supports) say hi....

Nonsense.

Annie, Brand, Zyra, and Vel’koz are not designed to be supports at all, and do nothing to support their team outside of generic CC.

Urgot is a juggernaut, not a tank, he’s about dealing some ranges damage while being durable, not shredding the enemy team while also distrupting all of them.

Raman is not a Diver, he’s a distrupter support. Just because certain champions like assassins, some tanks and some mages dive, doesn’t mean you can categorize them like that. For 60 IQ, refer to divers as fighters, and diving as a strategy/playstyle

DoozkuMay 15, 20185 votes

Annie, Brand, Zyra, and Vel’koz are not designed to be supports at all, and do nothing to support their team outside of generic CC.

And yet, most of these champs are still played bot lane as _supports. _

YoNightmare7May 15, 20183 votes

Actually I never did 1) 2) or 3). Did I miss out?

BeatzBoyFTWMay 15, 201811 votes

Very much. Balance was stupid back then with:

Assassins building tanky (which means totally 0 AP) while still dealing a shit-ton of damage.
Solo laners & junglers abusing the fuck out of Support items, which leads to Support items being constantly nerfed, and in conclusion, Support role got indirectly nerfed multiple times.
People spamming MF & Camille to support role with absolutely no clue on on to play them, especially when they're blindly spamming them in Ranked.

Lady HammerlockMay 15, 20183 votes

Hey, MF support did actually work. It was a nice counter to some more squishy aggro supports.(I might be mistaken, but it was primarily picked as a Zyra counter at the time)

BeatzBoyFTWMay 15, 20188 votes

But no one gave a shit about it. They'd still pick MF even if they knew they were going up against a Thresh or Alistar.