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heimerdinger counter play bullshit

Otter4Blue·Dec 20, 2014·2 votes·2,253 views

i have before complained about the power of heimerdinger and despite the community telling me that im a fool you guys listen so i ask you to litle once again.

i understand why the turrets cost so little and i understand why they do so much damage. i still have an issue with the turrets:

i tried today a new thing with talon and went against a heimer. i wanted to play safe so i decided since i was testing out the smite on talon like it is used on zed that i would leave him defenseless. this worked at early levels 2-6. at around level 7 or eight when i came back to lane he had three turrets set up and three in stock. this caused the problem that even if i would severely damage a turret or destroyed it he always had about two on hold.

you want the game to be balanced through counter play then dont just force me to either kill hiemer or be harassed to death trying to farm. what kind of counter play is this?

i want to have more than one way to counter play a champ, as an assassin, other than killing him in lane.

14 Comments

JefftiffyDec 25, 20142 votes

Have you ever tried bringing a crystaline against him? More early game zoning and you practically force him to waste mana and then you have some mana sustain as well as hp sustain.

Kowe The EwokDec 20, 20141 votes

E+Q = dead tower if you're playing Talon. Heimerdinger's Q has 24s CD.

Nobody at decent elo complains about Heimerdinger...

P.S: Maybe you shouldn't pick a meele champion into a range. Talon can chunk 90% of an enemy's health at level 6. Don't you think he should have downsides pre-6 against ranged characters?

Sorry, it's not him it's you (considering that you are Silver IV this underlinesmy point)

SeCKS EgaiDec 20, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEvdxgiM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-20T08:46:15.981+0000)

E+Q = dead tower if you're playing Talon. Heimerdinger's Q has 24s CD.

Nobody at decent elo complains about Heimerdinger...

P.S: Maybe you shouldn't pick a meele champion into a range. Talon can chunk 90% of an enemy's health at level 6. Don't you think he should have downsides pre-6 against ranged characters?

Sorry, it's not him it's you (considering that you are Silver IV this underlinesmy point)

I don't know how one gets to siv 4 as a mid and complains about heimer considering the assassin domination in the meta.

And talon generally has the advantage against him, heim lacks mobility. If you let his turrets stay up unchallenged....

The only turret that should be truly threatening is the one from the ult.

Also - by the time you get to level 6-7 your focus should be killing him, not farming and destroying his turrets - you're playing an assassin and heim isn't very mobile. Once you kill him turrets are a non issue and you can continue to farm ;)

Otter4BlueDec 21, 20141 votes

you are all missing the point. yes i could have completely killed him if i wanted to, but i didn't i wanted to place him in a weak spot and bully him out of farm, without a kill. the fact that after level 8 i could not get rid of his turrets annoyed me not because i could not kill him but because there is no counter-play allowing someone to take you out of you position of power. and i'm sure this occurs with other champions. all i'm saying is that i don't want to have to kill those champions to stop them.

i have one example where i can circumvent the position of power of a champion: i was playing as jungle eve and could zone the enemy azir by constantly juking his q such that he did not have protection and had to retreat.

with teemo you can remove the shrooms with a sweeper (should also have a more reliable way with him)

all i'm saying that if you are against a zone control champ i should be able to take you out of your zone or remove it, without having to resort to killing the champion.

you may think this is stupid but think of this the enemy is threatening dragon and you cannot team fight at the moment. they have three heimer turrets, hiemer is fed, and you are only able to destroy one at a time safely.

here you are stuck and are essentially waiting to lose either the dragon or a team-fight because there is no counter-play to this zone control other than killing the zoner.

this is what i'm talking about, not that heimer is un-killable or is too strong, but that his zoning lacks a form of counter-play since his zoning is not timed and costs him nothing.

SeCKS EgaiDec 22, 20142 votes

{quoted}

you are all missing the point. yes i could have completely killed him if i wanted to, but i didn't i wanted to place him in a weak spot and bully him out of farm, without a kill. the fact that after level 8 i could not get rid of his turrets annoyed me not because i could not kill him but because there is no counter-play allowing someone to take you out of you position of power. and i'm sure this occurs with other champions. all i'm saying is that i don't want to have to kill those champions to stop them.

I think you're failing to realize how you're negating your own statement.

If you can force him back and survive, you control the lane, not heimer. Bullying folks out of farm is part of contesting mid lane. Heimer lacks mobility and is built around zone control. It's like why Heimer is a poor choice against LB. LB can send heimer back to the platform before he's got a chance to react. LB will basically control the lane unless heimer gets strong outside support or the LB fails to put pressure on heimer.

If you play assassins, you should be willing to accept that the bulk of your strategy will be being able to burst down your opponent or force them out of lane repeatedly. I mean what if you were playing Akali, you basically have to exploit her level 1-5 weakness or she'll just roll over you if you have a farm war till 6.

And lastly, his zoning costs him a ton. Does he get a dash, nope. Does he have multiple high damage abilities, nope. Does he have a strong burst, only when he lands an ult based rocket barrage and doesn't miss, and even that can be lacking.

If you're playing someone like Talon, killing heimer's turrets early make them practically a waste as they have a huge cd and don't hurt much. But eventually you switch to just killing him outright - eventually taking turrets out simply make you take free hits when you could just kill him outright and destroy all the turrets in one fell swoop.

Otter4BlueDec 25, 20141 votes

my point what not if i play an assassin since assissins kill targets faster than be killed im talking about other than assassins. as a tank this would be a problem. all im saying is that at higher levels there is no simple way to negate the zoning of hiemer other than killing him. (of course im assuming a close game or in the advantage of hiemer since the other case is null).

SeCKS EgaiDec 29, 20141 votes

{quoted}

my point what not if i play an assassin since assissins kill targets faster than be killed im talking about other than assassins. as a tank this would be a problem. all im saying is that at higher levels there is no simple way to negate the zoning of hiemer other than killing him. (of course im assuming a close game or in the advantage of hiemer since the other case is null).

{quoted}

i do not want to nerf damage or tankyness of turrets. i want to increase recharge time but that would be unfair. so ill settel to limiting the stacks to two rather than 3

Do you know how long it took for him to get his 3 turrets back? When I started he had already lost his third turret and it wasn't till maybe last season or so I think he finally got his 3rd turret back in the re-work.

He's designed to create zone control at the cost of having no mobility - fights aren't expected to be on equal ground 1v1, certain champs do better against others. I can't remember the last time I even saw a heimer in high elo play (not that I watch a ton of streaming).

In the current meta, he often ends up being more a liability than an asset. Even if you zone out the enemy mid, he's not equipped to do anything if the enemy begins to roam into other lanes.

But you really need to reevaluate your original statement of wanting counter-play, particularly if you are playing as counter to heimer and then complaining about the heimer. If you can't recognize that, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to call it a lack of counterplay bs.

AtheosisXDec 20, 20141 votes

Have you played as Heimer? The cooldown on his turrets is brutal, especially early, and they die fast. Yes they can be difficult to deal with for melee champs but that's the point. Heimer has no mobility and is squishy as it gets. If you nerf his turrets he becomes an easy target for every ganker in the game.

Otter4BlueDec 25, 20141 votes

i do not want to nerf damage or tankyness of turrets. i want to increase recharge time but that would be unfair. so ill settel to limiting the stacks to two rather than 3

AtheosisXDec 25, 20141 votes

Still an unwarranted nerf.

WizzleboomDec 20, 20141 votes

Just wait for the charged beam to vanish then toss your razors at it and the minions. It should one shot the whole wave easily

Drunkèn MasterDec 22, 20141 votes

Is this a serious post, because I been roflmfao for about 10mins now. Did it make sense to anyone?

TerffDec 24, 20141 votes

Guess what... if you kill his turrets before he puts a bunch up, heimer is completely useless. Also ranged.

Leblancs BoobDec 25, 20141 votes

Heimerdingers severely lacks counterplay in lane other than survive and try to get as much cs as you can under tower. That being said after laning phase he forces his team into a 4v5 because he really can't do much other than lane. He needs a rework pretty bad imo, as just buffing him will make him too oppressive

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