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@Rioters, Fearless, Meddler, Ghostcrawler, Phreak, PLZ continue listening to us despite backlash

Altricad··67 votes·8,320 views

First off, I know now is a turbulent time and being a jg main myself, the recent changes are frustrating to myself, but I can't help but feel sorry for the Rioters who take time and come talk on the forums where the crowd RELENTLESSLY downvotes them to oblivion for having a different view.

PEOPLE PLZ, THEY"RE HUMAN too, of course they'll make mistakes, of course they'll tend to disagree with us, of course they're entitled to believe their own opinion first!

If I was in a situation, I'd take my friends/co-workers advice over someone I barely know.

Riot can't just go around completely trusting what some random players, no matter how much they played the champion, say to heart, that would mess up the game! If I was gonna take advice, then that would be CLEARLY COMPARED, SOLID advice that CHANGES my opinion. You're not gonna convince me with a pitchfork bud!

But unfortunately, MANY of the upvoted threads that are visible are ones that seem to "excessively" curse out the balance team/whine about their champion being unviable.

Yeah, you're gonna get a TON of attention, but take that sh*t to bugs and fixes, you're not gonna get a comment for that thread.

I used to be one of the ragers on the forums, who would constantly upvote "Nerf lee sin" or "Delete Akali" threads without further thought. Of course, we can crack jokes about some champions being annoying such as calling "Morgana 3-year snare" etc. or 'Remove Teeemo", yeah they're annoying and we joke about it.

JOKES, REMAIN JOKES. Don't bring your sh*t into legitimate threads that point out what Riot have said, and plz NUMBERS and QUOTES. Hardly, have I seen a legitimate thread that quotes stuff from other posts or number changes.

Meddler posted about Zed having counterplay, with respect to his Ulti duration being long enough, and WHAT did you guys do?? Downvote him to oblivion instead of explaining. Meddler then argued by comparing to other obnoxious AP assassin, mainly Ms. No cd Akali . What did you guys do? Yesh, Downvote him again, saying that Zed's split pushing was too good.

So, ofc, they nerf his attack speed so that he can't split push that good. AND OMG, SOOO many QQ threads complaining that Zed isn't getting nerfs WHEN HE JUST GOT NERFED. Obviously we weren't clear, WHERE we wanted Zed nerfed, so Riot went with what they believed was the problem. You can't just rage at someone when you weren't clear. And that thread about being disappointed with a dumb as f*k meme had the highest upvotes when the threads that REASONABLY explained why zed's harass should be nerfed dissappeared under it.

And on the Lee Sin QQs, when Phreak posted about him "Feeling" strong, many of you agreed and yet there are still "Lee SIN is OOOP" threads going on.

Bruhs, Do you even READ? You say he "only feels strong" and then you say "he IS strong". And people say Fearless is inconsistent when he is TRYING his best!

Inb4 people say "Sona needs buffs", yes I agree, base stat wise Sona is weak, but really, and with completely honesty, do you think any champion can press an ability from a certain range and just deal guided damage to 2 targets?

No, that is just stupid. And that was "pre-nerf" sona. They nerfed her range and buffed her passive damage. Bad idea, the "DAMAGE" is much more "VISIBLE" than the weaknesses. Riot saw that and decided sona needed nerfing. VERY False. The damage is "Visible" because everything else about sona is "WEAK".

A detailed post explaining this would be nice, but NOOOO. All we get on gameplay and balance are "item 3070 R.I.P sona" Without a GOOD reasoning on how to make her less frustrating outside of just All-inning her and killing her in lane.

Just now, Meddler posted that they are going to try to change Mordekaiser into a more tanky kinda guy. But, ofc no one notices it since you're all busy making, "MUH QQ" threads instead of searching for "Intelligent" posts on balance. And when moredekaiser gets changes, ALL of you will QQ "R.I.P assassins Mordekaiser".

Fizz changes were discussed by another Red waaay before pbe and that his "troll pole" was meant to be a frustrating aspect that they had no plan to remove and that they were gonna nerf his q's damage as it was too high. but NOOO Dumb as sh*t idiots think they moved the 20% damage increase from Ahri to Fizz and STILL QQ about it without reading patch notes, and want his troll pole to be removed/ changed.

Srsly, it's stuff like this that makes me lose hope in the community.

tldr; Stop being so harsh on the Reds, if I had to point out all the stupid practices of the community I'd run out of my lifespan, learn to post intelligently. And @Reds, pls don't give up on us. Many of us are stupid ( me included), but we need you to post despite the backlash. Thank you for posting today

70 Comments

RiotFearless42 votes

You don't have to worry about us not listening. Every Rioter understands that we only get to do the work we do because of the awesome gamers that play League. There's a lot to be said for people being a bit more civil, but we're not going to go away because of a few people being aggressive. Most of the rage here comes from people that love the game but disagree with the details of a change, or the reasoning we've given for those changes. Even those people show something awesome, in that they care so much that they can't help but be upset.

That being said, it's a lot easier to talk on here when people aren't telling me of how much the hope I get eaten by zombies in the near future. That's just basic human nature. I'd much rather jump into a thread that has some meaningful discussion rather than try to fight fires, or point out when people are blatantly distorting our attempts at communication.

TLDR: We're not going anywhere. :)

ChimeiTekinaNasu7 votes

{quoted}

That being said, it's a lot easier to talk on here when people aren't telling me of how much they hope I get eaten by zombies in the near future.

Yeah...I remember that exact comment, too... I also found that to be highly unnecessary to say and considerably rude. =P

Goldenwolf143 votes

I just have one thing to ask Fearless, and that is why did you guys decide to go through with many of the changes that were introduced in this patch, when even before they went live the general census is that these were not good changes? Now I am not saying this to criticize you or anyone working at Riot but I am generally confused and I believe I am not the only one who would like to know why.

PS Thank you for all the work you are doing to try and calm things down Fearless, and even though I do disagree with your ideas sometimes I appreciate your work like I'm sure many others do.

Arveanor6 votes

I would guess because if they listened to what was being yelled the loudest on boards at the time we'd end up with a really shitty game after a few months.

Goldenwolf143 votes

I am not saying they have to respond to everything or even listen to everything on the boards. I just find it odd that they don't acknowledge a lot of large and generally smart and supported discussions on that focus on the balancing of the game. I know they can't talk to everyone, that would be impossible, but when there is such are large backlash to a change before it is released but it still goes live anyway I think it would help for all players to learn the reason why they were so dead set on the changes before they are released, and maybe even talk with some fans about solutions to the problems.

Arveanor2 votes

I think it would be hard for me to have taken that as the meaning of your earlier comment, but it's not a bad sentiment all the same.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

it wasn't just the boards. Everyone hates the 100g change. Not alot of people like the new jungle. I certainly despise the EXP gain for the amount of time it takes to clear each camp. Its disgusting. you spend 10-20 seconds earning as much exp as a duo bot lane. What the hell kind of logic is that? It takes 5-10 seconds as an adc to clear a wave with the support helping you push assuming you have mana for the wave clear spell(graves Q... etc)

kunkudunk1 votes

Which changes are you referring too? If it is the dfg changes I know many many people who are glad it is gone, myself included. Means champs can be balanced for what they do in their kit, not with a bonus bomb from an item that can't miss. If you mean the sona nerfs or jungle changes to the items, idk what to say for those. Sona is frustrating for some to lane against i guess but a breeze for leona and blitz to handle, and i hate leona and blitz soooo.

Goldenwolf143 votes

I mainly mean the changes to jungle item, Ahri, and lack of nerf to Zed changes which had generally negative responses from both idiots who just like to yell but also the intellectual players of the game, who had valid arguments to why the changes were unwarranted or not enough (Zed).

Retillin3 votes

Fearless I am glad you live up to your name to come to the forums. And I find it sad when it becomes personal attacks to you and other Rioters. I always feel bad when I see that.

But I think you are wrong on where the rage comes from.

"Most of the rage here comes from people that love the game but disagree with the details of a change, or the reasoning we've given for those changes. "

While I agree that some of that is true. Sadly I think a lot of the rage has to do with what FEELS like Riot being dishonest. When we see a Rioter say "we know such and such is a problem" but we see/hear no idea or reasons for it not to be touched. I don't want to bring up examples (we all know there are a few things that people feel a lot of voices are being ignored on) and hijack the thread.

But I do think it's telling when I see a Red post down voted so much that I have to click it open to see it. I think that is a good thing. I hope it shows that either the Rioter didn't understand what the issue was and talked about something else, or that the people on the boards are not happy hearing (what feels like) the same old "soontm" "diversity" or other buzzwords that have taken on a meaning of "eh we don't SEEM to care".

HowPlayGAEM5 votes

{quoted}

That being said, it's a lot easier to talk on here when people aren't telling me of how much the hope I get eaten by zombies in the near future.

If this is not regarding my comment then ignore the following text.

If this IS regarding my comment, then I am deeply disappointed you understood it that way; it seems the nuance of language at Riot is the same as the nuance of balance: nonexistant. I guess I can't package the message in a joke (since it was misconstrued so easily), so here it is bluntly and literally:

You stated that you have teams of people to gather global data points and my statistic is irrelevant. You say your team's data supersedes the forums and the PBE. You say here you value meaningful discussion, yet the occasionally meaningful discussion on the forums is rendered null by the nebulous data you use. There's no reason to have meaningful discussion if it ultimately ends up unread and unheeded.

I, as one out of 40 million, do not matter. My forum posts do not matter.

So tell me, if I am irrelevant to you, why should you be relevant to me? Why should I help you fight zombies? You don't have my back, why should I have yours?

Refusing to help you fight zombies is NOT the same thing as wishing you were eaten by zombies. Yes, I am deeply disappointed you misunderstood. If you misunderstand something as simple as language, can you be trusted to understand something as complex as balance?

The answer is no.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Or alternatively, text format is shit at conveying information.

For instance, wanting to emphasize key points by PUTTING THEM IN ALL CAPS...can be interpreted as aggressive rage.

I get eaten by zombies in the near future.

Maybe that's a compliment. Zombies = Immortal, Getting Eaten By Zombie = Become Zombie

Rinky Dinky3 votes

Ay, As long as Sona gets some attention, because we can all agree she is in a very... Anti-Fun spot if you will right now, then I believe.

I hope some changes will be coming along with the ultimate skin. Those stat changes I feel are only another nerf to an already weak champion compared to her peers. However, if kit changes (Aura's???) are coming along as well, no problemo. Something needs to be done to keep Sona as a healthy, fun, and balanced addition to the game. Her theme as a longterm Aura distributer needs to be brought back and maintained.

She isnt the only one, but she is obviously a priority considering the nerfs, why not just fix the problem?

Kyrtian2 votes

Also, i like you. Major props for having the balls to comment recently on the fighter overhaul. A lot of other rioters stonewall every time that topic is mentioned, and the radio silence gets maddening. I would say that and the east coast NA latency issues are my biggest issues personally

Vesarixx5 votes

I'd much rather jump into a thread that has some meaningful discussion

Like this one here? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/abXPdY0E-riot-an-open-letter-on-fostering-a-healthy-playstyle-for-sona

Death is best CC3 votes

You need more upvotes.

PokladnicaZla3 votes

{quoted}

You don't have to worry about us not listening. Every Rioter understands that we only get to do the work we do because of the awesome gamers that play League. There's a lot to be said for people being a bit more civil, but we're not going to go away because of a few people being aggressive. Most of the rage here comes from people that love the game but disagree with the details of a change, or the reasoning we've given for those changes. Even those people show something awesome, in that they care so much that they can't help but be upset.

That being said, it's a lot easier to talk on here when people aren't telling me of how much the hope I get eaten by zombies in the near future. That's just basic human nature. I'd much rather jump into a thread that has some meaningful discussion rather than try to fight fires, or point out when people are blatantly distorting our attempts at communication.

TLDR: We're not going anywhere. :)

I know I will get downvoted into the VOID for this,but here it goes. I understand you guys that it´s not easy to communicate with us (cause of flame,bash or even verbal abuse),but try to undertsand us too.Im not saying the Sona didnt deserve nerfs(or that she did),but Im kinda disapointed you nerfed a champions while the community had shared their opinion that Zed/Lee is pretty strong right and needs to be looked at,but you still went on with nerfing Sona while leaving champions that have caused a massive amount of talk just about them for some time.

I ask this with as much respect as possible.Has there been any talk about Lee&Zed?That is in what am mostly interested in.

Pika3103 votes

You don't have to worry about us not listening. Every Rioter understands that we only get to do the work we do because of the awesome gamers that play League.

Inherent proof you are **NOT **listening to players:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-update/sona-maven-of-the-strings

I can't speak for any of your specific colleagues, though. Stashu in particular has been praised for communicating with players and at least TRYING to find a usable kit. You could learn a thing or two from him, especially when you've come here on the forums and condescendingly stated that you intentionally ignore players:

and I valued a less buggy release over communication

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/c99MUnvw-an-open-letter-to-fearless-regarding-the-sona-changes?comment=000600000001

The PBE was unanimous that they did not want the 4.13 nerfs, yet they were pushed to live regardless. It was promised she would have an extended testing period on PBE, yet it was the exact same time as other reworks: 1 month. Riot Jag stated they would never drastically change a champion's range because it would be overly disruptive, yet you contrarily felt nothing about removing 700-650 units on 3 abilities simultaneously.

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

Just know this fact:

Your individual actions are single-handedly losing Riot money. A great many players have opted out of buying DJ Sona because of the nerfs you made to her on 4.13 and since. Some players have even sworn off buying RP altogether.

I strongly recommend gaining some business sense. Riot is a company, but your personal hatred of Sona is clouding you to this fact.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

Most of the rage here comes from people that love the game but disagree with the details of a change, or the reasoning we've given for those changes.

Or the lack of reasoning, rather.

That being said, it's a lot easier to talk on here when people aren't telling me of how much the hope I get eaten by zombies in the near future. That's just basic human nature. I'd much rather jump into a thread that has some meaningful discussion rather than try to fight fires, or point out when people are blatantly distorting our attempts at communication.

If players are responding to you negatively, in all honesty you have only yourself to blame. It's a matter of cause and effect, most people will not unjustly attack somebody. The players that speak to you in an angry tone, are in fact angry because your personal actions and/or words are what's angering them. They're innocent bystanders, but they feel they must take an aggressive stance because you have offended them in some way to make them feel threatened.

As to what specifically you've erred in a manner that offended the players, I can't say. It could very well be a combination of things, but the fact of the matter is that you are the party at fault. You are the independent factor and the players are the dependent. At this point, your reputation is already stained, the best you can hope for is redemption and if you're lucky enough, eventually forgiveness.

To get there though, you first need to set your arrogance aside, stop nerfing Sona and admit the "rework" was a nerf outclassing that of Olaf and rivaling Evelynn. Only then can you move forward.

Narasimha9 votes

Its the Ahri QQ that really pisses me off this time, honestly. People going "OMG I CAN NEVER PLAY AHRI THE SAME WAY AGAIN!!! GG ASSASSIN AHRI"

I mean, really? Literally nothing of her actual kit was changed. You still charm them, and you still burst them. The only difference is that now, Charm isn't exactly a free win for hitting it. If a 20% damage boost meant THAT much, then something was probably off in the first place.

Subject 57 votes

No words for this post, no words . . . oh well back to playing the same 20 champs again. I'm certain the morde update will make him a lot more played than the current status he has, just like Sion, cas, Sona and Ahri. Right.

Altricad6 votes

Why? Because rioters are inhuman and they have no other thing than to listen to your criticism right? 20 champs? Pretty sure there were 67 picked last year in the summer split

Pika3106 votes

... and less than half of those champs were played multiple games to reasonable effect.

Teridax683 votes

The main thing this board needs is a Rant/Venting section so that people can express their frustration. The climate on the Gameplay & Balance is not a healthy one, mainly because of the sheer amount of hostile and non-constructive posts, and it's often difficult to find good discussions because they tend to be buried under the much more popular hate threads.

chumbler4 votes

{quoted}

The main thing this board needs is a Rant/Venting section so that people can express their frustration. The climate on the Gameplay & Balance is not a healthy one, mainly because of the sheer amount of hostile and non-constructive posts, and it's often difficult to find good discussions because they tend to be buried under the much more popular hate threads.

Yes, riot should clearly move all criticism to a separate, ignored forum. That's definitely listening to feedback. You know why the posts are hostile? Because they're doing a shit job and not even pretending to try.

Teridax686 votes

Again, there is a difference between legitimate, constructive criticism and plain venting, which is what you're doing here. Want Riot to improve their game? Tell them what you don't like, tell them why, and tell them how you'd like things to improve. Insulting them and their work does no good to anybody. There was a post on this by Ghostcrawler a few hours ago:

{quoted}

The more targeted and actionable it is, the more useful it is for us. I can go tell the balance team "Boards say you suck" and they would kind of look at me and say "Okay, what changes in how we adjust champions should we make?" and I would say "You just suck." There's not really a lot of direction for improvement there.

I suspect a big reason why Rioters don't even post here as often as they're expected to is because of the sheer amount of harassment they receive when making even the smallest comment. On one hand, I do think Riot sort of missed the mark in trying to make the boards the main hub of League of Legends discussion (Reddit is still a really popular channel for pro players, who never post here), but on the other I don't think these boards will ever hold up to that goal with the current atmosphere of negativity, one you're perpetuating right now. I'd love to see more criticism of Riot, especially on things that don't just revolve around board flavors of the month like Zed or Sona (the state of marksman itemization could be a great subject for discussion, for example), but right now it's difficult for that to happen when an overwhelming number of threads and posts are basically tantrums. It's also bad that said tantrums are pretty much always more popular (and therefore more visible, in the boards' current format) than any kind of well-written, mature discussion, so the toxic climate we currently have just feeds into itself, reinforcing similarly negative comments while pushing away higher-quality posts.

LongFur Fox6 votes

Problem with that is that most people do not realize they are ranting and not contributing anything to the discussion. Look at the cassi threads and tell me how that would be different if we had a rant/qq forum.

Teridax682 votes

This is true, but is also pretty depressing, since it just shows super-low expectations of the boards' overall level of maturity. If we really do want to feel like a major motor in League's progression and development, and not just like a bunch of angry children, then we need to step up our game. If we can't even do that, then in the worst case we'd just need mods to dump the negative part of the boards somewhere away from the more productive discussions.

LongFur Fox6 votes

The main problem is that 90% or more on the gameplay & balance forum thinks they know a lot about balance and gets angry when they think they are not heard. Sure riot could explain every thread why an idea would be bad but then that would require a huge amount of time and potentially make players feel like riot just shoots them all down. The forum needs some outline threads to give an idea how an idea is presented and general guidelines to what popular ideas would do (both good and bad).

Also note that I have here assumed that we can somehow remove all the qq x champion is broken threads.

All in all riot is fighting a battle where they either can put a ton of resources into it and maybe still lose or just do what they do now and lose.

Teridax682 votes

I still think we can have healthier boards, though. In the absolute worst-case scenario, one possible solution would be to just kick negative posters off the boards, and aggressively maintain healthy discussion at all costs. Even if activity on the boards ends up being only a fraction of what it is now, at least the remaining threads would be a lot higher in quality, and much more helpful to everyone. Right now, the level of commitment on both sides is massively lopsided: a great deal of posters expect Rioters to answer to every thread, give detailed explanations to their decisions and even just change the game in direct response to their personal comments, but so far the community has never really been expected to be polite or constructive, let alone friendly or helpful. If we really do want to be on the same level as Riot in terms of the impact we, the boards, make on the game, we need to abide by the same rules.

LongFur Fox3 votes

Oh I agree the boards could be in a lot better state. I however don't believe that change has to come from riot. As I see it they have a very good system and a surprisingly large amount of activity. I can write a lot less formal and binding posts than the reds and I still don't feel like posting in more than 1 or 2 threads per day simply due to most people either not understanding or not wanting to understand why their suggestions have bad impacts.

All in all if we want better boards it comes from us first and then after that we can ask the reds to post more but we as players and posters got to make the first move.

Teridax682 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongFur Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEgEbuEj,comment-id=000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-30T11:07:41.522+0000)

All in all if we want better boards it comes from us first and then after that we can ask the reds to post more but we as players and posters got to make the first move.

I definitely agree that this is the first thing we should consider. However, I'm not so optimistic as to the results. Right now, the dominant climate on the boards is one of self-perpetuating negativity, where it's not only easier to rant than to make a productive discussion, but also more rewarding, since you're more likely to get higher upvotes, approving comments and visibility by like-minded players. Most of these posters I'm pretty sure also have no intention of changing or even genuinely contributing to the game, no matter how indirectly, and so would never improve their behavior unless forced to. In a lot of ways, it would be more likely to expect players to improve their behavior on their own within League itself, and without a report system, than to have them do the same here, and it's clear from the community's in-game behavior that that would never happen.

LongFur Fox3 votes

Oh I am sorry if I seemed optimistic about it. I am actually quite sure it will not happen unless we get a "report for spam" button which aggressively gave timeouts to people. However if that happens there will be complaining about riot banning people they don't want to hear because riot suddenly has a big conspiracy thing going on.

Until then we can only hope that a member of the balance team is kind enough to give us guidelines on what a productive post is.

Teridax681 votes

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there would be accusations of censorship and #RiotPolice/#ModsAreMurder memes running around, but I still think it would be better than the current situation where posters harass and insult Rioters while simultaneously complaining that they're not getting any attention. Worst case scenario, those conspiracy theorists could get kicked out too. It's pretty much a lose/lose scenario, but one I think where making a change could lead to a huge improvement over time in the boards' behavior, and so would be worth the loss.

Solaxo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongFur Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEgEbuEj,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-30T10:39:13.223+0000)

The main problem is that 90% or more on the gameplay & balance forum thinks they know a lot about balance and gets angry when they think they are not heard.

They're players so they know whether they like changes or not. If champs like Lee or Zed keep being dominant and Riot nerfs Sona for no reason instead... then I'm not surprised that community is angry

LongFur Fox1 votes

I bet some players (zed mains) would like it if we buffed all zeds ratios to be double the value they are right now. Now of course this would be a bad decision but it is just an example that the community unfortunately are not always happy with the correct change.

The problem with balancing a game is that it is not an easy task and it is not always obvious what has to be done. Let's look at your examples:

Lee: I have yet to see a thread that actually proposes what to nerf about him. To be honest I don't think he needs to be flat out nerfed. He needs to be moved from his generalist role where he can do almost everything and fit with every team comp and into a more specialized pick. This brings the problem of moving him away from being able to do something and since riot want to keep his highs and do not want people to feel like they changed lee sin to a new champion it is not a simple thing to do.

Zed: I honestly do think zed is a healthy assassin. He could do with a slight nerf to his waveclear maybe but other than this he falls off heavily during the late game where people get qqs and zhonyas. This is why he begins split pushing since he can no longer teamfight and that is what riot nerfed to make sure that he actually falls of late game. All in all I would say they hit perfectly with their nerf.

Sona: Come on riot explained this in length. I am not going to do it again here since I rarely play support and I therefore have not paid enough attention to remember their explanation.

Retillin1 votes

You had me agree with except on the Lee thing.

"riot want to keep his highs and do not want people to feel like they changed lee sin to a new champion it is not a simple thing to do."

You are right it's not a simple thing. But most of the complaints against Lee Sin has to do with how he is hurting jungle diversity. Would you agree with this? If he is, and they keep champing the over all jungle (items/monsters/smite) but not him, then the work they keep doing is at best a side shift and not a move forward of backward. So we can't have half the Rioters come on the forms and say "he's in a fine spot right now" and the other half come in and say "we understand he needs to be changed for the health of the jungle". If there is that much double speak from Riot people, I believe have the right to question the quality of the balance team.

LongFur Fox1 votes

Oh i agree that he should be changed. The question is how to change him in a meaningful way without it just being a flat out nerf (I do believe he is balanced he can just do to many things). That is why i said "riot want to keep his highs and do not want people to feel like they changed lee sin to a new champion it is not a simple thing to do." since it seems riot wants to change him but not how to.

On questioning the ability of the balance team then they would also get flag for doing another olaf'ing where they just nerf him until they get a good answer so I until I begin seeing catastrophical failures from them i will question people posting on these boards before their balance team.

Retillin1 votes

I think you and I are not on the same page with the term "balanced". It seems, I may be wrong, that you think of unbalanced champs as those that are face-roll or OP burst? I think of unbalanced champs as those without a weakness and no counter play. (not counting the same counter play you can use for every other champ ie "just stun him") If a character can do so many things well, fit into every team comp, and has almost zero counter play I do think he's unbalanced.

When they Olaf'd Olaf (man that just doesn't sound right), they at least admitted that he was a problem and were going to have to look at him. Same with Poppy or Galio or Urgot. Champs that have to be kept down to prevent them from warping the game experience of others. Take Lucian last season in the LCS. He had a sub 50% win in the LCS and yet kept getting picked because he had almost no counter play and was never weak at any stage of the game. They saw their mistake and changed him (lowered auto attack range, dash, ect...). Even Kassadin after a while got a change. The one champion that did get slight nerfs and stayed at a top 3 pick all year was Lee Sin. That, to me, is the whole crux of the argument. If you have a champ go through that and still stay a top pick, then no real meaningful change was done.

And if they do these love tap nerfs and he keeps staying on top while half of the Reds you see saying his balanced/maybe under powered and the other half of Reds on the boards say he is a problem you can understand the frustration and mistrust in the balance team.

Hope I didn't come across as too combative.

Raptamei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongFur Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEgEbuEj,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-01-30T10:17:22.606+0000)

Problem with that is that most people do not realize they are ranting and not contributing anything to the discussion. Look at the cassi threads and tell me how that would be different if we had a rant/qq forum.

And? Incoherent frustration is a signal too.

Not everyone needs to be Obama's ghostwriter to be able to indicate an issue they're having.

LongFur Fox3 votes

Incoherent frustration is a signal indeed but not a very helpful signal especially not if repeated. The only effect it has then is to blur the real discussion and keep away everyone who just views the thread casually. Actually I cannot see how incoherent frustration helps anything at all.

Now incoherent frustration in cassi thread was mainly "reverse the rework and apologize and then we might forgive you" which literally added nothing after being posted the first time (this was posted about 10 times if not more). Other incoherent frustration can be zed is op he bursted my full build tank in 1 second (because IE, shiv, bortk, etc irelia is a full build tank) which does not really help either.

Compared to saying: "It is too hard to split against zed. He has too much sustain in enery+lifesteal and can escape from ganks too easily." the incoherent complaining does nothing. It gives riot no idea what they should change or how he is frustrating. (I do not share that opinion but this is an example)

If you have an example of incoherent frustration where it actually helps in a discussion please do post it.

AquariusGine3 votes

There are people here who only live to post negative things. I won't mention names but it's a shame really. I don't even know why they continue to play if they hate Riot so much.

Not referring to those who give constructive criticism, but those who only go .. Riot is a shit company.. complete utter failure.. revert Cass rework you morons..

Direwolfiez8 votes

I dunno about you, but I only really post negative things when I get so fed up with the state of the game and the current level of communication between players and Rioters that I just can't hear any more excuses. This is literally the worst state I've seen LoL in, and granted, I've only been playing since Season 3, but still. I have literally 0 motivation to play the game, so whenever I actually do want to play, I avoid normal PvP matches in SR and just play ARAM; at least Riot doesn't touch ARAM, so there's nothing that can go wrong with it.

Cuix6 votes

As someone who has been playing since Season 1, I guarantee you that the game is WAY better now than it has been since pretty much ever. Still, the overall experience is not as good as early/mid S2, but that's because in those days we still had lore and open dialogue along with a not yet optimized meta.

Oh, and I also get super fed up sometimes and just toss out a vent post in my Righteous Fury. Cass, Trundle, lore in general, support changes... yeah. It's not about trolling; it's about just being really damn frustrated after a long while trying to be polite and constructive.

chumbler4 votes

{quoted}

There are people here who only live to post negative things. I won't mention names but it's a shame really. I don't even know why they continue to play if they hate Riot so much.

Not referring to those who give constructive criticism, but those who only go .. Riot is a shit company.. complete utter failure.. revert Cass rework you morons..

When constructive criticism gets ignored in favor of blatantly terrible ideas like the Cass rework, people tend to get mad.

PS Your immediate response to someone criticizing riot who says they don't play anymore would be to tell them that they shouldn't post here because they don't play the game. In your world criticism of Riot is not allowed.

LongFur Fox5 votes

To be fair some people during the cassi thread did almost nothing but qq. I remember a few comments on how riot might be forgiven if they revert the change and apologize which really added nothing to the discussion. And those posts where not single posts but many posts by a few people.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Lately, G&B feels like the bad parts of GD used to feel.

I can't believe how many Rioters say something they intend to be a constructive discussion starter and get absolutely ripped to shreds.

No wonder Riot likes Reddit.

MotherChurch3 votes

I definitely appreciate the effort Riot puts forth engage with the players on this Board. I might not agree with all their "balance" changes, but I respect the effort they put forth.

/salute

Pyrocerebus2 votes

thanks for posting this man until recently I've been considering maybe quitting this game because the community isn't the great and especially the boards which are in a very,very scary place right now hell I've even seen some death threats to rioters in my time here and I'm really getting tired of seeing the same freaking posts its starting to feel like theirs never any new ideas being posted

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