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# Revert Veigar nerfs

Altricad··143 votes·4,873 views

Let's start the movement! #RevertVeigarNerfs

I'm sick and TIRED of this #LCS BIG PLAYS and mobility meta that riot heavily favors.

I've had enough of Chasing down this stupid champion across my jg while eating her long range poke and letting her outrun me anyway Nidalee I've had enough of "Jukes" ( 5 second dashes and blinks) by Leblanc who also had LOADS of cc I've had enough of getting kited to oblivion by Kalista and being unable to smite-steal ANYTHING while she has her rend I've had enough of LeeSin ALWAYS having a "backup" escape through ward hops and how he didn't get ANY NERF this cycle while vi and J4 got hit And you know what? I'll TRY to live with that, I'll live with all the mobility you throw at your game and plan to ( Bard allows people to walk through walls gg) But, removing our options is NOT welcome. We NEED our mobility counters

Veigar was not just an Anti-mage. He was the pinnacle, the icon and the Savior to the Toxic Mobility meta. He was the "Anti-moblity" mage.

Nerfing him like this is a HUGE spit to our resistance to mobility! Revert the nerfs Rito!

EDIT: 273 votes to 38. I'd like to thank the community for rallying to the aid of Viegar, and if Riot truly does not acknowledge this, then I have lost all hope in them

Here is the original lee sin ward hopping should stay thread.
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=10422813#10422813

See How Riot acknoledges their mistake for Lee sin?? Why Won't you do it here Rito??? Where on EARTH are you Morello??

67 Comments

A Superb Villain63 votes

https://41.media.tumblr.com/5b42715438b387ab40004de32d0fa70f/tumblr_nkdzozpT3S1unr7u3o4_500.png

CupcakeTrap14 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nk2IbgxX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-03-02T05:22:41.777+0000)

https://41.media.tumblr.com/5b42715438b387ab40004de32d0fa70f/tumblr_nkdzozpT3S1unr7u3o4_500.png

I wish I could upvote this more.

"Warning! Stun will activate in .75s. Please move slightly to the side if you wish to avoid being stunned.

LANWhale3 votes

Superb.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Where'd you find this? Or did you make it yourself?

A Superb Villain2 votes

http://askthemyordles.tumblr.com/post/112140525810/i-feel-nothing

Far be it for me to claim another's work as my own; I found this in the depths of tumblr.

DeusVult1 votes

Should be a quote

Mr Wright II19 votes

#REVERT THE CHANGES!

JusticePauldrons11 votes

Biased polls are the best polls. Veigars stun was broken due tot he fact it was an instant stun that had the same immediate effect of a j4 ultimate. It forced he enemy to either get stunned or practically get stunned by standing in the center and could potentially lock down an entire team. This was way too powerful for an instant cast ranged ability on such a low cooldown.

So here is my question to you, would you have preferred it having a small delay to add counterplay, or putting it on a 40 second cooldown for how much power it had? Honestly I think the change was smart, as this will allow them to add power to the rest of his skills without breaking him.

Altricad27 votes

To be fair, I'd have taken a 20 second cooldown with RELIABILITY for landing all my spells instead of a useless stun zone that prevents me from doing anything. They could buff his dark matter to REALLY high numbers but no difference would be made as veigar can't land it on anyone that keeps moving ( except for bots)

Veigar would've rarely been picked in LCS if long range/zone control champions like Orianna/Xerath/Ziggs were still being used. The nerf to mana regen lead to a burst of mobility pick/manaless picks and veigar was picked for his ability to counter them. Riot isn't acknowledging the problems instead they're creating new ones. Veigar would've never been nerfed if he wasn't picked in LCS

Eedat1 votes

How can you tell me he was nerfed because he stopped LCSBIGPLAYZ when LCSBIGPLAYZ ultra-mobile Kassadin was gutted in the exact same patch?

Klatn Yelox3 votes

Its because the whole idea behind LCSBIGPLAYS behing the only thing Riot cares about is a fucking sham. Just because the skills are simpler, or don't involve jumping over 7 walls and your mother, doesn't mean you can't make plays with them. Putting your E with them in the center forces them to make a choice. Do they burn mana or cooldowns to flash or jump away? If not, they have to guess. Can they react in time to walk out, and do they have enough movespeed to do so? If not, they stay put. If so, they go for it. I have stuned many people who thought they could make it out, and couldn't. The new buffs to W help a lot too. The q is now a skill shot, so it isn't good? Bullshit. Not only can it farm about 1.3 times as fast as the old one (which is why they nerfed the ratio on ult), but you can now throw it out of vision to clinch kill the enemy after they flash away, and many other things. You can be running away, and poke from a longer distance than the cast range, because the projectile has a movespeed, and you are moving away. This allows for kiting in a chase, as opposed to simply a math game, who is faster. All of these mechanics help you make plays, and ALLOW for plays to be made by the enemy. No champion should be based purely on whether the player can hit one instant ground targeted skillshot. None. That is the opposite of Riot's design value.

DivineGodKing1 votes

The only thing you're missing is the people who are stuck inside his e aren't stunned it means champions like kass, fizz, ahri, annie, liss, kat, morgana, leblanc, anivia, diana, lux, brand, viktor, syndra, malzhar, orianna can all outrade you while sitting in the center of your E. If you don't think so try too 1v1 them while they're not stunned and your q and w are skill shots. And that not too mention that this post is right riot loves mobile champs fizz, ahri, kass , morgana, kat leblance diana Liss even tf all have escapes and once your stun is down its over for the Anti mage. Lets move on too adcs vayne graves lucian, kalista, sivir and Caitlin all can leave you stun completely fine. Now lets say you do trap someone in you W. They aren't stunned but they're inside trading with you. You drop your W into the center of your E and you know what anyone with half a brain in this game is gonna do (that you might not have realized yet) walk into the stun. Because viegars stun doesn't do dmg his W does now i dodged his main dmg ability his q is probably down as is his ulti and he's dead. please explain how this makes sense.

Klatn Yelox1 votes

You see, the thing is that once they do walk into the stun, you can walk away. But if you are smart, you can prevent them from dodging it, by placing it so that part of the stun is on a wall, or has minions blocking it, so you effectively zone them into dodging in the direction of the damage. Also, with the duration of the stun, your q should be up either during or just after the stun again.

About those ADCs. Ezreal and Sivir are the only ones I can think of that can escape unstunned, because the rest still pass through, and are stunned at the end of the dash.

SEKAI6 votes

You forgot to mention Kassadin and his mana cost on mobility and the fact it's his ULTIMATE. Yeah if he has infinite mana he has infinite mobility but really, I only played Kass like twice in bot game when he was free some time ago, maybe I am not doing it right but I had trouble Riftwalking more than 3 times in a row with FULL mana.

True he had a spotlight, then he was nerfed, changed and nobody since found him to be trouble. But,

While nobody complained anything about him, I don't think he really got any spotlight at all recently either (maybe a bit) then BAM a nerf straight into his face like he deserves it.

Of course the community is mad.

He clearly isn't in Riot's LC$BIGPLAY$ group, when he was under the spotlight, he received a nerf as his reward.

WuWo21 votes

{quoted} Veigars stun was broken due tot he fact it was an instant stun that had the same immediate effect of a j4 ultimate.

Except J4's ultimate does damage and J4 himself doesn't rely on landing his ult to achieve fulfill his role. Veigar's entire kit, however, relies on landing his stun.

{quoted} It forced he enemy to either get stunned or practically get stunned by standing in the center and could potentially lock down an entire team. This was way too powerful for an instant cast ranged ability on such a low cooldown.

The thing about Veigar's E is that you're either stunned or not. "Practically get stunned" doesn't exist. The inside of the cage covers actually a large area—to the point you can move easily inside the cage to avoid partial damage (if not all) from the W. Since Veigar's abilities are close ranged, you're free to fire off your arsenal inside the cage. If you're an ADC, he's likely dead with four autoattacks.

In addition, the E was not and still isn't, an instant cast ability. There is a very minor cast time on it (I think it was .25 or .5 sec? I don't remember). Veigar counters dashes and excels at locking down certain areas. Fitting as he is useless after he places his stun and bursts a squishy. All his spells have relatively long cooldowns for basic abillities and have absurdly high mana costs (I think one of the highest for any champion) that overpower his passive early on. After he uses all his spells, his cooldowns shut him down for the rest of the teamfight, as teamfights are relatively short, forcing him to autoattack.

{quoted} So here is my question to you, would you have preferred it having a small delay to add counterplay, or putting it on a 40 second cooldown for how much power it had? Honestly I think the change was smart, as this will allow them to add power to the rest of his skills without breaking him.

I'll answer this question for him. I'll rather have his old kit because it synergized better and, actually, made sense. His current kit is a mess and assumes that your opponent has the intelligence of a household plant. The old one was far from perfect as it relied away too much on his E (which is why it was powerful in the first place). You don't land an E? Well you're dead. But, the old kit was superior.

You argued that the change allowed him to add power to the rest of his skills. In fact, it's just the opposite. His Q made his laning phase worse; Veigar's only reliable harass was his Q and now it's a medium speed, low range, and easily dodge-able skillshot. Everyone knows that once Veigar used his Q, you're free to go ham on him as all all he can do is auto attack. So now he's even more likely to be pushed against the turret. You might argue that he gets more AP from the double shot. The amount you get is not even close to double. There is a finite number number of minions that spawn in X minutes. In addition, minions are rarely perfectly lined up and your opponent has more power over you after this Q change. His W is worse; without the reliable stun, the lower mana cost and slightly lowered cooldowns are worthless. His E, well there's enough discussion about that. It's obviously worse. His R has its ratio nerfed quite a bit, mana cost lowered, and cooldown lowered. Riot lowered the ratio, erroneously thinking that his new Q doubled his AP farm. It didn't. It also was quite contradictory to Riot's emphasis on Veigar's late game and burst potential. The cooldown buff is minor at best as you don't really use it that often as the length of a teamfight is short and teamfights themselves are rarely back to back. In conclusion, even after his core item was removed, his entire kit was nerfed (although his Q was a mixed bag).

CupcakeTrap8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Old Prophecy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nk2IbgxX,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-03-02T02:39:45.111+0000)

The thing about Veigar's E is that you're either stunned or not. "Practically get stunned" doesn't exist. The inside of the cage covers actually a large area—to the point you can move easily inside the cage to avoid partial damage (if not all) from the W. Since Veigar's abilities are close ranged, you're free to fire off your arsenal inside the cage. If you're an ADC, he's likely dead with four autoattacks.

Yes, this. Ask any Veigar main what happened to Old Veigar if he missed his stun: he got obliterated and contributed nothing to the fight. Well, New Veigar just always misses.

And I agree on laning. Veigar is now an easy lunch for any decent mid. He always was, but at least before he had SOME ability to fight back:

  • Old Veigar could use his Q to harass back, whittling the enemy down so that they couldn't dive him, and potentially setting up a kill if he managed his mana carefully and could afford a full rotation (or got a good gank). That's no longer true, both because his new Q is terrible for harass and because he has no ability to lock down the enemy for a full burst.
  • Old Veigar was actually pretty good at helping his jungler in ganks. New Veigar cannot stun someone 1v1 unless they're either already stunned (and he throws his stun on top) or the enemy literally chooses to run into the stun and get stunned. It's not like Cho's Q, where it covers a large area (filled circle) and you have to react immediately and decisively to get out; it's a ring, and you need to move hardly at all to avoid being stunned.
  • Old Veigar could intimidate the enemy a bit once he got his ultimate and a reliable mana source, at least if the enemy decided to go glass cannon and stick around at 30 MR. He could basically force them to either start building more defensively, or to land their killing combo first; if they just derped around and ignored his threat zone, he could 100-0 them if he landed his stun. None of that applies anymore.

All in all, it's not just that Veigar is weak, though he is. He's just…less interesting. He can no longer 1v1, so all that high-tension dueling is gone. In teamfights, well, he throws his stun somewhere (doesn't really matter where) and hopefully someone doesn't notice and walks into it, or gets split off from their team (although again, it's a huge area, and standing in the middle of it hurts you in no way whatsoever). Then, he just lobs damage around and hopefully hits something. If a squishy gets low, he can R them, assuming he somehow manages to get close enough to do that without getting pounced on by the front line.

These changes are so, so bad. So terribly bad. It's almost a parody; it's like you're now being forced to play Veigar badly. Previously, those were the two hallmarks of trash Veigar players: you try to farm all lanephase instead of fighting off the enemy, and you toss your stun indiscriminately rather than hitting with the edge. Well, that's New Veigar. You're basically being forced to play bad Veigar.

Kail2711 votes

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted tbh. Veigar's stun was way too powerful previously. I agree, something needed to be done. My issue comes in with the execution. Reddit has had a couple great ideas about how to work this out in a way that helps Veigar, rather than making him unplayable. My favorite thus far has been the thought of cast time increasing the further away it is cast. For example, the stun would drop almost instantly if Veigar dropped it basically on himself, then gradually increase cast time as it reaches max range (.75 second cast time). This allows for Veigar to defend himself from the high mobility assassins he has so much trouble with in lane, but keeps him relatively balanced for teamfights.

JusticePauldrons1 votes

It doesn't really matter to me that much, I know I gave a good and well thought out response, just because other people would like to cover their ears and scream to drown it out doesn't make it any less true. His stun was ridiculous, any amount of deep thought into the subject would give anyone the same conclusion. I am glad they changed his stun, he needed it in order to get more power in the rest of his kit. If people would rather have him stay the same at a low tier that is fine, they can have their opinions and they likely don't understand what they are changing. I personally like your idea about the cast time being longer the further out it is.

Athenes Lulu11 votes

Unfortunately Rito is against "undodgeable" stuns, so most likely, they won't revert it. Meanwhile they need to leave their little princess Annie untouched.

Maybe a MUCH shorter delay or even add in something INSIDE the cage would help.

We can only hope...

Retillin2 votes

Well now you say they area against "undodgeable" stuns. Yet we have Annie as a pick and they don't seem to mind. And hers is easier to land. So again, it's Riot saying one thing and doing another.

l Main Renekton1 votes

To be fair, Annie's is usually used along with a flash.

Veigar has always had the potential to catch people by the edge of it at greater range.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

Well now you say they area against "undodgeable" stuns. Yet we have Annie as a pick and they don't seem to mind. And hers is easier to land. So again, it's Riot saying one thing and doing another.

They have been against anything that doesn't promote "counterplay".

LyraSona9 votes

{quoted}

Veigar was not just an Anti-mage. He was the pinnacle, the icon and the Savior to the Toxic Mobility meta. He was the "Anti-moblity" mage.

Exactly. Now you understand why he had to be eliminated. He was giving the masses hope. Hope is dangerous.

Just give in to the LCS. Any other attempts at rebellion will be quashed immediately.

Klatn Yelox2 votes

You see, the problem came because it went against his theme. A tiny beacon of evil should never be allowed to give hope to the masses. That just ain't gonna fly.

Rikari7 votes

Veigar Would you kindly stop moving....please...i need it... :'(

Sammystorm5 votes

Why do we want viegar's balance to be based off of his stun's power?

Audiomancy7 votes

A 1.2s delay says why.

Retillin1 votes

I think people would be fine he his power (balance) was not based off his stun. However, until they rework his WHOLE kit that is the way it is. This is a nerf to his current kit.

1st HanarSpectre2 votes

Op you have 0 veigar game in your last 50 played. But you do have plenty of Kalista games. You literally just made this post to circlejerk and get pointless upvotes on a dumb forum. Congratulation.

not a starburst10 votes

Gee, I wonder why people play a lot of Kalista.

Might it be because she's terribly designed, toxic, and a headache? Or maybe it's because she's overpowered and wins you games for practically free if you know how to play her right and your support has any grey matter at all.

Raptamei15 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nk2IbgxX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-02T06:32:00.341+0000)

Op you have 0 veigar game in your last 50 played. But you do have plenty of Kalista games. You literally just made this post to circlejerk and get pointless upvotes on a dumb forum. Congratulation.

I don't play Veigar. I had no issues dealing with Veigar and feel insulted that Riot added a delay to the stun as if I was too stupid to find other ways around it.

I can see why OP made this post.

CupcakeTrap12 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nk2IbgxX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-02T06:32:00.341+0000)

You literally just made this post to circlejerk

Either you're not using that word correctly, or OP has some very unusual proclivities.

Eedat2 votes

How can you tell me with a straight face that Veigar got changed because he stopped LCSBIGPLAYS when they simultaneously gutted LCSBIGPLAYS Kassadin in the exact same patch?

Orbv5 votes

They gutted Kassadin because he was finding success everywhere. They gutted Veigar because he saw success in Korea.

Sammystorm2 votes

I don't understand this argument. Instant cc like viegars fucked immobile champs way harder then mobile champs.

Thryale1 votes

not true. instant cc screws all champs equally because it's instant there can be no dodging.

Sammystorm1 votes

It is substantially harder to escape before or after you got stunned if you had no follow up mobility. Also quite a few skills behave like flash and allowed you to blink through the cage. Also not having a dash or blink made it easier to get caught by viegar because their is less places that champ can go to.

HeadHonchkrow2 votes

Revert teh stun!

Hetchy2 votes

Um, there was recently a Red expounding on the abolute necessity of LCS-centric balance.

That ship has sailed.

Thryale1 votes

sauce?

OJ1912 votes

I wouldn't even mind them DELETING THE ENTIRE ENEMY AP RATIO OUTRIGHT if it meant they would revert all of the 5.4 changes.

Tangstang2 votes

So i read/lurk alot on here, but don't post. I have plenty of veigar games played and own a few skins for him. I really enjoyed playing as old Veigar, I've only got a few games played with the new Veigar but his Q I feel was a nerf as he farmed great before and now enemies can flash or just dash out of range. His W is kinda useless now unless you lead them into it(if they're chasing you to the point you can do this you're probably already dead). His E is just worthless. That's all there is to it, the skill is not reliable at all and that means Veigar is dead.

Bring back the old Veigar!

LostshinE2 votes

"We want to buff Veigar as the removal of DFG..."

Nahh...U CALL THIS BUFF!?

mjack331 votes

He was oppressive in bot lane, and too powerful in later team fights. #intelligentlybuffthe****outofveigar

Thryale1 votes

then explain why I was always called a troll when i took veig supp bot?

mjack331 votes

{quoted}

then explain why I was always called a troll when i took veig supp bot?

Because people are sheep.

X Frady1 votes

Better nerf Rito

bluddragon1 votes

I would like to see them reverted, but it's riot...

Kuroi861 votes

No, the change should be reverted. He needs more tweaking, the delay is way too long. But sadly, some sort of delay was needed. About the only people that think Veigar wasn't toxic are mains that insist that having no window of counter play is just fine due to his range.
What he needs is a bit more range and cut the delay down to .5 or .25

PalPlays1 votes

{quoted}

Let's start the movement! #RevertVeigarNerfs

I'm sick and TIRED of this #LCS BIG PLAYS and mobility meta that riot heavily favors.

I've had enough of Chasing down this stupid champion across my jg while eating her long range poke and letting her outrun me anyway Nidalee I've had enough of "Jukes" ( 5 second dashes and blinks) by Leblanc who also had LOADS of cc I've had enough of getting kited to oblivion by Kalista and being unable to smite-steal ANYTHING while she has her rend I've had enough of LeeSin ALWAYS having a "backup" escape through ward hops and how he didn't get ANY NERF this cycle while vi and J4 got hit And you know what? I'll TRY to live with that, I'll live with all the mobility you throw at your game and plan to ( Bard allows people to walk through walls gg) But, removing our options is NOT welcome. We NEED our mobility counters

Veigar was not just an Anti-mage. He was the pinnacle, the icon and the Savior to the Toxic Mobility meta. He was the "Anti-moblity" mage.

Nerfing him like this is a HUGE spit to our resistance to mobility! Revert the nerfs Rito!

EDIT: 273 votes to 38. I'd like to thank the community for rallying to the aid of Viegar, and if Riot truly does not acknowledge this, then I have lost all hope in them

Here is the original lee sin ward hopping should stay thread.
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=10422813#10422813

See How Riot acknoledges their mistake for Lee sin?? Why Won't you do it here Rito??? Where on EARTH are you Morello??

What about a compromise? Reduce the delay to .25 seconds from .75 seconds.

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