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@Meddler, I understand your plans for Veigar, but you didn't consult with us the community first

Altricad··94 votes·5,480 views

What you're planning to do to Veigar is changing his playstyle. Yes, aganist a "Good" veigar player, the stun has no counterplay besides "staying away" and that certainly is "unhealthy", but if I remember correctly a few years back, there was a "change" to the playstyle of Lee Sin LeeSin that the community didn't like. And the balance team IMMEDIATELY pulled it out

Maybe you could make him better than before, but then again, the feeling of success you get as veigar when you master that instant stun is no more. THat is a HUGE change to his playstyle JUST because he "needed" counterplay. IMO, that was a bad move aganist veigar mains, who've spent hours getting used to it.

THen again, you probably won't respond to this since it's not a worthwhile post, but it feels like you didn't consult your players before you decided to work on Veigar whereas you did it for lee sin before pulling out all the proposed changes. ( Which many lee sin mains didn't like, but THEN you listened)

Even Mordekaiser got his changes reverted ( although he got his damage nerfed overall). I feel you didn't discuss as much with the community and although this may be a "Harsh" accusation, many say you're balancing because veigar counters the mobility picks in LCS. Ghostcrawler himself said mobility champions pay for it, but when League is filled with abilities/champions that punish -immobile champions ( morgana snare, nidalee spears etc etc). There aren't especially many that counter punish mobile champions. Veigar was one of the few that could do it without feeling overly un-fair.

In fact, I doubt many in the community feel "frustrated, helpless, and un-favoured" when they get stunned by veigar. And when the community doesn't have a problem with it, why change it?

EDIT: I just realized. Their idea of "He can now farm better with his double q!", is just Riot's way of deceiving the community into fighting each other, every veigar main so far has said that his double q just shoves the lane if used improperly. Double q is a nerf overall

67 Comments

Rrett65 votes

You seem to be under the impression riot gives a shit.

After they randomly gutted cass out of the blue, a lot of the dedicated cass players started actually interacting with the rioters on the boards, and there was a lot of discussion between them.

Riot ignored every input they received from that discussion. I'm not sure they used a single idea they discussed with the community.

Hope that puts it in perspective for you. Even if they discuss it with us they still ignore us.

Irony.

blueberrypancake2 votes

Cass is a top pro pick, was there buffs?

brad26 votes

{quoted}

Cass is a top pro pick, was there buffs?

as i understand it cass was buffed to be insanely strong, but not at all how cassiopeia players wanted her to be like

so while she is seeing play, it isnt because the rework was a success, per say, only because she was buffed to a ridiculous level

Digitality15 votes

Those alleged "Cass players" are delusional. Her play style is largely intact. If they didn't want to spam E before they were playing her sub-par anyway. She's always been a DPS mage with some DoTs.

addendum: Oh no! facts I can't contest, better downvote and not say anything.

1st HanarSpectre14 votes

{quoted}

Those alleged "Cass players" are delusional. Her play style is largely intact. If they didn't want to spam E before they were playing her sub-par anyway. She's always been a DPS mage with some DoTs.

I bought Cassiopeia on release, that's what I've been saying ever since they reworked her, E spam is always what she did best, but people just like to complain, I'm guessing a lot of them never even played her back then, they just circlejerk downvote.

Kowe The Ewok12 votes

You sir have no clue about the old Cassiopeia if you say her playstyle is "largely intact". Absolutely no clue.

Digitality7 votes

I have no clue... I've only been playing her for 3 years.

Watch some season 2 tournament play with her in it. They were taking her for DPS, and commentary in the matches acquiesced as much. With the stat tuning that happened with the season 5 changes recently there was no way she was going to retain more damage on her poison.

She also used to lack the item synergies she has available to her now.

They moved numbers around, they didn't alter her play style for anyone that was playing her to even upper-mid range potential. Q/W have always been for harass/zoning and setting up for her E spam when the opening is there. I get it if people wanted to play her as a DoT mage, but to claim that as some form of core identity to her is fallacious as all hell. It was never her real strength and it was never the optimal way to play her.

Kowe The Ewok6 votes

You're trying to bullshit the wrong person here.

I've played Cassiopeia since release, back when people would call her UP before she became fotm a year later.

I've loved the champion and climbed the ladder with her while being flamed by every metasheep which used to call her UP.

There's a difference like day and night between her former and current playstyle.

Well, at least that is if you were competent enough to land your Q and play her to her maximum potential, rather than doing the no brain W into E spamm like it is popular now by people who're still unable to land a Q though the delay even got shortened....

Digitality1 votes

Again, Q was a means of engaging E spam. I'm not sure how landing Qs standalone made her any more useful or is something to be proud of. I covered that under harass/zoning. Everything about Q/W was used in tandem to maximize E potential where possible, and for harass/zone when not.

About the only point I'll concede is that it's easier to manage poison up-time than before, because you don't actually have to when the enemy melts after 2-3 fangs.

What is your point? I'm really not certain. You're not actually debating anything I've said, instead making insults and dismissals without much foundation to support your position. Is it that it was possible to play a DoT Cass while not tapping into her E heavily and be anywhere near optimal?

She's always been DPS. Do you actually dispute that?

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

I never said she wasn't about DPS. Every DoT spell is about DPS.

You are trying to accuse me of saying stuff I never said. There's no point in discussing with somebody like you. So I'll stop here instead of wasting my time.

Digitality1 votes

You were never actually discussing anything with me in the first place. You have been skirting around making an actual point. I ask you to define your position is and you focus on nuanced bull shit while leaving out all other context. Either you just don't have one, or you've come around and realized that you actual agree with my position but don't want to admit it.

The insinuation that I've put words in your mouth is strange. I've been doing exactly the opposite actually, by asking questions to get a clearer outline of your intent.

As a traditional gamer I tend to look at DoTs as slightly separate from straight DPS. They add to overall damage output sure, but they're also a bit set & forget. They don't always require active management to yield results. It's nitpicky as hell, I'm aware.

My overarching point is that "Poison Cass" as a core identity is a fallacious position that is constantly being argued for as being lost in her rework. In reality it never existed as a stand-alone play style worth a damn when separated from her core DPS mechanic in Twin Fang spam. For all practical purposes she plays exactly the same way she used to. Numbers were shifted around and gated, but her mechanics stayed the same.

You could make an argument for over tuning those numbers in the wrong spots, because she really does require less effort to yield optimal output now. The people arguing that she somehow lost her play style are just wrong though.

DeusVult10 votes

she used to have balanced skills

now all of her damage and utility are on 1 spell, and she's only 'op' because they buffed her numbers to a ridiculous state to get her rework to stick

Altricad2 votes

Lol, I just posted this cuz I was frustrated with how there was nothing for veigar on pbe yet. I was expecting this thread to get downvoted to oblivion. Kinda surprised it got so many views/upvotes.

Well, I hope Riot gives a sh*t based on the small buffs to tank junglers on pbe and does something for our little evil yordle item 3070 Veigar item 3070

Rrett3 votes

Something we've learned from meddler is they only use the PBE for bug testing it seems.

As for the veigar changes those are coming mid next week ish so they can get a better grasp on what they need to do. Although they could just ask dabox... But riot doesn't like working with the community so they're going to fumble around for 4months - 2 years before they resolve veigar.

I'm expecting them to just give him on him over other champions in a patch or two.

Salt Miner 49 Er3 votes

{quoted}

You seem to be under the impression riot gives a shit.

After they randomly gutted cass out of the blue, a lot of the dedicated cass players started actually interacting with the rioters on the boards, and there was a lot of discussion between them.

Riot ignored every input they received from that discussion. I'm not sure they used a single idea they discussed with the community.

Hope that puts it in perspective for you. Even if they discuss it with us they still ignore us.

Irony.

Wow, it's like a widespread version of Scruffy on the original Skarner rework.

Tetris Chemist13 votes

that was literally his only line of defense tho you miss that and you're fucked now it's basically a non issue if you ever want to play him again "ohohohohoohoh he can farm easier" "ohoohohohoohoh his ult is op" wow, nice, he can have a skillshot q with the lategame cd nerfed and he can farm. can he do anything else? no? ok.

Dengeden9 votes

Veigar was pretty much the Rammus of mid lane. Was Rammus manageable? Sure he was but only with proper vision control and over-all pressure. Both of them forced you to gimp the lead you'd normally have against him by getting some form of anti-CC (and the jungler would most likely need to get Mobi's). You could still maintain your lead but doing so was slow, agonizing and annoying. Being forced to camp for your team because the enemy is constantly trying to outnumber you, can be incredibly vexing. In the case of Veigar, you'd still manage to be ahead if you did those things because:

  1. His wave clear was atrocious (compared to standard mid laners), which meant constant turret pressure for your team. Furthermore:
  2. He has no reliable poke. This forced him to wait for an initiation with the occasional zoning W thrown in to kill the caster creeps.
  3. The reliable part of his kit (Q and R) wouldn't kill anyone (1v1) until later on (unless the enemy mage actually got an early death cap, in which case they deserve to lose). At that point you got QSS, GA and/or Hourglass, forcing him to play around that.

And when the community doesn't have a problem with it, why change it?

Because, with the removal of DFG (which was already pretty gimicky) he wasn't a viable mid laner unless the enemy screwed up. Losing versus Veigar because you couldn't keep your cool for 15 minutes is pretty frustrating. Veigar support was kind of an identity issue, pretty much the whole solo lane Soraka dilemma in reverse. Though I wouldn't mind them reverting the changes just because he was mixing up the support meta.

On to getting my share of downvotes:

[...] but when League is filled with abilities/champions that punish immobile champions (morgana snare, nidalee spears etc etc).

Sorry, but neither of those abilities should hit you unless they're thrown from FoW (vision control) or you are CC'd (every champ is subject to that). Though I won't deny that mobile champs are more or less exempt from the infamous Thresh hook mind game and similar abilities.

There aren't especially many that counter punish mobile champions.

And, arguably, there aren't any that don't also punish immobile champions. And for the last time, forcing an enemy to dash away from you is a victory (objective control)!

MrBuffington2 votes

On to getting my share of downvotes:

Take my +1. That'll show you :3

Altricad2 votes

{quoted}

Veigar was pretty much the Rammus of mid lane. Was Rammus manageable? Sure he was but only with proper vision control and over-all pressure. Both of them forced you to gimp the lead you'd normally have against him by getting some form of anti-CC (and the jungler would most likely need to get Mobi's). You could still maintain your lead but doing so was slow, agonizing and annoying. Being forced to camp for your team because the enemy is constantly trying to outnumber you, can be incredibly vexing. In the case of Veigar, you'd still manage to be ahead if you did those things because:

  1. His wave clear was atrocious (compared to standard mid laners), which meant constant turret pressure for your team. Furthermore:
  2. He has no reliable poke. This forced him to wait for an initiation with the occasional zoning W thrown in to kill the caster creeps.
  3. The reliable part of his kit (Q and R) wouldn't kill anyone (1v1) until later on (unless the enemy mage actually got an early death cap, in which case they deserve to lose). At that point you got QSS, GA and/or Hourglass, forcing him to play around that.

Because, with the removal of DFG (which was already pretty gimicky) he wasn't a viable mid laner unless the enemy screwed up. Losing versus Veigar because you couldn't keep your cool for 15 minutes is pretty frustrating. Veigar support was kind of an identity issue, pretty much the whole solo lane Soraka dilemma in reverse. Though I wouldn't mind them reverting the changes just because he was mixing up the support meta.

This was a well written response and I'll respond to it. You say veigar makes it difficult for the enemy team to get a clear lead on him, but if you ask me there are WAY worse offenders in this case, mainly those who snowball very hard with items. Viegar did scale with items, but most of his burst was single-targeted, meaning even if he was very fed he couldn't pentakill your whole team coughKatarina cough

I do agree tho, his q and r wouldn't kill anyone if he didn't have enough AP, but in a way that risk is similar to Talon . You either kill them or you don't. It's your ability to judge when to all-in or not that wins you the game. Kinda rewarding although many will say "Binary"

And for DFG, I've seen quite a few posts say that veigar wasn't affected that much since most of the time DFG was overkill by the time they would've normally purchased it ( except for tanks)

Strategically speaking, there are mage champions that fill niches

Long-range poke: Xerath Ziggs Velkoz Short-range/DPS : Lissandra Cassiopeia Swain Karthus Medium-range : Syndra Brand Malzahar Annie Orianna Assassin : Katarina Akali Nidalee Fizz

But, then Veigar was unique. A champion that can potentially counter all the above with the nature of his ulti.

Annie is threatening your whole team? Flash ulti and watch her disappear!

And for this, veigar ( like you said) has zero poke, poor waveclear but good zoning potential. He truly was "compensated" but unique with his kit. Riot decides to ignore how he's already compensated and says "let's make veigar like every other mage!".

Then again, if that was what was good for veigar then people wouln't complain, but seeing as how they didn't TRY to give him compensation for delaying his stun and not knowing how it would cripple him ( Meddler said "Now we know he's too weak with the changes") , something tells me Riot has no idea What or WHO veigar is and that they'd take ~6-12 patches to give him a new identity

FantasySniper1 votes

{quoted}

But, then Veigar was unique. A champion that can potentially counter all the above with the nature of his ulti.

Because being able to "counter" any other mage is healthy for balance.

His enemy AP scaling on his ult is bullsh!t, and should be removed or at least gutted.

Then he can be allowed to get somewhere.

Altricad2 votes

You do know that Gnar literally counters the entire class of immobile bruisers Trundle Chogath Nasus Renekton Shyvana Hecarim Darius DrMundo on top right? And that compared to a certain yordle, Teemo He has PERCENTAGE % MAXIMUM hp MAGIC damage. Completely un-itemisable.

Elise has CURRENT and MISSING hp damage but she has mana. This little jerk is Gnar MANALESS

Veigar is the LEAST of the problems for "balance" while all these other elements exist.

And veigar is hard countered by AD mids Riven Zed Talon Yasuo who can pick up a item 3140 for the stun when laning aganist him and wreck him. Heck, you can "counter" your counter with a item 3157 and block his ulti

Veigar's playstyle is fine as it is. I'd rather have him this way instead of overloading and overbuffing him like a certain gorgon-woman Cassiopeia

FantasySniper1 votes

At least Gnar doesn't have easily applied hard CC 100% of the time.

Catching Veigar out is difficult because of his ranged stun and 100-0 combo. Catching Gnar out is slightly less difficult since if you just CC him properly, you'll most likely survive his next few attacks long enough to finish him off.

You also assume that the state of another champion completely incomparable with Veigar is a good enough reason to leave him as unhealthy.

Veigar's binary playstyle between AD and AP matchups is because of his ultimate scaling off of enemy AP. Get rid of it and he'll have the power budget left to be able to do something against AD mids.

Big Bang Bob6 votes

Why wouldn't they just show where he's casting it during its cast time and have no delay? Now Veigar only has to remember champs can see where he's placing it for a half second, and I can attempt to evade.

Altricad1 votes

^ THIS, sooo many things the balance team could've done and the only solution they came up with was to GUT it? Seems ridiculous if you ask me

Ark Angel HFB5 votes

Sad thing is that the company was build around community feedback as this all came out of a community mod.

But you don't have to look very hard to find evidence that the community isn't valued as it once was.

Lore Retcon... Largely was not liked by almost everyone in the Lore community... but it went through.

Karma rework turned her into a boring dull champ that has none of the same feel as old Karma.. and her pick rate isn't any higher.

Trundle lore retcon, since his skills didn't change, was also largely not liked....

Trist re-work killed AP Trist, something that was health by all standards and has been in the game since day one. and many do not like the spalsh are... but that is a minor note.

For almost 2 years people have been complaining about Lee Sin... and that he has BOTH mobility and damage... and an ult that pretty much a press three buttons to remove carry when used right... and it isn't that hard to use right, don't fool yourselves... this isn't UMVC3 single frame links... his shit is easy to do. But he remains constant as both a problem and a balancing point... which is illogical and a sign of power creep.

Now the recent V change... which many do not like.

I'll give them credit... new zill is neat...

Still there are a lot of disappointments in this game... and most come out of a willful lack of communication and engagement.

Apogalacteum5 votes

I was given access to the PBE right before the Veigar changes hit. I assume it was because i have 300+ Veigar games and counting. So they picked me to test the changes and voice my concern. Obviously, I was completely unhappy with the changes, and upon my 3rd game of testing the new Veigar, I began to weep like a small child. Consequently, I proceeded to write a well thought out post about the changes. I was under the impression that my opinion would carry weight because Riot values the opinions of their paying customers, right? Ha, good one. My post, along with several other concerned voices, was completely ignored and the Veigar nerfs were implemented to live. Why would they give so many players PBE access and proceed to completely disregard our opinions? Do they simply favor #LCSBigPlays far too much to have any champion capable of shutting down the League of Mobility?

Veigar: loses his core item Riot: "Don't worry, buffs for Veigar soon!" Veigar players: "k cool" Riot: completely guts Veigar and kicks him to the side of the road for the vultures to eat Veigar: is at 40%-ish win percent "Rito, please. I am dying." Veigar players: "wtf rito plz" Riot: "haaaaa fuka yuuu"

Liek if u cri evritym

Narog4 votes

Riot used to be all about player interacting , they were very mature and never took anything that personal , now it the opposite they are as distant as possible taking decisions that doesn't take in consideration the champions full kit into account ,they are just giving this corporate messages and then we just wait for the guttering.

Bombkirby3 votes

It depends on the designer I think. Some do ask the community for Feedback. There was a ton of that with Skarner while others like Cass rework was just sort of done without consulting us. I don't "RIOT DOESNT GIVE A SHIIIIT ABOUT US" is the logical reason why this happens.

We're LUCKY they even consult with us sometimes though. Almost every big company ignores the community. I'm not mad even if they ignore us here and there. The important thing is that they are following up on the changes and fixing it and talking to us finally. A mistake has been learned about and they're trying to correct it. Same with jungle diversity.

Kingsgrave10 votes

{quoted}

It depends on the designer I think. Some do ask the community for Feedback. There was a ton of that with Skarner while others like Cass rework was just sort of done without consulting us. I don't "RIOT DOESNT GIVE A SHIIIIT ABOUT US" is the logical reason why this happens.

We're LUCKY they even consult with us sometimes though. Almost every big company ignores the community. I'm not mad even if they ignore us here and there. The important thing is that they are following up on the changes and fixing it and talking to us finally. A mistake has been learned about and they're trying to correct it. Same with jungle diversity.

The nature of communities in general whether it be in politics or in game design are cutthroat and volatile and honestly almost never productive.

Nobody wants change and nobody will ever want it. If riot only made changes based on what the community wanted the game would've died years ago.

Ancestor0073 votes

But I'm also certain there have been good suggestions over the years. I have been playing for only 1 year, so I don't know very much but I'm certain riot didn't listen to more than 3%

FantasySniper2 votes

This is a good thing.

Less than 5% of the threads on this board even suggest a solution based on a correctly perceived problem.

How often have you seen people just complain about "Champ X" and give a fix worth remembering?

aperson11 votes

If player feedback being listened to is a privilege, I'd rather have none of it than have it be applied inconsistently.

Digitality3 votes

"the feeling of success you get as veigar when you master that instant stun is no more."

lol... all other things aside, that ability was ridiculous both defensively and offensively.

Audiomancy4 votes

that ability was ridiculous both defensively and offensively.

On anyone else? Sure. Imagine LeBlanc with a 2.5 second AoE stun on top of her mobility.

But on Veigar, the squishy, immobile, single target mage? It was fine. More than fine, he was dependent on that stun for everything. Without it, he's just...Veigarbage.

Digitality2 votes

It was major stall against pushes, and strong engage when needed.

He needs a stun, but not an immediate massive cage like that taking up a large amount of space denying angles of approach while usually isolating a target. They probably should've given him something smaller and retained it's instantaneous nature.

Seriously that ability was extremely strong, and not difficult to use like the hard sell is going now in several threads.

Audiomancy2 votes

Not difficult to use? It has a 0.5 second cast time on top of a 0.75s delay. The best you could hope for is to trap someone inside the cage. And that's still not enough. There's way too much room inside to move around and considering Veigar's main damage output is now in his skillshots, he needs to stun an enemy to even come close to killing something.

Digitality2 votes

I'm referring to it's original form. I thought my use of past tense language would confer that.

I don't think Veigar was "OP broke as shit", and I don't think it was a prolific problem that existed. However, I've never enjoyed dealing with the mechanics of his event horizon, because there was simply no dealing with it. When his team is ahead he's using it oppressively, and there's little opportunity to go in against the enemy team. When his team is behind there's no pushing in on a turret with that fucking thing up. Usually leading to a massively stalled out game that arrives at the same conclusion anyway.

Once upon a time with skilled play I could do things like Riven Q hop over the wall, but the QQ was so hard about that counter play that it was removed. Meanwhile Jarvan players were like "...wut?" Now it seems we're back here and the damn thing is finally being dealt with.

Audiomancy2 votes

Yes, it is being dealt with.

And now it's garbage and Veigar has lost 2 skills because of it.

Altricad1 votes

Exactly, if they felt his cage was too overbearing, they could've decreased the radius and/or decreased the duration until he completely maxed it.

It was literally his ONLY strong point outside his ult. Xerath could stall MUCH longer and poke your whole team under your turret. Azir could just shove everyone out and prevent them from coming close. Yasuo wind-wall blocks all poke you can throw What is weird is how they decided to completely GUT it. So many other things they could've hit ( even the cooldown)

Thumpin3 votes

Veigar was in the trashcan before the rework. I guarantee you they will buff him.

LeeDark6 votes

Not meaningfully. They'll play with his numbers a little until he is slightly above 40% win rate, but they won't give him much needed mobility or help him land his stun. A few years down the line, maybe they'll give him a real rework, but I don't hold Riot's reworks in high regard. From my point of view, they've had ONE successful rework. Sion.

Sammystorm3 votes

you know people keep complaining that riot removed veigars stun because of the counterplay against mobile champs. I just don't see it. The stun fucked immobile champs more then it did mobile ones. Like many champs could still blink through the cage.

Ark Angel HFB1 votes

{quoted}

you know people keep complaining that riot removed veigars stun because of the counterplay against mobile champs. I just don't see it. The stun fucked immobile champs more then it did mobile ones. Like many champs could still blink through the cage.

I mean it was for a bit... we had a bit of a siege meta early last season... but that faded away after ziggs was removed... because ziggs you could play Lux or Syndra into... but not really zed due to ziggs safe range.

Gragus was also part of this siege meta... but he could reworked, and while the rework is cool... gragus Q can't be used how it once was.

Thing is most mobile champs... are shorter range making the stun more effective.

Immobile champs have tools and range to keep range most of the time. Think Lux, Syndra, malz, and other have abilities that out range the stun... and so there is this dance of throwing out skills while avoiding the stun. And that dance can be hard... but it was fun... it allowed good V's to get in when they had to, and smart enemies to poke and harasses him back.

It was smart measured footsies like in street fighter... instead of mash offensive abilities to open people up like in UMVC3...

And that is where the real imbalance in the game is right now... Your best defense is more often than not a strong engage. where as most immobile champs are based on reactionary or strategic defense. The meta shift a few year back and while the tank, then busier, then assassin, meta came and went and the adc meta is still here... immobile reactionary meta hasn't really every been a thing.

Sammystorm1 votes

well viegar always has had a leg up on everyone in terms of that dance. What he lacked and others didn't was reliable team fight damage. However veigar's stun has never been fun to play against. It viegar landed a stun you were fucked unless you had a team to keep viegar away. Not saying he was strong because he wasn't. However his stun never really needed to be that powerful and the argument that most people are making just does not hold water because his stun has always been better against immobile champs.

EDIT: Viegar's balance also should never have revolved around such a strong skill. It was probably the most consistent stun at that range. Does he need improvement now? yes. However he shouldn't have that long range and consistent of a stun. It either needs some counter-play or needs less range

MarkedOfKane3 votes

"Its not a worthwhile post"

Yeah man, there isn't a single piece of fanart in your thread!

2pudge1cup2 votes

Often when they consult with the community first, it entails writing a "Let's talk about X" thread, responding only to a few hand picked responses that justify their initial reasoning, then go MIA for a few weeks then have a generic response like "I understand your concerns and they will be dealt with".

And I use consult very loosely.

Meanwhile you feel like you've wasted your time by posting concerns that aren't even remotely addressed.

Mawp2 votes

Well, they did say they'd further buff him if they need to (and they do, so let's hope that wasn't a false promise)

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

They said that with Heimerdinger . They kept their promise...THREE YEARS LATER!

Immortal Strife1 votes

At least Viegar still has his identity. I used to love mid Gragas now he's a jungler/bruiser :/

Audiomancy3 votes

Ah, yes. Veigar, the 100-25 burst mage with the Lux-esque skillshot. Identity preserved!

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