https://youtu.be/TcI0SGmAtXs?t=531
Honestly, she has a 68% ban rate and is perma picked where she's not banned, but you nerf Heimer's Q and Ult beam damage by half? He legit has a 1.66% pick rate with a 52% win rate, taking that the only players who pick him are legit one tricks. What is going on with the balance team? Please start firing some people already.
ShuyinTheX10 votesZoe was actually nerfed a lot harder than the on-paper patch notes leads you to believe. The delay on her Q>Q>R making it Q>R>wait>Q is pretty big because now she can't get that extra range until after she's fully out of her portal, which means for awhile a lot of players are going to 2nd Q too soon and it end up stopping short. In addition, she no longer gets Gunblade from minion drops which is pretty big too.
the weeaboo1 votesWait she doesn't get gunblade anymore? Fuck. That was one of the most fun things to do as Zoe. Early gunblade cheese.
Jinx Hunter9 votesBecause Zoe isn't an oppressive champ with no counter play when it comes to an entire class of champs; melees. She telegraphs everything she is going to do. If you get hit, it is no different then if you were playing against lux. You fucked up. The donger is a brain dead champ that slaps down turrets to play the game for him and literally only has to run around in circles to auto win any all in while near his turrets when he is against melee's, add with it he auto hard counters and wins against any melee if the donger even has half a braincell and makes it so they cant even farm and renders jungle ganks on him a bad idea because he does ridiculous amounts of damage without even having to do anything other then run around in a circle.
Zoe is balanced and fine, learn to dodge a damn skillshot and take advantage of the minion line. The donger is a terrible designed champion and should not exist. If they want champion like that, then the should take notes from Heros of the Storms's Gazlo.
Blåbæret4 votesI agree that donger shouldn't exist, but one cancer nerfed doesn't make up for every other cancer.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesThe boards tend to implode if you dare to suggest that a toplane champion might need to be nerfed, though. Unless said champion is one that came from mid.
r4ndomkill1 votesits a step in the right direction at least.
Sand Ähläm8 votesHeimer is a counter to the headlessly aggressive playstyle that this meta brings. Heimer is only a danger if you are stupid enough to dive head first in the middle if his turrets. If you leave him be and keep the lane passive makes him weaker over time. Heimer's team fights are not that great and he really can't push.
But people like to keep diving with no coordination resulting in a free kill for Heimer. Then they complain how op he is. This is just stupid.
TengenToppaGnar19 votesEhh, it depends on who he's laning against. A lot of champs can't remove his turrets fast enough, or if they try to(especially a number of melees) they'll get shit on for it.
EDIT: Basically, this nerf is from the Fun Police who think his Turret gameplay is anti-fun :X
Sand Ähläm1 votesThat's true too. I feel bad for all the Katarina's trying to go all in.
TengenToppaGnar8 votesActually, it might even be to fuck with "Support Heimerdingers" This is actually a serious issue, that I doubt Riot will openly say, but Support Heimer is pretty toxic Now before you pitchfork me, consider this, those Turrets are not under constant direct control. And they have a fairly large range, meaning... turrets when they aren't shooting the enemy champions, they're shooting the enemy minions, which is resulting in a raging ADC who is losing CS because of Heimer's Turrets, especially when a laser shot nukes an entire wave >:(
Sand Ähläm2 votesI tried heimendinger support Ended up being the ADC instead while my ADC was the support :) Now i know how to torture people
TengenToppaGnar1 votesThat's pretty much how it is, which is why Donger, no matter how stupid it sounds, if you're seriously going Support, take the fucking Relic Shield and upgrade as quickly as possible.
Stand Alone Wolf3 votesThat's true too. I feel bad for all the Katarina's trying to go all in.
I dont. Suffer.
Stand Alone Wolf7 votesEhh, it depends on who he's laning against. A lot of champs can't remove his turrets fast enough, or if they try to(especially a number of melees) they'll get shit on for it.
EDIT: Basically, this nerf is from the Fun Police who think his Turret gameplay is anti-fun :X
I want to feel bad, but I've had too many Heimer top games as a melee champ in the past. This feels like
Freevageeter1 votesYou wanna know what is anti fun? Laning against pantheon with a melee champion. At least with Heimer you have to walk into his turret range, whereas Pantheon literally zones you from any bit of cs known to man.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku6 votesseems like u talk bs about something u didn't experienced.
But people like to keep diving with no coordination resulting in a free kill for Heimer.
In wich world someone will dive an heimer ?? most of time, u will be pressured.
Sand Ähläm2 votesI played Heimendinger myself so I do know This is called "Impatience" I don't know why but it seems people do not have the patience to just sit and wait in the lane and farm. They seem to like to dive in as fast as possible and that results in a kill for Heimendinger. Heimendinger doesn't pressure you to dive him in any way. If the pressure you're talking about is "But I want to fight" then it's beyond Heimer already.
Velzard of Koz7 votesI played Heimendinger myself so I do know
That's his point. You talk bs about playing AGAINST Heimer.
I don't know why but it seems people do not have the patience to just sit and wait in the lane and farm.
We forgot that Heimer's turrets have enormous CD and such tremendous Mana cost that he has huuuuge windows of opportunity over time. AFKing because someone mains cancer isn't fun, neither is it fun If he keeps wave in the middle well enough that you literally cannot farm.
SweedishGunner8 votesJust because they're both annoying little shits doesn't mean they both have to be nerfed in tandem. Heimer was strong enough to warrant it.
I agree that Zoe still needs changes though.
DuskDaUmbreon7 votesBecause Heimerdinger is objectively oppressive against (almost) every melee champion, and is one of the least interactive champions in the game.
He's basically Malzahar, but if Malzahar didn't have to even press E again after the wave died. A boring, dead lane, that just feels like shit, and forces you to farm under turret, while he gets a lot of passive DoT. (Yes, even though his Q is technically an active, it's a drop and forget. There's no skill of any kind to it, no special quick activation, it's just press Q and forget about it until you have to move it again).
Zoe, however, was nerfed in a lot of different ways (Small nerfs to all 4 abilities). On top of that, she's just less oppressive for everyone. Melee? You can bait her E, and then engage. You can actually do something against her as almost everyone. (Not super immobile champions like Ashe or Mordekaiser, sure, but everyone has a counterpick).
Besides, only the flat damage on Heimer's beam was reduced. The 70% AP scaling is the same, the Liandry's 2-4% max hp burn is the same, the Rylai's slow that stops you from ever touching Heimer is the same. The only thing that was cut was the overly-high flat damage.
Fairyfleur5 votesinc downvotes for suggesting that Zoe isn't broken and her nerfs were actually meaningful
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesActually, technically I never said Zoe wasn't broken. I only said she was less oppressive than Heimerdinger (an objective fact - nobody is as oppressive as Heimer is), and had counterplay. Now, I do agree that she's not actually broken, although she definitely needs a bit of power shifting.
You can be broken and have counterplay. Said counterplay just tends to be weaker than it should be, or be rather small (such as a few select champions).
Fairyfleur1 votesI wish Zoe’s other spells could be better but if you nerf Q/E in exchange for buffing W she’ll feel worse to play.
If they want her to be less frustrating though they could increase the cooldown on E, lower the damage on Q, and in return increase the damage Q does to minions?
Anything to stop the boards from whining nonstop about her.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesMaybe push some more damage to her passive, rather than her W?
It would reward skill expression a bit more, since it's not the easiest ability to utilize fully.
r4ndomkill1 votesthose zoe nerfs hurt her usability alot making her harder to play and her q now has much less effective range,
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesHer Q still has the same effective range, I believe. You just have to be way faster, and better on your timing.
And the changes will most definitely weed out the bandwagon Zoe players from the actually good ones. I won't say it'll make her harder, but it'll make her more tricky. Which is a fine distinction.
Void Baboon RF6 votesYou think they're going to nerf a champ before they get to advertise them on lcs. Please. Riot's a business, remember, it's what all the fuccbois love to bring up. At the end of the day they're only in this to sell soccer ball skins.
the weeaboo3 votesLmao this thread is funny. You guys act like The Donger doesn't just completely fuck over every melee champ, and make for a completely uninteractive lane for every party involved.
The Donger sits in the middle of his turrets, and farms while keeping you pushed under turret so he can get free farm and just wail away at your tower and you. If you don't have a way to clear all three of his turrets in 2 seconds don't even bother trying to go on him or clear out his turrets. Meanwhile he can push as much as he wants because if the jungler (most of whom are melees) even attempts to gank that's just a double kill for The Donger as he runs around his turrets while the big turret three shots you. Get close to killing him and he'll melee stun you.
At least Zoe has a level of counter play. You all act like she's just a brain dead champ with a global E and infinite flashes. Wrong. Zoe does NOT do well into melee matches with gapclosers, she does NOT have that much mobility, and the mobility she does have relies on YOUR mistakes. Her CC is delayed meaning she CANNOT immediately deal with you if you get close. YES you're going to get one shotted by a Zoe if you're NOT standing behind minions, DONT have wards on the other side of walls, and stay in the perfect range where Zoe can just poke you for free with no threat to her.
Zoe is balanced you just need to dodge, keep wards up, stay behind minions, and play champs with gapclosers. Heimer is NOT balanced because he's a brain dead champ that lets turret AI play the game for him
Tacosrock2 votesHeimer’s nerfs were completely justified. He is a boring and unintuitive champion that was overloaded with damage. I mean seriously, does anyone actually enjoy going against him?
That being said, it’s only a matter of time before Zoe gets gutted, so don’t worry. It was just like Camille when she was released. Riot nerfed the little things in her kit, hoping that would fix her (which doesn’t work out most of the time) and then eventually just decides to dumpster them, because, surprise surprise, unnecessarily small nerfs like what they’re doing to Zoe now don’t do shit.
FirewaterDM1 votesHeimer has counterplay, yes you have to play kind of sit back and farm under turret/generally safely and you can outscale. If you're smart, even if melee you just fuck him up if you can play like a bitch until you get a Spectre's Cowl/Hexdrinker/some sort of MR.
The biggest thing that is annoying to see is people complaining about heimer but they will still rush damage instead of MR. IF you get MR, unless you fucked up and died 2-3 times before the first component then you care nothing for turrets unless you fuck up/get greedy.
IF you do this/kill turrets and make sure your jungle isn't sending yall to death (Protip if you can get heimer's flash he's easy bait pre level 6 - post 6 it's a matter of not being dumb/smiting the ult turret. Because a heimer w. no flash is usually still dead since he only has E for defense. And given the R nerf, the chances for 2 v 1's are far worse.
tl;dr: salt is salty, can't feel bad for people who can't play passive until they outscale/or rush MR when appropriate. Specifically Heimer still does mediocre to bad against a large number of melee champs, especially IF they rush MR instead of damage.
He's annoying but still hard to play unless you're someone who invested 100's of games into him as a champ.