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What do when you build just isn't doing enough

adjoth··1 votes·746 views

To start of I play primary mages, mage assassins to be specific and sometimes I run into situations where my damage starts to drop off. And full combos sometimes failing to kill a target due to how much health they have. And honestly I haven't had a whole lot of success when this happens. Granted some champions have the necessary damage to still pull of the role of an assassin such as Akali while other have a harder time with this. For example more recently I was playing Ahri against a team consisting of Darius (top), Diana (jg), Ezreal (mid), with Ashe (adc) and TahmKench (sup) in the bot lane. My build consist the following items item 3285, item 3165, item 3020, item 3151, item 3135, and i haven't started on the last item but was stuck in between item 3157, item 3089, item 3116 for the following reason.

  1. item 3157 , armor, cd, and the active -Deal the Ezreal whos full assault (not including ult) could take me down in 2 sec -Powerful active to help assassinate or save me
  2. item 3089 for the huge increase in damge on all targets
  3. item 3116 for the slow and increase burn damge from item 3151 and of course the damage.

Moving on the biggest threats where Ezreal and Diana due to there crazy burst damage and Diana been a natural counter. I could assassinate only two targets however when Ezreal and Ashe completed item 3137 then it was just Ashe. As for Diana she had to much health so she could survive the assault and burst me down instead if she landed everything and I couldn't escape. Darius had three items that gave him MR item 3111, item 3065, and item 3026 and a decent heath bar. TahmKench had two item 3065 and item 3111 but had a lot more health. So the only once I could assassinate was Ashe but TahmKench stuck to her and saved her with devour in most attempts.

Maybe have to change my strategy? And for those who are wondering we Won this game.

My Team: Teemo (top), Shaco (jg), Ahri (mid), with Caitlyn (adc) and Leona (sup) Enemy Team: Darius (top), Diana (jg), Ezreal (mid), with Ashe (adc) and TahmKench (sup)

-EDIT- There is another match up I'd like to mention Yasuo. I mentioned him quite a lot in some of the reply's but a basic rundown was I couldn't assassinate Yasuo due to his itemization had passive (only being able to take 1/4 out of his health from full). And because he chased me down like the devil during team fights it was impossible to go after the ADC and since Yasuo could still do a ton of damage so I couldn't simply ignore him. Split-pushing might have been the answer but even that was difficult since we didn't have the pressure to keep them from just disengaging to go after whoever was trying to split.

18 Comments

Shadòw1 votes

You need a Deathcap in your Build.

When Burst is not enough, make use of your kiting ability. Ahri is a kite/assassin mage.

adjoth1 votes

Gotta say, I have a love/hate relationship with how they made her a kite mage. (Removing the increased damage on charmed targets). And without item 3089 I could still assassinate Ezreal and Ashe. Thou Diana was to much for me and a item 3089 might have been the difference but I was a little more considered with living in team fights since we didn't have enough pressure to try and split (and I could still assassinate Ezreal or Ashe which I figured was good enough). Which is why I'm leaning towards the item 3116 or item 3157. Not to mention the increased % damage on every ability because of how item 3151 and item 3116 combo together. My personal way of ranking the three items is as following.

  1. item 3116
  2. item 3157 3.item 3089
Shadòw1 votes

Rabadons is core on every AP Mage.

You would have to give up an other item if you want item 3116 or item 3157.

But in your absolute late game build item 3089 and item 3135 are essential.

Stray Kat1 votes

Coming from someone who specifically plays things similar to what you described - I agree with the guy above me. You NEED a deathcap if you feel straight up bursting down those targets is going to be your main goal. It needs to be one of your first few items for the power spike it adds, and the lack of falling off. The power spike later isn't as relevant due to everyone having more defenses to face it.

adjoth1 votes

As mention I could still burst down the softer targets with exception of Diana, item 3089 might have been the item i need but am still unsure whether I'd be enough damage to kill her. Which is why i was stacking some health since she has an easier engage and is a natural counter. Otherwise the itemization was also to help fight off Darius and TahmKench. It's a well rounded build, but doesn't really specialize in anything, and since I could still assassinate Ashe and Ezreal I was OK with that. Interestingly enough I've had match up against a Yasuo where my full combo on an expecting Yasuo would only get him to 3/4 from full health. I was full build with roughly 750 AP and a void staff (everyone had a lot of MR items, Yasuo actually had 3 but could still out damage me item 3111, item 3156, and item 3139. The adc only had a item 3139 but because of how Yasuo stuck to me and our weak engaging I could never try and get to him without a huge flank route.)

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

a mage carry build should be somthing of this nature : item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 item 3285 item 3165 item 3157 if you have to have or item 3116 runes should be a set up flat magic pen marks , flat armor yellows if vs ad or scaling hp yellows with flat ap quints and for blues if vs ad scaling ap or vs a hard mage match up flat mr or if you need scaling sdr. if you go flat magic pen that is 8 magic pen, with 15 flat ap, 216 hp at lvl 18 and +28 ap at lvl 18 combined with 18-12-0 set up taking natural talent will be +15ap at lvl 18 with 7% magic pen, 2% more damage on all spells + 2.5% more damge if target is cc of any kind. then the keystone of deathfire touch gives you bonus dot based of ap. with these 1st 5 items that will give you 15+28=43ap+15=58ap from runes and masteries add 100 ap from item 3285 + 100 from item 3165 +70 from item 3157 +80 from item 3135 and +120 from item 3089 for a total of 470ap +58ap+(35% bonus from item 3089 ) 528+184.8 for a grand total of 712.8 ap rounded up to 713. if you go with item 3116 over item 3285 that would be 548+191.8(35% from item 3089 ) for a total of 740 ap.

adjoth1 votes

Something about your math seems off when calculating the total AP but ignoring that I like the other % damage increase for different enemies kill since your late game is stronger. The only issue I have with this build is the heavy reliance on item 3157 to survive Ezreal and Diana's burst. Thou it will increases your assassination capabilities so if you can make picks it might work a lot better. that said I could still assassinate targets so long as TahmKench couldn't pull them out before all the damage went out. I actually had a match up against Yasuo where I couldn't assassinate him with the build you have suggested. Due to the MR, Health, and his passive shield my full combo only did 1/4 of his health. I literally couldn't fight him with his shield up, which didn't help when all he did was pursue me during team fights. Which was the correct thing to do since I couldn't quite burst him down. And I was the biggest threat on the team gold/item wise. This is why I wish they'd add back the increased damage when charm lanes which was removed season 5 I think. Thou balance wise her laning phase might be to strong.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

{quoted}

Something about your math seems off when calculating the total AP but ignoring that I like the other % damage increase for different enemies kill since your late game is stronger. The only issue I have with this build is the heavy reliance on item 3157 to survive Ezreal and Diana's burst. Thou it will increases your assassination capabilities so if you can make picks it might work a lot better. that said I could still assassinate targets so long as TahmKench couldn't pull them out before all the damage went out. I actually had a match up against Yasuo where I couldn't assassinate him with the build you have suggested. Due to the MR, Health, and his passive shield my full combo only did 1/4 of his health. I literally couldn't fight him with his shield up, which didn't help when all he did was pursue me during team fights. Which was the correct thing to do since I couldn't quite burst him down. And I was the biggest threat on the team gold/item wise. This is why I wish they'd add back the increased damage when charm lanes which was removed season 5 I think. Thou balance wise her laning phase might be to strong.

what is off about my math? my math on the amout of ap you get is correct. now just cuz you have that much ap dont mean you abilities are 1 to 1 ratios. if you have an ability that only does .6 ap ratio then with the base damage of that ability + .6 of total ap plus magic pen - their mr would be the amount of damage that ability does . if they have shields as you stated then the shield will block part of the damage.

so 700 ap dont mean you will do 700 magic damage. it depends on ap ratios on abilities, magic pen, magic resist, shields they may have, and not calculating bonus damage from masteries. i was calculating flat ap from ap runes the flat ap from the items + the 35% bonus from death cap passive. and if you have natural talent which would give you 15 ap at lvl 18 .

so flat 15 ap from quints + 28 ap from scaling ap blues gives 43 ap + 15 ap at lvl 18 from natural talent would be 58 ap at lvl 18 with out items, with out magic pen or bonus enhancement masteries. the you can take the flat ap that all the items give and add to it. im giving you raw AP , that isnt contingent on magic pen, bonus damage from sorcery which is 2% bonus damage on abilities or the proc of thunderlords or any of that,or contingent on your enemies shields, mr , ect. now lets say you have an ability that does a base 200 damage +(100% ap) that ability would do 200+713 ap damage for a total of 913. but if it only does .5 or 50% of ap you would do 200+ 357 = 557 ap damage. every champ has different ratios on their abilities and different base damages on those abilities. but if you wanna take ahri's Q at max rank is 140 base damage +.35 ap on the 1st hit with 713 ap you are gonna do 140+(713x.35) which ends up being 140+249.55so a total of 389.55 magic damage and this is before magic pen/magic resist, shields , bonus procs from masteries. now on the come back if it hits the target it does the same amount of damage of 389.55 but it is true damage based on her ability.

Cyromo1 votes

I actually happen to main Ahri. It depends on the enemy teams build but I would goPersonally my build would be item 3020 item 3165 item 3285 item 3135 item 3089 and it actually depends but sometimes I actually go with item 3152 over item 3157 just because of how I might play. If I want to go all out assassin I'd take the Protobelt but if its only teamfights I'd go no rapadons and take Abyssal Scepter and take zhonyas.

adjoth1 votes

You know I always thought about getting item 3152 but the survivability item 3157 provides is hard to pass up. Especially if your the one that needs to engage to attempt an assassination. I also had to thing about the enemy team a lot when deciding my build. Health to fight off Diana and Ezreal's burst. And item 3151 with item 3165 to help negate Darius and TahmKench's healing and still be able to assassinate Ashe. At least that was my thinking. I wanted to not be a glass cannon and still be able to fight their front line, thou I do think being able to quickly take out one target is still important since I've have more teammates to help deal with the remaining 4. Which is why my build is sill high damage so I don't lose that assassination ability. I actually have had games with a build like you suggested where I could not assassinate. Yasuo MR and passive going all in i could only chunk him for 1/4 of his health and he stuck to me the rest of the game making it really hard to try and go after the ADC. That was an ugly game.

Cyromo1 votes

Ahris play style is really weird because you have to be somewhat close to enemy to use ult and try not to get caught out.

adjoth1 votes

I know, I hate that her ults range is so small. It's actually smaller than her basic range. Plus her Fox Fires targeting is a mess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DplkA0fXkis

DemainaNyx1 votes

I would get rid of Liandry's for zhonya's and rabadon, but I don't play Ahri so I may be wrong. I think Liandry would only apply on her charm, which is good, but she doesn't really proc it otherwise. Plus, you want to burst someone out with her, and Liandry is more a burn some health off type spell. Now, I can see why you'd get it to help burn off health on Darius and Tahm, but that's about it.

Your job is to kill Ashe preferably or Ezreal, hard with Tahm but still. Even just chunking them is good enough cause they will need to back off from team fights for fear of your orb just catching them or a stray Caitlyn headshot murdering them. One thing to do is go in and wait for Tahm to devour Ashe. That way, now Leona can get a good stun without Tahm saving Ashe again and hopefully you or Shaco can finish her off.

With your team, I'd tell Teemo or Shaco to splitpush honestly though. You have wave clear and Caitlyn with traps and Leona would be able to disengage well. If they split to deal with your splitpushers, now it's easier to get a pick on a prime target. Just my 2 cents.

adjoth1 votes

Sadly slip pushing was out. Teemo was pretty weak that game so Shaco was the only one that could split. The problem with this is without Shaco we didn't have enough pressure to keep the enemy team from simply disengaging from us and going after Shaco. item 3151 does only affect on her charm which is why I was thinking item 3116 since I'd make it applies a slow on every ability making it a lot more effective. Not to mention the AP and Health it provides.I agree with trying to take on Ezreal or Ashe but because of the danger and the slipperiness of Ezreal I was mostly targeting Ashe. Lucky we managed to win this game because Ashe was to far from TahmKench and was able to take her out before anything could be done, got a perfect Ace.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

item 3151 is best on champs that have abilites that slow champs such as Brand Elise Lissandra , Lissandra makes really good use of item 3151 due to the magic pen and the passive procs on all of her abilities. if you happen to build item 3116 which every one seems to do now item 3151 pairs nicely but you are stacking alot of hp and will lack some raw damage

adjoth1 votes

My thoughts behind item 3116 is the HP, AP and the slow allowing me to kite easier and keeping Darius off of me as well as survive Diana's all in. Personal I like it on some of the faster champions because of the added screw you to melee champions and to help escape champions with hard pursuit like Diana or champions that could gap close on me.

Wînter Fox1 votes

I'd go item 3116 item 3285 for maximum kiting as Ahri. She's much less bursty later on in the game, you have to wittle down their health and wait for the opportune time to go all in. Rylai's is amazing on Ahri, it's a core item in my opinion just because kiting is so essential to half her kit.

adjoth1 votes

There is another match up I'd like to mention Yasuo. I mentioned him quite a lot in some of the reply's but a basic rundown was I couldn't assassinate Yasuo due to his itemization had passive (only being able to take 1/4 out of his health from full). And because he chased me down like the devil during team fights it was impossible to go after the ADC and since Yasuo could still do a ton of damage so I couldn't simply ignore him. Split-pushing might have been the answer but even that was difficult since we didn't have the pressure to keep them from just disengaging to go after whoever was trying to split.

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