Mages need more defence items vs AD

adjoth·Nov 18, 2017·137 votes·5,455 views

It's always been an issue, however with the new runes system it's gotten out of control. Simple put AD champions have so many options with builds, including defensive items, making it so they can easily build with little to no sacrifice. Granted this mostly applies to the fighter/assassin classes but its simply insane to think you can have an assassin with more defensive stats than the tank and still have the damage to nuke target. No assassin should be able to take to much agro but take no damage. I've seen talons with 200 MR and 3K health, what mage can deal with that!? Therefor mages need the same build options. As far as defense there is mostly just health options, or a full defensive item, this needs to change.

228 Comments

NTrumpWeTrustNov 18, 201764 votes

Mages need better magic pen item variety Mages need better early defense against AD item choices Mages need more CDR options Mages need something else to build out of lost chapter

Mage itemization is so uninteresting and linear it's actually quite off putting

The Yetii RiderNov 18, 201713 votes

"Better magic pen" Penetration is not a carry stat. Penetration is an assassin stat. If you make more magic pen items, AP assassins will use them unless they're tuned specifically to push assassins away from them.

"Better defense against early AD" Mages are not tanks. More importantly, mages are not assassins. There does not need to be an equality in itemization just because they share a lane. Enchanters don't get health on their items just because wardens get health on theirs. Here's how this works: melee characters get more stats, ranged characters have a built in ability to kite. Also, mages have Stopwatch as an early defense against assassins.

"Mages need more CDR options" No you don't. If you have more options you will still build the option that is best for you every time. Juggernauts don't complain that they have to rush BC. Assassins don't bitch about Duskblade. Supports HAVE to build a gold item first. You are not entitled to a less "boring" item set.

"Mage itemization is so uninteresting" Fuck's sake. You are fighting a giant rock, a sexy fox succubus, a child who summons a great flaming bear, and dragons. Take your mind off the ball of stats you bought and find fun in the GAME! Shit, you made a sick play, flashing behind that Lee Sin and Scatter the Weaking him back into your team! But you're just so BORED because you built Morellonomicon first, again.

If you're not having fun, it's not your items' fault. I build nearly the same build every game, it never crosses my mind, and I have a blast. You probably just need to take a break from League

iDarkWindNov 18, 20178 votes

Great answear. I don't get it why people want to make mages tankier, dealing more damage and having more CDR and less resource problems. Isn't like last season meta picks weren't mages afterall (Orianna & Syndra for example).

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 201720 votes

Because we don't get the same damage for building glass like we used to. So we should get something back for it, and in this case its tankiness.

The Yetii RiderNov 18, 20174 votes

No, you don't need to get anything back for it. Your role has changed, it doesn't need to be compensated for losing damage if you simply dealt too much damage before.

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 201719 votes

We didn't want our role to change. We're not playing champions like Ahri, Brand, Karthus, Veigar, Viktor, etc to be utility bots with constant 40% like Orianna.

And apparently actually doing our job as a Burst champion is too much damage, in not even an unfair way like old Assassins.

The Yetii RiderNov 18, 20172 votes

Assassins had their role changed and now they're all skirmishers or divers with significantly less up front burst. They didn't get compensation for that. If you don't like it, stop playing the game.

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 201711 votes

No, they're still Assassins. They're still bursting people especially since new Runes have dropped.

ThryaleNov 18, 20178 votes

yeah, even when I manage to get 1k+ AP with veig, my damage isn't nearly as impactful as it used to be what with how easy it is for my opponents to itemize defenses against me with little sacrifice to their dmg output.

I mean, yes, I can still delete ppl that build glass cannon if they're stupid and walk into my stun (assuming nothing body blocks my Q of course)

iDarkWindNov 19, 20172 votes

What? You don't? Then the youtube videos of the famous youtubers of LoL content must be old, because so far I've seen Diana one shotting, Katarina performing extremly well, Syndra being Syndra, Azir plays that change the team fight, Ekko doing extremly high burst with his basic combo from Saint's video, ... ?? http://euw.op.gg/champion/statistics That thing there even shows you that mages are performing overall better than Assasins. Whatever.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20173 votes

Compared to when Deathcap was cheaper, we had more AP on items, ranged champions didn't get MR/level, and DFG was still alive? Yea, the comparison is nothing.

The matter isn't about Mages doing better than Assassins, it's that Mages have been moved from a damage carry role to one that revolves around 40% CDR utility bots.

ValyrianBladeNov 19, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Great answear. I don't get it why people want to make mages tankier, dealing more damage and having more CDR and less resource problems. Isn't like last season meta picks weren't mages afterall (Orianna & Syndra for example).

I don't think anyone actually WANTS to give mages these itemization choices.

What people WANT is for AD mid laners (read: Zed, Talon, and Yasuo) to NOT have the ridiculousness that is Hexdrinker. Maw is pretty broken too, but it's acceptable since it's a full item - so it's much more on par with Zhonya's (although it's still drastically stronger in extended trades). People act like stopwatch gives mages something on par with hexdrinker - it gives no stats. You're wasting 600g on something to get no stats, that's not going to help you in a matchup where you're already out-stat'ed due to melee base stats being higher (and the whole "your range is the advantage" thing is bogus after level 2, as these guys are all hyper-mobile). You don't beat Zed/Yasuo/Talon by building defense and barely surviving their all-in every 45 seconds to recall and let them roam for kills on your allies instead. You beat them by building your normal damage and threatening to kill them instead if they go for it. Which is total bogus when all they need is a hexdrinker to guarantee you can't kill them back unless you CC them under your tower when they engage on you.

No, a 1300g item giving AD mids immunity to dying in a 1v1 all-in against AP mids is what people want to get rid of. It auto-wins them the matchup far too early, not giving mages anywhere near enough time to use their advantage to get lasting pressure in the matchup. If hexdrinker gave only its stats (and not the passive shield) OR didn't give MR, either would make it slightly comparable to stopwatch and not beget as much complaints. Drop the price to 900g and remove the MR and the mantle from the build path and you wouldn't have complaints.

Then, if hexdrinker wasn't enough, these champions still get options: Edge of Night, Mercurial Scimitar, enough pen items that Mercury Treads are an option (whereas mages are heavily forced in to Sorcery boots to deal real damage), the ability to instead stack health (via Black Cleaver and a few other options) against mages who don't deal sustained damage but just have burst, etc...

In response mages get? Zhonya's and a bunch of health items. If you don't care about Zhonya's active (many mages can't use it for much, it basically just extends their life by 2.5 seconds then they die as soon as they come out of stasis if they're not defended by their tower or an allied champion, versus Hexdrinker which legitimately saves the AD champion by just letting them survive the fight as they run away) you're out of luck for another armor option - there isn't one.

So yea, since Riot has shown they clearly have no intention of ever removing Hexdrinker and allowing mages to actually punish an AD mid that burns their mobility engaging, misses everything, then gets hit by the mages CC and full combo (which would = dead for any other damage dealer) - mages have instead resorted to asking for the same sort of tools. Give mages more offensive items that provide armor in addition to the early stats they actually want (as Zhonya's has TERRIBLE stats for a first item - you want mana and CDR early, not raw AP) and see how quickly the AD mids start whining about how impossible their lanes are.

Would the above be balanced? Of course not - AD mids are balanced around hexdrinker and mages not having an equivalent. Most mages think that's a poor choice though, they'd prefer to have the POTENTIAL to outplay the AD mid and actually get themselves going rather than just wait to out-teamfight them... Likewise the AD mids would probably prefer to have better teamfight options against teams that know how to deal with them, rather than depend on snowballing against enemies that underestimate them or losing otherwise.

iDarkWindNov 19, 20172 votes

Ok, I understood what you were trying to say, but if that's the case the community should be asking for Hexdrinker nerfs. Mages want to stand a chance against assasins? Ok, let's be clear. Assasins perform extremly well against any kind of squishy targets. The moment that a fight between an Assasin and a Mage has 50/50 chance for each one it's when you realise something is wrong. At the moment mage do still can outplay AD mid laners, how does it happens? By not allowing them to kill you and managing your wave. Think on this way: Why would you ever pick an Assasin if a Mage could do the same in lane and be way more useful in the team fights? People have to realize the weak point of the Assasin it's that he has to snowball in order to be able to carry, otherwise he won't be usefull at all, because if the enemy team in the team fights just peel for the ADC and protect him from the Assasin dive, it's basicly a 4vs5 team fight for the Assasin's team. In my honest opinion, the problem aren't the Assasins at all. It's just that the game ends to quickly due to the fact that it's easy to take objectives like turrents. They melt so easy. And what happens next? If they take turrents so much easy, the game ends faster, wich means Assasins will be strong the hole game because there wasn't a mid - late game at all for them to fall off. This is why I think that Assasins are in a good spot right now, not because of the fact everyone lost their 9 armor (wich is stupid, because everyone lost 12 MR as well, plus Assasin got some AD on their base stats, yes, but mages now have a lot of more AP at lv1 from the runes aswell, so I don't get it).

But you know? This comment will be downvoted and there won't be discuss at all, because boards are always right: Buff mages nerf everyone else. Funny they don't even represent 5% of the community.

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 20176 votes

Enchanters don't get health on their items just because wardens get health on theirs.

Enchanters kinda do tho. item 2049 item 3107

The Yetii RiderNov 18, 20173 votes

When Redemption was first released, maybe I'd think you had a point, but it has lost 200 health since then. The health is not the point of the item.

As for SS, SS originally had no stats. It was given health because that's the only stat every support wants and Riot wanted to make Ruby SS a more slot efficient item. Honestly, I hope SS is just removed from the game this season.

AzadetheNov 18, 20171 votes

Technically, atm, mages are tanks. Frozen Heart and Iceborn Gauntlet make it so, and give up to 52/55 AP each.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20176 votes

Implying you're taking transcendence to make a cheese build.

AzadetheNov 19, 20171 votes

Cheese? it's pound for pound the largest stat boosting rune in the game atm. I usually have + 100-120 AP on it by the end of an Evelynn build, in addition to Gathering Storm and Eyeball collection. I usually pass 200 AP in Runes ( 25+ 100 + 48 + 31 = 204 AP in just runes). And none of the items I get are bad for the champ I'm using..... Nashors, Lich, Iceborne, Morellonomicon, Death Cap and potentially boots of Lucidity is not a Cheese build on an Eve.

TormentulaNov 19, 20174 votes

{quoted} I'm using..... Nashors, Lich, Iceborne, Morellonomicon, Death Cap and potentially boots of Lucidity is not a Cheese build on an Eve.

Its not a viable one either.

Lmao if I saw that build I'd just build MR, you lost all your magic pen just for some extra AP, without pen you still tickle unless you picked up 10 kills in the first 8 minutes (and even then you still fall off).

Transcendence is good on stuff that naturally caps above the CDR limit but taking it and forcefully trying to make it work by altering builds on champions that simply don't benefit from it is just wasteful.

ChermorgNov 18, 201721 votes

item 3157 item 3003 item 3102 item 3030 item 3151 item 3025 item 3027

Armor, Health/shield, MR/health, health, health, armor/CC, health

These are just common mage items too. I think there's room for another one or two, but the field of defensive "mage items" is already kinda full imo. Like the other person said though, I definitely think that there could be some more MP variety, and another build path using lost chapter.

AaravosNov 18, 201718 votes

Then item 3156 item 3812 item 3071 item 3026 item 3139 item 3022 item 3814 item 3065 item 3046

TyrekGoldenspearNov 18, 20176 votes

See. The issue here is that there are more AD types of champs then there are AP types of champs.

Listing every single AD defense item will skew things to favor them becuase there are simply more of them to account for.

Just as by listing every mage defense item will get explanations on how somr are situational or not for every mage, so should we do this for AD defense items.

Juggernauts aren't exactly gonna be rushing Mercurial or Nights Edge.

Skirmishers won't really want FM or Nights Edge.

Assassins really aren't looking for Frozen Heart or Phantom Dancer.

This is bare bones but remember that ADCs are an AD type as well.

Just something to keep in mind

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 20176 votes

But every AD does have access to those items. Some people build Lethality Garen , or Mercurial on Darius.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 18, 20173 votes

Well, by that logic every AP has access to AP items.

But I feel that you mean that while every AD defense item is usable by an AD champ, it should count.

I personally disagree, and feel that niches of items and intended classes should be taken into account.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20172 votes

The only items that are essentially class/role locked are Support gold gen items. I like building Phantom Dancer on Garen. Are you going to try and tell me that I didn't build a defensive item, or Garen isn't a Juggernaut because I bought a crit item, or that I'm not allowed to build the item on Garen because it's not for his class?

ADs can buy whatever defensive AD items they see fit, it's just usually not optimal like buying Sterak's after the nerfs to it and preventing stacking with Maw. (Before Sterak's becoming melee only of course)

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 201737 votes

Zhonya's is a shadow of its former self, Archangel's is bad on many APs (you wouldn't believe the flame I get for building it on Ahri), BV doesn't help vs AD in most cases, GLP is trash unless you're Swain or Aurelion Sol, Liandry's is K but the HP isn't stellar, LOL ICEBORN ON A MAGE good one, RoA isn't for every Mage.

AzadetheNov 18, 20171 votes

Zhonyas is now a 90 AP item. Archangel's is the cheapest AP in the game atm, and charges three times as fast as it used to. it's not a bad pick at all.

Champion SkinNov 19, 20173 votes

Archangel's is the cheapest AP in the game atm, and charges three times as fast as it used to.

item 3070 / item 3003 went from 2 charges every 8 seconds to 3 charges every 12 seconds Which results in the same MAX stacking speed but it is easier to stack

Zhonyas is now a 90 AP item.

Zhonyas only gives 70 AP but also 10% CDR.... it only gives 90 AP if you already have 40% CDR AND Transcendence

GayFluffyUnicornNov 18, 20173 votes

Zhonyas still has the best active in the game and you pretty much buy it for the active and i'm very sad too many people are too bad to use the active in a good way but that doesn't make the item bad. Liandry is still an overpowered item no matter how hard you try to make it sound bad when it's second buy in most games for most mages in high elo. Roa is for every mage you simply decide to buy morellos for obvious benefits over it. PoE regularly goes RoA on orianna instead of morellos. Some Azirs still go for roa over morellos even TF players go for roa. It is simply your decision to not buy it. You want instant AP, Mana and CDR for a powerspike but don't complain that you get blown up then. You can easily opt into RoA to survive. How does BV not help vs AD? The spellshield is powerful, no instant zed ult, camille stun/ult, BV is a good item. Hextech items should get additional work on them to make them accessible to more mages.

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 20173 votes

Zhonya's just can't be an item you disregard stats for. League is a stats based game. Yes, the active is strong, yes I know they made the stats shitty on it because the active is good. But I'd rather buy Stopwatches than fully upgrade into Zhonya's if I could buy more than one.

Liandry's is a very good item, it's just the defensive part of it isn't great.

Yea, let me buy that sick RoA on Ahri, or Fizz. RoA is an item for champions who want to scale and don't mind being weaker early. Some champions can't afford that wait.

Because ADs will still just dick on you with autos. Yea, it's nice when a Jayce is throwing EQs at you but Banshee's is not the premier defensive item against ADs because of how easy it is to take off you.

ChermorgNov 18, 20174 votes

Mages have an item that lets them spend 2 seconds waiting for cooldowns to come back, AD champions don't (well, unless they die, and that item has twice the cooldown of the mage one).

Mages are free to use one of their item slots to build a ZZ portal, a Gargoyle Stoneplate, or another dual armor/MR item - then build glass cannon with the rest of their build.

You cannot have the best of both worlds. You do not get high damage and high AP. If you want to survive longer in fights, you have two options - stay more in the back with vision, or sacrifice some of your damage.

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 201710 votes

AD Champions have access to 1 Zhonya's now before they upgrade it to GA.

ChermorgNov 18, 20174 votes

A one time use item that is only available once now, and even then most people do not buy that until 20+ minutes in anyway, compared to one that is multi-use and is a second item for any mage wanting the armor and sometimes even a first item.

NineTailedMysticNov 18, 201711 votes

Yes, but now ADs have their long desired Zhonya's effect. Yes, it's only once but now maybe they'll see it's not as great as they think.

NyarlathοtepNov 18, 20176 votes

Mages have an item that lets them spend 2 seconds waiting for cooldowns to come back, AD champions don't

1st of all its 2.5. 2nd of all, while that mage is in stasis, their enemies also get their cds back, just saying.

Mages are free to use one of their item slots to build a ZZ portal, a Gargoyle Stoneplate, or another dual armor/MR item - then build glass cannon with the rest of their build

WAIT WAIT, are you for real now? Lets start buy the obvious. The only mages that would want that much tankness would be battlemages ( swain, ryze etc). Then again zz portal is very VERY niche, gargoyle destroys the purpose of mages ( the primary role of mages is to deal dmg and since gargoyle lowers the dmg you should know that it is bad ) and the only dual armour mr items are portal, solari and gargoyle. Portal very niche-borderline troll, you cant expect a mage to build a supp/tank item, and gargoyle lowers dps.

You do not get high damage and high AP

Hexdrinker would love to have a word with you.

ChermorgNov 18, 20173 votes

I obviously need more coffee. That last part meant to say

You do not get high damage and high armor/MR/tankiness/sustain.

Apologies for that flubup.

I have no strong opinion either way, if anything I side slightly towards mage itemization being okay right now - but I'm just pointing out that people's refusal to build different items does not mean they don't exist.

In a teamfight, the enemy will be using their spells when they're up on others - even if the mage is in stasis. Rarely do they save their spells for someone in the heat of a teamfight.

Also I'd say I have to disagree that mages' primary purpose is to deal damage - I think it's to deal consistent damage over the entire course of a teamfight. The assassin role's job is to do quick bursty damage - the mage's role is to do consistent magic damage over the course of a fight. The tradeoff is less burst for more overall damage.

NyarlathοtepNov 18, 20173 votes

but I'm just pointing out that people's refusal to build different items does not mean they don't exist.

The problem is that they simple dont do. I cant built portal/solari/gargoyle just because i need more armour.

Also I'd say I have to disagree that mages' primary purpose is to deal damage - I think it's to deal consistent damage over the entire course of a teamfight

im pretty sure they are the same

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20175 votes

Fuck burst mages then, am i right?

Sewer SideNov 19, 20175 votes

Why do mages believe they need many defensive items in the first place?

Most mages start at 700 range abilities up to 1100 range - easily outranging all auto attacks and melee gapclosers that aren't Zac/Malphite.

This is not accounting for the fact that mages also have reliable CC and/or mobility.

A well played mage is already a frustrating experience for all melee classes, why should they be durable on top of slippery when the gap gets closed?

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20173 votes

Assassins are why.

Sewer SideNov 19, 20171 votes

They're supposed to kinda kill you though. Their counter play isn't itemization - it's teamwork, through grouping and warding + CCing them.

Besides, it goes right to my point - assassins are inherently melee. If they get in melee range of you, that is their domain. As a mage (inherently ranged) it's your mission to not allow that and you have tools to do so. You should not have a secondary fail safe (ie doing significant damage while being durable) if you misplayed poorly.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20172 votes

That's why Assassins were reworked. Their counterplay was macro with very little room for micro.

Also what tools? What do you do when they flash gap close on you? Nothing. You die.

Bank of VeggieNov 19, 20174 votes

If you know how to position in the slightest Zhonya's and Tabis are way more than enough to keep you alive.

If you're alone in a sidelane againt an assassin when you're not a splitpusher and you're complaining they can kill you, get real and learn the game.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20173 votes

Tabis on a Mage, giving up 18 Flat Pen making you worthless outside of CC https://i.imgur.com/unfwgvo.png?noredirect

Bank of VeggieNov 19, 20173 votes

Who would have thought you have to give up damage for defensive items.

That's why there are 2 solutions.

You either give up some damage to take less damage, or you get good at the game and don't take damage in the first place.

~also, 18 magic pen makes you lose roughly 13% damage against a 30 MR squishy (which you will never be against because everyone has scaling mr and you don't start with sorc shoes)

Don't exaggerate like a lot of mages don't opt out of them frequently or don't even have them in their build path.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20174 votes

The only Mage that I have seen frequently not take Sorcerer's Shoes is Azir. And Cass but she's special.

So, I buy Tabis on Ahri. Sure, I'm less likely to die, but now I don't do any worthwhile damage. The only thing I am good for is Charm and less than 280 + .7 AP poke every 7 to 4.4 seconds. Sure, I'm not feeding, but I'm not worth killing anymore anyways.

Oh, and fuck your "get good" bullshit. It doesn't matter how good you are, you cannot avoid every instance of damage, every all in, dodge every skillshot, avoid every gank. It is literally not possible.

Bank of VeggieNov 19, 20173 votes

You can't avoid every instance of damage, but you sure can avoid enough of it to not die.

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20172 votes

Can't avoid auto attacks.