Proposed changes to ADC class items

Aptest··2 votes·590 views

Perceived problems:

Damage output VS tanks insufficient. Damage output VS squishes too high.

**why is this a problem? **

ADC are required to be able to kill tanks in late game. By attaining this they are also capable of killing everything else late game. This creates a situation where late game ADCs kill everything.

The capacity of the ADC to kill everything necessitates that ADCs are vulnerable to assassination / zerging / other. I.E. ADC can not survive unassisted against other players. This makes developing the ADC for the late game a team objective.

This is bad because agency is removed both from ADC player and also all the players dedicated to his defense. Assassins and divers lack target selection past a certain point in the game.

Concept of solution

nerfing the ability of the ADC to "kill everything" in the late game will make other characters more strong than ADC against squishies. Will also prevent a situation that the enemy team's "tank buster" 2 shots you.

This makes ADC less important to develop and therefore less a team objective. Which allows ADC to gain strength elsewhere and become more independent.

proposed method

Re-work Crit. Crit will become %maxHP damage.

current mechanics of crit as flat damage multiplier cause damage profile of crit characters to be oppressive VS squishies. To reach TTK of 5 seconds VS tank (6000-8000) results in TTK of 2 seconds VS squishies (2000-2500 EHP). This because crit damage is same between tank and squish.

If crit damage is lower VS squish, because it is tied to one of the tank's stats (his HP or armor) than can decrease TTK vs tank while not decreasing TTK vs squish by same amount. this makes ADC less oppressive to squish.

TL;DR: Crit should be %maxHP damage with AD scaling.

9 Comments

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted} Damage output VS tanks insufficient.

no.

the job of an adc is to counter tanks with sustained damage. over extended fights theyre supposed to have the upper hand and eventually wear them down and kill them. as opposed to more burst oriented classes like most mages and assassins, who would over long duels either lose a battle of attrition, or take too long to take a tank down to the point where the tanks team can react and join the fight. (there are exceptions like Brand )

adc are not supposed to burst the fuck out of tanks. i think this is the point people dont seem to understand. adc countering tanks doesnt mean theyre supposed to take them down as if they were made out of paper machet.

this is why i think Vayne already oversteps the line as a marksmen with her unconditional tank shredding ability. vayne is as unfair to a tank, as pre rework Talon was unfair to adc. even counters need their limits.

there was no counterplay for an adc against talon. he would just point and click gapclose on the adc and blow him up. guess what vayne does. she point and click auto attacks on a tank, disengages with her e and blows him up while just plain ingnoring his resistances. there is no decision making or gameplay mechanic involved to silver bolts, like there is for even other champions with % health true damage. she just does what she does anyways. auto attack the target infront of her.

here is a more reasonable change to adc itemization: make adc damage in a fight start low and ramp up over time, the longer they keep auto attacking. instead of critting down everything in their path.

LightSword1 votes

Sooo.... Make fervor of battle a more reliable keystone?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=SNU ScarraCCouch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UnxqVKn7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-01T13:08:08.637+0000)

Sooo.... Make fervor of battle a more reliable keystone?

fervor is already reliable enough.

i say make their whole itemization work like fervor, so their damage in a fight starts out low, and takes at least 5 seconds to ramp up to a point where they become a serious threat.

this would solve the problem of marksmen being able to go into a fight and open with 2 infinity edge crits and just outburst mages and assassins.

at the same time it would keep their identity as counters to tanky targets. because fights against tanky targets are usually drawn out enough that their damage would ramp up reliably to a point where theyd eventually wear them down and kill them.

Aptest1 votes

instead of critting down everything in their path.

What I am offering solves exactly this. ADCs will not "crit down everything in their path" because crit will be effective mostly VS tanks. Whereas non-tanks will take mostly the non-crit part of the damage.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

What I am offering solves exactly this. ADCs will not "crit down everything in their path" because crit will be effective mostly VS tanks. Whereas non-tanks will take mostly the non-crit part of the damage.

% hp damage on items is much harder to balance. pretty much as difficult as crit is to balance. there is a plethora of problems that comes with it.

marksmen should deal less upfront burst against other squishies. but we also dont want them to entirely negate tanks and bruisers. these champions still need to be tanky to some degree, even against marksmen.

what youre suggesting pretty much invalidates health as a defensive stat. since bonus armor is already worth very little in this game thanks to the large amount of bonus armor pen on last whisper items, combined with % health damage to every adc would just entirely negate the value of any defense that isnt heals and shields.

% health damage shouldnt be something available in every game on a regular basis. right now its only limited available in champion kits, or a significant investment and small amounts on items. overloading the game with it would break entire classes of champions.

i think design wise it would be easier to balance ramping up flat damage on marksmen, than it would be to keep % hp damage in a spot where it doesnt overly synegize with existing % hp damage in some marksmen kits, and make defense feel like a waste in general.

Aptest1 votes

% hp damage on items is much harder to balance. pretty much as difficult as crit is to balance. there is a plethora of problems that comes with it.

What are the problems with %hp damage, that are difficult to balance?

The problem with "flat" damage as we have now is this: A tank at full build has 6000-8000 EHP. Let's assume 10 seconds is a reasonable time to break a tank. You need to deal 800 damage per second in that case. This kind of damage breaks a squishie in 2.5 seconds. we would like a squishie to have around 3-4 seconds because that gives the squishie some room to make plays and "play the game".

however if we reduce the carry's damage to where a squishie breaks in 3-4 seconds, the tank only brakes after 15 seconds which basically makes it overpowered.

the solution is to have the damage depend on the tank's stats. which to some extent invalidates them.

what youre suggesting pretty much invalidates health as a defensive stat.

ADCs would not ONLY deal %hp damage. they will also deal a respectable amount of flat damage. right now ADC's deal around half their damage as "crit" whereas the other half is "not crit" and that ratio can end up being the same.

health and armor will not be completely irrelevant against an ADC... but they will be less effective VS an ADC than VS a mage or an assassin. which will position tanks as characters that are more effective VS assassins and mages and less effective VS marksmen - as opposed to the "everybody dog-piles the marksman" situation we have today.

this will also give ADCs a clearer purpose as "killers of tanks" as opposed to "crits everything", and allows us to preserve the triangle of: DPS < burst < Tank < DPS.

overloading the game with it would break entire classes of champions.

I don't think so. First they will still have their HP function against half the marksman's damage, and secondly they have armor. The specific amount of damage can be tuned to be the same as today, with softer targets being the prime beneficiaries.

the answer to the other team having developed their ADC well should be "get a triforce", not "get a sunfire cape"... which I also believe is going to be more fun for everyone.

i think design wise it would be easier to balance ramping up flat damage on marksmen

If the ramp up depends on keeping the same target, you are locking too much of the carry's damage on not being rewarded for quick thinking inside a fight. I.E you are removing some of the player's agency for that power and you are not giving agency elsewhere to compensate.

If the ramp up does not depend on keeping the same target, we have a situation where helping your team mate becomes more dangerous as time goes by because the enemy marksman can switch targets to you with a fully charged lazer. but we kinda want tanks to feel good about getting focused no?

I see that both options have gameplay associated with them so that is at least a positive and you can put them both up as selectable alternative keystones. however i am not sure these gameplay options are without problems.

LightSword1 votes

Pretty much what you are suggesting here is that more adc items look like item 3124. Obviously, that being said, they wouldn't have the same stats, and would each probably have something to make them unique.

The problem I have is this: It takes so long for most adc's to be relevant in the game. Some adc's are particularly good in the early game (particularly as bullies), but then (for any such champ that isn't Caitlyn ), becomes relatively weak late game. What you're suggesting is when they reach that point, they shouldn't be able to immediately deal the damage they've been waiting who knows how long to do.

Alternatively, if this were implemented, we might go back to adc's building like assassins so that they can have their more immediate damage back (I don't want a meta where Jhin MissFortune Lucian Varus are the only viable adc's) and nerfing those items would make ad assassins less useful than some claim they already are (I'm still deciding my opinion on how strong they are).

I feel like the only ways to make these viable are either 1) make them stack quickly enough that you reach max damage relatively quickly, or 2) make them so strong after they hit the max that teamfights become adc wars, which wouldn't solve any of the issues presented (except they wouldn't have the initial burst).

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying or giving an unrealistic scenario for what would happen, but I honestly don't want to bring back the season 6 armor pen meta (or one where adc's determine the outcome of a fight singlehandedly).

Leeerzeichen2 votes

Lifesteal should get a rework too because currently, it's just way too strong if ahead and to weak if behind. Imo life steal should be removed replaced with fioras old passive (a stacking hp regen buff on autos) -> no burst heal for 1/2 of an adcs hp bar per auto, but a reliable heal during longer fights.

Lovelle1 votes

I'm all for replacing crit itemization, but %max hp damage isn't the solution.

Items like item 3036 are a nice start toward replacing crit.

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