Some thoughts on the balance between mages and assassins during laning phase

Aptest··3 votes·395 views

I wanted to share a thought about laning phase and "fun", from a support player's perspective, and present an idea to the forum.

Let's suppose bottom lane is constantly getting ganked. this means that aside from my own lane's dynamics, I am either responding to a gank initiated by my allies - mid or jungle - or defending my lane from a gank. Both of those actions are initiated not by me or my direct opponent, but by the other roles on our team.

On the other hand if I gank mid lane, I sometimes tag along with the jungler - which is a major investment of time - or i go myself. In both cases I am heavily invested in making the action happen.

This means that my agency on the game is greater when I gank other lanes, than when my own lane is getting ganked. When I say agency i do not mean how much impact I have over the end result, but rather how much of the decisions that led up to the result I was making as opposed to responding to.

From a game agency perspective, it is then better FOR ME that I am able to gank mid lane and enemy jungle. That enemy mid lane and jungle don't have absurd mobility to easy-mode escape any gank attempt and UN-conditional damage with which they can easy mode take me out if I gank them.

[I do not mean better for the game as a whole. I mean for greedily for me as a support player]

On the other hand the more mobility, outplay potential and un-conditional burst the mid lane and jungle have, me as the support player experience a decrease in player agency, during the laning phase - agency that goes to the mid and jungler of both teams.

From that, my interest as a support player IN THE EARLY GAME is that mid lane is populated by relatively less mobile champions than mine who can't just kill me if i get in range (hi annie). I.E. my selfish interest is that mid range and maybe also long range mages can not only survive but win in lane against assassins.

thoughts?

11 Comments

Packun Flower2 votes

Or we could just do what needs to be done and not beat around the bush.

Rengar Katarina Talon all need nerfs Shaco Akali All need buffs

Syndra needs nerfs Taliyah needs buffs Annie Needs ALOT of bug fixes.

Vayne Twitch MissFortune needs nerfs

item 3147 needs to be changed to Melee only item 3075 needs to not be garbage item 3025 needs to stop being abused by Ezreal

Aptest1 votes

These are some brave thoughts am i don't know if to support them or not.

Statistically speaking people find assassins a lot of fun to play, they are the most heavily picked group of characters in low elos where people don't know any better and in high elo a lot of people are just waiting for the reign of viktor to end so they can jump on the fizz / leblanc wagon.

people WANT to play these champions and they WANT them to be strong and, I think, for much the same reasons as I've discussed above: more stuff happens because of you, less stuff happens to you.

OTOH i have to recognize that what makes these champions fun is their absurd advantage in mobility which is translated into being in control of situation. I.E. the other guy who is not on one of these champions, is not in control.

Add to it that assassins are "supposed to" remove opposing players from the field, we end up with a situation where the other guy can't play and cant do anything about not being able to play because he doesn't have enough control (over the assassin player).

If all that makes it apparent that I do not have a good answer, than you've read correctly.

ACENOX1 votes

talon doesn't need nerfs katarina doesn't need nerfs

miss fortune doesn't need nerfs

SGT Dingle Berry1 votes

{quoted}

talon doesn't need nerfs katarina doesn't need nerfs

miss fortune doesn't need nerfs

Those were my thoughts too, like right on the button.

Zach Sandwhich1 votes

{quoted}

Or we could just do what needs to be done and not beat around the bush.

Rengar Katarina Talon all need nerfs Shaco Akali All need buffs

Syndra needs nerfs Taliyah needs buffs Annie Needs ALOT of bug fixes.

Vayne Twitch MissFortune needs nerfs

item 3147 needs to be changed to Melee only item 3075 needs to not be garbage item 3025 needs to stop being abused by Ezreal

Replace Kat with Kha'Zix and I agree wholeheartedly.

Ralanr1 votes

Why does Talon need nerfs? He's got clear windows of weakness and needs a full combo to kill someone unless they are low.

Calabok1 votes

{quoted}

Why does Talon need nerfs? He's got clear windows of weakness and needs a full combo to kill someone unless they are low.

bull crap. he just jumps over everything instantly

Ralanr1 votes

Believe me man, I've been caught mid jump more than I'd like. He's not untargettable when doing it.

Cocho1 votes

You can't just walk up to midlane and expect a gank to work. It needs to be setup somehow or the enemy player over extending. Do they have flash? Ult? Most of these assassins dont have great escapes. Just like zed and lb now.

I can imagine being Katarina or Annie and watching a lulu come too close alone, without the enemy midlaner in position. We're just going to take the kill and go on.

But if the enemy syndra, ahri, anivia, annie, stuns me, and I'm any midlaner without cleanse , then you walk out of the bush as the supp and chain CC me, then I'm screwed.

This is kinda funny but theres another post that is basically the opposite of this.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ERz37OPX-why-do-we-need-assassins-with-these-ridiculous-mages

Even if the assassin has an escape, try ganking a viktor, anivia, or syndra where they litterally one shot the entire wave, then walk back to their turret.

Aptest1 votes

Even if the assassin has an escape, try ganking a viktor, anivia, or syndra where they litterally one shot the entire wave, then walk back to their turret.

The other post claims that mages are more safe than assassins in lane. I disagree with this statement. Reality tells us that mages in mid lane get ganked successfully. The junglers a lot of time choose to focus them down, burn their flashes and dive them.

We do not see the same pattern with assassins. Specifically with some mid lane assassins (lb, zed, fizz, maybe now also talon) what we see is the jungler deciding that ganking mid is simply a waste of time and resources, and focuses on ganking bot and top.

Whereas a vel'koz is quite possibly going to see his lane camped and rq because everybody is coming mid to kill him including the ADC and the support.

TL;DR: What is the point to play asssassins, when mages are so strong overall and are much safer?

Mages have more raw power than assassins. They have superior damage output and much of their damage is in big AOEs. But otoh they have less choices. They can’t just apply their damage wherever they want and they can’t reach from A to B superfast. Also they can’t turn on their heels and run very well, when cornered.

This is kinda funny but there's another post that is basically the opposite of this.

I kinda think that that other post is basically saying the same thing as I do. Mid lane players prefer playing assassins. They have high pick rate and high ban rate and the only reason we don’t see assassins on mid lane 24/7 is because they got nerfed to an extent that they can’t just go ham on their lane opponent once their items and levels reach critical levels.

Why is it so? I think this is, because of Agency. With an assassin character, you get to do more to others, and less is done to you. In short, you get to make more of the decisions in the game.

Therefore, from a mid laner’s perspective, it is better that assassins dominate and be strong. Mid laners would prefer mid lane to be Assassin VS assassin, rather than mage VS mage. They provide a much more interactive experience in lane, and disregarding the direct lane matchup which can be “sudden death” are overall safer due to the plethora of traversal moves they have. Also they are more able to be elsewhere on the map quickly and reach intended targets.

Add to that the “I can’t gank a lb” and you get that assassins get to make more of the decisions...

At least in lane phase.

Cocho1 votes

{quoted}

The other post claims that mages are more safe than assassins in lane. I disagree with this statement. Reality tells us that mages in mid lane get ganked successfully. The junglers a lot of time choose to focus them down, burn their flashes and dive them. We do not see the same pattern with assassins. Specifically with some mid lane assassins (lb, zed, fizz, maybe now also talon) what we see is the jungler deciding that ganking mid is simply a waste of time and resources, and focuses on ganking bot and top.

Mages have more raw power than assassins. They have superior damage output and much of their damage is in big AOEs. But otoh they have less choices. They can’t just apply their damage wherever they want and they can’t reach from A to B superfast. Also they can’t turn on their heels and run very well, when cornered.

In short, you get to make more of the decisions in the game.

Add to that the “I can’t gank a lb” and you get that assassins get to make more of the decisions... At least in lane phase.

You know what, I agree with just about everything you said. Alot of those reasons are why I like katarina. I was just biased because we don't see assassins mid too much in competitive play.

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