hard top end limits to damage, health/defense

Plasma Servant·Jul 21, 2016·2 votes·620 views

There needs to be a hard limit to a champion's abilities. The limit needs to make it so that you can go so far, and no farther. If a champion can get huge defense/health, they need to be very limited in their damage. If they have lots of damage, they need to always be very squishy. There should never be a champion like illaoi that can have huge health, defense, cc and damage. It just needs to go away. Syndra needs to always be able to be one shot if she has enough damage to one shot other champions ... and I'm talking any champion needs to be able to one shot her. No having both. Don't care that it would change the game, or that you have "balance" across a team. It needs to be balance for every match 1v1.

43 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerJul 21, 20167 votes

Illaoi has a lot of CC

Well now I've heard everything.

-_-

Here's a tip mate: learn what the different classes mean. And I mean the extra ones like juggernaut, not the stated classifications on the client, as those are pretty outdated

Plasma ServantJul 21, 20161 votes

I don't want different classes. Every class should be the essentially the same at least in a cap to the final build capability ... trade damage for health/defense. No having it all.

ApexInTheCircleJul 21, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Plasma Servant,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UkkthjoT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-21T05:59:43.602+0000)

I don't want different classes. Every class should be the essentially the same at least in a cap to the final build capability ... trade damage for health/defense. No having it all.

Uhh gonna have to disagree with you there, then there would be no champion diversity or different flavor of class. At that point there would be no difference between Darius or Nasus, it would just be a bland hodgepodge of boredom.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

No, it would not be boredom ... it would mean total balance. Sure you could have magic damage vs attack damage, but limit both based on health/defense/mobility/cc.

Darius is yet another issue (resets on ability need to go away ... they would break the cap by being able to use a high damage ability many times ... same with kat). Nasus ought not have his q go unendingly higher (without it dropping his health ... eventually to 1 so even a single minion attack would kill him). Veigar with unending ap ... just wrong. you build 400 ap and think you are doing well, then veigar with 500 ap ults you and you go down hard.

RalanrJul 24, 20162 votes

One thing to consider: this game will never be totally balanced on purpose.

I know we all want that, but total balance allows for no new changes.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

That (i.e., no new changes) would be wonderful! In fact, if they went to the end of season 3, removed everything new since then, the game would be **WAY**better than it is now. They have been going downhill ever since.

RalanrJul 24, 20162 votes

Considering how I like the Sion rework, I'm going to to disagree with you.

ApexInTheCircleJul 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Plasma Servant,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UkkthjoT,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-24T15:08:08.292+0000)

No, it would not be boredom ... it would mean total balance. Sure you could have magic damage vs attack damage, but limit both based on health/defense/mobility/cc.

Darius is yet another issue (resets on ability need to go away ... they would break the cap by being able to use a high damage ability many times ... same with kat). Nasus ought not have his q go unendingly higher (without it dropping his health ... eventually to 1 so even a single minion attack would kill him). Veigar with unending ap ... just wrong. you build 400 ap and think you are doing well, then veigar with 500 ap ults you and you go down hard.

except that's not how Veigar's ult works anymore so that's currently a non factor.

Plasma ServantJul 26, 20161 votes

the damage increases with your missing health ... so either you have your health at max all the time, or you die. LOL

LordGeovanniJul 24, 20161 votes

i hear what you saying and by that logic lee sin has lots of mobility he shouldnt have damage or tankyness lucain has lots of mobility he shouldnt have damge or tankyness ashe has lots of damage cut all her cc from her kit mf has tons of damage she doesnt need that strunt or the cc on her e .make all the champions the same based on their class is exactly what you are saying and no body would play that game or most of the characters would be cut out of the game to have 1 character that does the thing for that class

Plasma ServantJul 26, 20161 votes

No, that isn't what I said ... there needs to be a total cap. Having one thing should be a trade off on all others. Building one should automatically drop the others down. As Lee Sin's mobility is high, then if he builds damage/tankiness, his mobility has to go down. All champions should have trade offs that are real, not just potential.

RalanrJul 26, 20162 votes

How the hell could his mobility go down if he builds lots of defense or damage?

What do you just move slower the more armor you have? That only slows down his dashes anyway.

LordGeovanniJul 26, 20161 votes

and your answer for full ad crit and lifesteal carries with range that is inherent safety and mobility that dodges damage completely when assassins used to be able to kill them quickly it was 'unfair' because they couldnt react despite not building any defenses to allow them to live long enough to react

warpenguin555Jul 24, 20163 votes

this is exactly what the roster updates are trying to stop. Not every champion should be doing the same exact thing and building the same items just because they share a class. When a whole class builds the same and does the same thing, only the most overpowered champions from each class get picked. Look at the Assassins, is there ever a reason to pick Talon over Zed? Of course not, Zed does everything Talon does but better. Why would you ever want to pick Akali when you can go LeBlanc? The LCS jungle picks are the same. Gragas, Rek'Sai, Elise, Nidalee pretty much every game because they are the best at what they do and there is really no reason to pick anything else.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

That there are ones that are better is the problem ... eliminate better and diversity would return. A cap would do exactly that. It would mean that Zed isn't going to be better than any other champion. And if he does one thing extremely well, then it drops his other stats to the point that he is vulnerable to the point of being useless.

asamuJul 21, 20166 votes

It's a team game; it's not supposed to be balanced around the 1v1 match ups.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

And that is why I said I don't care that it is a team game ... I know that. But it still needs 1v1 balance. Champion selection ought to be almost a moot point ... there should NOT be counters to a champ, because they should all be able to 1v1 any other champ.

RalanrJul 24, 20163 votes

Your own idea counteracts this logic.

Say I'm playing a tank and I build him full defenses. Since the more damage you have the less health you get, the same is true for more health less damage.

So let's say I'm doing zero damage. I can't 1v1 anyone. I can't even push waves or towers. I'd be entirely reliant on my team to do anything.

That makes it a team game, not balanced around 1v1.

Plasma ServantJul 26, 20161 votes

If you were building no damage and all defense, then yes. Leona used to be nearly all defense ... she almost never got a kill. The cc and defense were her trademark and worked well (you really could take her out, because she could essentially just walk away.) Now she can do damage as well. grrr.

RalanrJul 26, 20161 votes

Now what if I was playing a tank in a solo lane? Like top lane Sion.

What's your answer to tanks that aren't supports?

TargonJul 21, 20162 votes

Illaoi doesn't have "huge CC" though. She can have a hard time 1v1ing some champions in the laning phase unless they stay too close to tentacles or stay around too long after she casts her ultimate.

And Syndra can one shot almost any squishy champion if she's not super far behind and is in range to land her abilities. She'll also die instantly if she's out of position and/or gets CC'd.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

an 80% slow to me is huge.

TargonJul 24, 20162 votes

But at the same time it is her only CC, is single target, requires Illaoi to land a low range skill shot (which can be blocked by minions), and only activates upon destroying her vessel or having her opponent get out of tether range.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

But that means that if she is a good illaoi, then you are toast.

The Last BalladJul 21, 20162 votes

There are tradeoffs though. There is not a single champ in the game that can 100-0 you in 3 seconds, have hyper mobility, and build so tanky that you cannot kill them, and have CC for days. Tank Ekko came close, but not only was that not intended, they are also in middle of beating that to death.

Juggernauts like Illaoi have health and damage, but low mobility and very little cc, which is rarely hard.

Combo Mages like Syndra and Ryze need to be able to effectively push the spell buttons in the right order for what they wish to do, and they cannot kill effectively without that. For instance Syndra cannot "one shot" because she needs to place a ball with her q, place another, extend the life of the first with w, place another, stun you with that one, then ult you. That is 6 actions in order to kill you(which it might not even if she missed some of those!).

Adc's as a class have medium mobility and lowish cc, while being high sustained damage. BUT they have lower health.

Assassins have high mobility, low to no cc, high damage, and low health.

There is a balance, you just are blind to it.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

Except the balance can be mitigated. I don't want there to be any mitigation. A cap would prevent it. If you have health/defense, it takes away from damage (which would really limit some of the hyper carries like nasus ... the more damage he builds with farming his q, the less defense/health he would be able to have). Nasus has a ton of damage, ton of defense, high CC if he can farm. That just needs to be capped. Syndra can get those setups and do well over 1000 damage without any exposure to danger. The real problem from my perspective is invulnerability for any champion. Syndra if she does her combo correctly is invulnerable because you will die. Illaoi is invulnerable because she can hit you like crazy, and if she can land a test of spirits, you either have to stay there and attack her (a tank) while she attacks the spirit or get cc'd and killed by being a vessel. This may be a team game, but balance should be individual champ by champ. There should not be a champ that can 1v1 any other champ and be sure of a kill no matter how good they are at the champ. That is first person shooter ... headshot, you died. Remove that possibility from the game, and you make it better because it removes champions that can kill a particular other champion. Balance would not have to be adjusted because they always are balanced to a single cap ... if you want enough damage, then a single auto-attack (from a mage) would kill you.

underscores222Jul 21, 20161 votes

There are hard limits.
The most HP any champ can have is about 8k (6 warmogs + % HP runes + base) The most AD any champ can have is about 650 (roughly 6 BTs + runes + base) The most Armor any champ can have is about 650 (roughly 6 Thornmails + stuff) The most MR any champ can have is about 450 (6 banshees)

You may not accept these as hard limits, but it isn't possible to get higher stats than building 6 items with the most of the stat you're looking for. This is never going to be a viable strategy.

Void NargacugaJul 21, 20161 votes

Sion 's health literally has no hard cap due to his infinite scaling on his Soul Furnace. Jhin can easily surpass 1000 AD due to his passive just by building normally like any other Marksman due to getting bonus AD from attack speed and Crit Chance. From this Wikia page: he gains 2% - 40% (based on level) (+ 4% per 10% critical strike chance) (+ 2.5% per 10% bonus attack speed) AD as bonus attack damage. Thresh with his passive can gain large amounts of armor, thought it really does have a cap based on how many souls he can collect which does cap out eventually. From his Wikia Trivia page: Thresh's ability actually has a cap at 999,999 souls, at which point Thresh will have **749,999 bonus armor ** and ability power. One of the biggest amount of magic resistance any champion can obtain is 1042.53101184 (which reduces magical damage by 91.248%), being a level 18 Poppy . Look at the trivia section there is a LOT of math involved.

underscores222Jul 21, 20161 votes

I was going with a more generic, average champion, not fringe cases. Sion, Veigar, etc are all exceptions for obvious reasons. Neither of our points, though, really deals with the OP's problem directly.

Void NargacugaJul 21, 20161 votes

There in lies the problem then. If champion kits aren't considered and taken into account then all we have are just item max stats. Which yes maxes out but can have seriously different impact depending on the champion with said items.

Just as a quick example: Building tons of armor on Rammus gives him bonus AD based off 25% of his total armor.

A building like a tank does him very little good. Malphite building like a tank (which he should normally) will be a better tank then Malzahar.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

And I don't have a problem with that per se, but there needs to be limits. Jhin being able to do 1000 ad means his auto is a certain kill if you have less than 1000 health and little armor (auto and one ability and you are toast). That is just wrong.

Void NargacugaJul 24, 20161 votes

That also means since he built for damage he will be squishy as fuck so this makes him a prime target for assassins like Leblanc Zed Talon Ahri Akali .

Plasma ServantJul 26, 20161 votes

His squishiness should be even more extreme (and I play him) so that not only assassins can take him down in an instant, but any champ can.

Plasma ServantJul 24, 20161 votes

Void Nargacuga's point does address what I was saying. It is part of the problem ...

asamuJul 21, 20161 votes

I think % effective HP/Damage is way more relevant that raw numbers.

An ADC with a full build gets about 90% of their basic attack damage from items; some get more or less, depending on their kit.

Someone built full tank gets ~80% of their effective HP from items.

IMO, those numbers are too high, and make the extremes of damage vs defense way too pronounced. I'd like to see items nerfed to bring those numbers closer to 50% with a full build. It's sort of silly when a single item can more than double a character's damage output in the mid game.

LordGeovanniJul 24, 20161 votes

defense is very weak this season and as a squishy carry if a tank hits you and you hit a tank yhe squishy should die first because they dont have any defenses why should they be allowed to live but squishies get heals very easily that synergises with their damage item 1053 item 3010

Plasma ServantJul 26, 20161 votes

From what I have seen, tanks can do a ton of damage if you are close, many of them have a close, and some form of major cc so that you can't get away.

RalanrJul 26, 20163 votes

What tanks?

LordGeovanniJul 26, 20161 votes

tanks dont exist at the moment only characters designed to be tanks but building bruiser because defense is shit and either you build enough armor to survive the adcs first 4 crits and get burst by the mage anyway or build Magic resist to survive the first 2 rounds of the mages 3-6 seconds cooldowns and get 2 crit by an adc and neither you get to do significant damage with so you just build enough to survive the burst and use all your cooldowns and hope you helped your team enough between damage and cc for them to win the fight through your grey screen filter. if your allies arent compitent enough to push afterward before backing you forfeit a good letter grade becuase of the class of champion you play no matter how much you contribute