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''Tanks are so op , they do more DMG as a Carry !!!''

Child of the Pit··28 votes·9,103 views

Ok before i start a discusion , when a carry does lower DMG as a full Tank you can't call him a carry

Allright , let's get the discusion started

i hate people that say they can'T do Dmg to Tanks and Tank would do tons of DMG to them , but ill want to ask , do you think a Nautilus that Builds full Tank does as much DMG as a Full Ad Zed ? NO , he doesn't , so stop saying something like that , if you want to outplay a Tank you have to Build item 3812 item 3156 item 3033 ASAP against Rito Tanks , what Rito Tanks are ? , well that's simple , it are Tanks that have FUll Ap Abilitys because Riot clasificated them as ''TANK'' so this items are a nightmare for every single Zac and others , and for real outplay potential you build stuff like item 3046 item 3072 item 1320 because don't forget , you fight a Tank as best if youKite them , what kiting is ? , its atacking an enemy while running away , so he cant reach you and do DMG to you !

and also take Battering Blows , and Bloodlust of the ... sorry i forgot the Name in english , its the Left Mastery in the Mastery tree in the left it also really penetrates Tank's and against Health Regen Tank's like Mundo you better build item 3036 the Passive effect will hit them really Hard , BUT IT WONT MAKE YOU ABLE TO 1 V 1 THEM !!! ,DONT TAKE THE DANGER TO FIGHT HEALTH REGEN TANKS !!! , STAY WITH YOUR SUPPORT !

Let's end with how 2 counter Tanks , now i wanna speak to people that call Tanks a noob class because of the Season

  1. Jugernauts : a Jugernaut is no Tank ! , they are a Assassin / Tank hybrid !!!! , they are created to do DMG and Take DMG , yes , they are broken ATM but dont blame full Tanks for it !

  2. Tank ranting : even tho Tanks are really easy to outplay everyone is ranting about them , and im mostly called anoob for maining Tanks , but i have a question , why did i never saw any Tank rants in the Boards a season ago ? , why did noone called me a noob when i mained Tanks a season ago ? , guys , get your shit togeter , your just mad because you follow other people that rant about Tans , but thats not good , go your own way , don't follow these QQ crybabys

3.Jugernaut nightmares : it gives a few Champs that are total nightmares to Tanks because of their Kite potential , and/or a ability

KIter : good Kiter are always champs likeSivir Twitch Ezreal Ashe Draven Graves Jhin Kalista Lucian Quinn Build em with item 3046 and unmobile Jugernauts like Garen or Darius will never catch up to you

but it also gives Tank melter , because of True Dmg , Mixed Dmg (Ad and Ap ) , or because they have abilitys that make them allow to Build items that don't gives Atack speed (Such as Jinx) those Champs are : Vayne Varus Tristana Gnar Jinx Kindred MissFortune they can Melt a Tank really fast if they have a good Support , such as Tresh or BC , better take these against Mobile tanks like Maokai or Shen

i just wanted to help you countering the Tanks a bit , so i wont see anymore so many TANKS OP ranting on the boards

also take some Armor Pen Runes , Red ones are the best for Armmor pen

63 Comments

Oleandervine14 votes

What utterly kills me are people that are like "X hits too hard!" or "I can't kill X" when they do not actually build items tailored to the situation at hand. Champion.GG is a good guideline, yes, but is not to be followed 100% to the T when you need to adapt to an odd situation. I had a Garen yesterday whine that he couldn't kill Gragas and that Gragas needed nerfing because he hit way too hard. Meanwhile, this Garen is trying to rush Sunfire and some other HP item and doesn't have an ounce damage or magic resist in his itemization. So it kills me when people don't try to adapt to their situation.

Child of the Pit2 votes

m2 , its just anoying

Surfer Ashe8 votes

Tanks are OP though.

It's not just about their damage, it's the CC and durability that comes with such a seemingly minuscule trade-off in damage.

Maokai can easily 60-70% a squishies HP with nothing more than a RoA as a damage item, locking them down for several seconds with snare, slows and his AoE ultimate making returning damage difficult. Then all it takes is some stray AoE or a RPC proc from the enemy ADC to finish you off.

A tank should not be able to delete most of your HP bar without investing in at least a couple slots of pure offense.

Child of the Pit2 votes

item 3156 item 3053 [zombie-nunu-bummed] not only Melee champs can build them

Surfer Ashe3 votes

{quoted}

item 3156 item 3053 [zombie-nunu-bummed] not only Melee champs can build them

  1. As of next patch, they don't stack. BT will be more attractive as a purchase too.

  2. Unless your name is Graves, you are severally gimping your damage as an ADC building both.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQeZZn8w,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-05-01T15:31:00.997+0000)

  1. As of next patch, they don't stack. BT will be more attractive as a purchase too.

  2. Unless your name is Graves, you are severally gimping your damage as an ADC building both.

KogMaw

Ralanr6 votes

To be honest, this depends on who is being hit. If it's a fighter with a mixture of defense and offense items, then that makes sense. But if it's an adc, Mage, or assassin that's not building any defense, then it shouldn't be surprising that they die easily.

What's the base armor of an ADC? 30? And their defensive states don't increase with level.

Ralanr7 votes

Thanks for doing this man. I think this may help.

As a fellow tank main, I salute you.

F035 votes

Telling low elos to build last whisper is like telling trump supporters he's racist

They don't care

Child of the Pit5 votes

x'D [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] im also unranked , and i do buy LW

F034 votes

{quoted}

x'D [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] im also unranked , and i do buy LW

Unranked isn't a elo

Child of the Pit4 votes

isnt Low Elo better than no elo ?

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Don't let them deceive you. Unranked is the top tier of competitive play. They're just jealous because they figured it out too late and can never go back to being unranked.

Bow before the unranked master race!

Child of the Pit1 votes

:P

F031 votes

{quoted}

isnt Low Elo better than no elo ?

Yes

Frius4 votes
  1. kill a tank when has Soraka Sona Orianna behind him have fun trying
soh1gh23 votes

u just told me to pick Vayne VarusJinx into a Maokai rofl Maokai w is longer range than Vayne aa so she gets destroyed and these 2 get completly destroyed and have no chance at allVarus Jinx cause they have 0 mobility and all Maokai has to do is look at them and they are fkd

Child of the Pit1 votes

item 3156 item 3053 [zombie-nunu-bummed] they are your best friends

YCitizenSnipsY3 votes

You realize both of those items have been nerfed right?

Also your guide is just kind of bad. You mention tank melters but don't have Kog anywhere. Vayne and Kog are the only two tank melting adcs.

You might as well have just said, I'm a tank main and this is what I want you to do to make it easier for me to win. Pick champs like Varus, Miss Fortune , and Jinx into tanks.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Varus has Grievous wounds in his kit and deals %max health magic damage. He also has decent range and hard CC for emergencies. While he may not be the best for it, he still shreds them pretty well.

While I don't agree that picking Jinx into Maokai and/or Shen is necessarily a good idea, I understand the underline thought process. Jinx Q gives her ridiculous attack speed. Which gets even bigger if her passive goes off. She can get away with building little or no attack speed (depending on how you want to play her), which gives her an additional 1 or 2 item slots that other ADC's won't have. Those slots can be used to buy tank busting items.

MF . . . MF . . . MF . . . Other than being the dedicated wombo ADC, I don't know that I would file her under any category. She's an early game bully (300 damage double up at lvl 3 o_O), and a mid/late game ult. I guess you could say she has a more flexible build path and healthy mixed damage to spec into tank shredding. But she still won't be particularly impressive. I don't know. I can't defend this one.

soh1gh23 votes

its not really straight up tanks that are broken its tanky 1 damage item fighters like this that are cancer i dont see how u can have fun playing adc when these champs are in ur gameHecarim Vi Gragas Maokai JarvanIV

Child of the Pit1 votes

i like never have champs ike those in my games , and also for this job you normaly have a support for protection

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

its not really straight up tanks that are broken its tanky 1 damage item fighters like this that are cancer i dont see how u can have fun playing adc when these champs are in ur gameHecarim Vi Gragas Maokai JarvanIV

Gragas and Maokai are tanks, and the others aren't actually doing that well right now.

BattleBoar1 votes

Gragas is listed as a Fighter/mage. No idea why he listed like that but he is.

MakeThemBleed3 votes

Juggernauts are broken ? That's laughable, maybe In low elo but when you bring them up here, everyone knows how to crush them.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Broken =/= OP. I consider Darius Broken. Sure any ranged champ can shit on him quite handedly (and supports generally laugh at him). But 95% of melee champs might as well afk for the first 10-15 minutes. Then his own passive can be blocked by allies doing what they're supposed to (killing things). This extreme style of counter-play isn't very healthy; and I really hope it is unintended.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Not really. His spin is where a lot of his dmg and winning comes from and that has a lot of room for counterplay.

The Lexer3 votes

Tanks don't deal more damage than carries, carries just take more damage than tanks

MultiGFayzer1 votes

Nautilus Build: https://gyazo.com/6b3d7e75662944cf9eb17346b7cdd5ad Nautilus Dmg: https://gyazo.com/cda6b985c5635366b7eaff39fb18b2cd

Repeat what u said

ZeeWolfZ3 votes

Sion item 3068 item 3065 item 3742 item 3025 item 3053 item 3111

With all of that, He does more damage than Burst APs.

GG RITO

Ralanr3 votes

Damage that is incredibly easy to avoid.

MultiGFayzer2 votes

Thats why you pick sion with a team that has cc

Child of the Pit3 votes

Sion is really easy to avoid , if not one of the easyest

iody2 votes

i do agree the whole tank meta complaint is kinda dumb because there are definitely tools to help take down tanks but there are tanks that can easily output a insane amount of damage with no damage items, tahm kench, nasus, maokai, udyr(if build full tank with dev). other thank udyr the rest just build tank items and can easily put out enough damage to take on multiple carries.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

with no damage items, tahm kench, nasus, maokai, udyr(if build full tank with dev).

Tahm: His ult passive and devour damage have been a long running complaint at all elo since his release. Riot doesn't care. Susan: Actually reasonably balanced around having to farm (almost exclusively) for the first 30 minutes. I just find him annoyingly binary since he generally just turns game into a 4v4. Maokai: His bases aren't actually that high. He has good scaling though. He falls under the same category as Malphite and Nautilus. Good burst if building AP. Does no damage if building straight tank. Udyr, Yi, Xin, Shyvana: Has more to do with the insane out-put on dev and their synergy with the ghost-hits. They get significantly less stupid when that item isn't a factor.

iody2 votes

so like i said tahm does alot of damage, nasus does alot of damage, udyr does alot of damage, and i dont know what your thinkin but full tank maokai does alot of damage.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

With no scaling, damage items, or auto attacks, he does up to 1010 + 13% max health damage. That is landing both parts of sapling and a fully charged ult.

For reference, the lowest base health at level 18 (Wiki health page) is mini-Gnar at 1645. 1645 x 0.13=213.85 So his full engage is 1223.85.

Just for fun, let us throw in Gnar's 30 base MR (since that is the standard anyways), which is about 23% reduced damage. 1223.85 x 0.23... = 282.426... ; 1223.85 - 282.426 = 941.42.

For further reference:

Support:

Sona's Q->AA+Passive combo at level 18 does 568.8 base damage. 918.8 with ult. so while she deals less per-hit, in 2-3 rotations she will out-damage Maokai. She also brings a lot more utility than him. Janna does 545 with W and a fully charged tornado and 40 AD while the shield holds. At 5 seconds and 0.625 AS, she can get in 3 AA before it dissipates, meaning up to another 120, for a total of 665. Bard with 60 chimes deals 470 damage.

Average: 684.6

The letter "A":

Aatrox: Who is expected to build AD deals 865 base damage with all skills (1 instance of Blood Price). Ahri: Who is also expected to build damage deals up to 1154 base damage. Akali: 1140 abilities. Passive = 113 x 0.06 = 3.39. 1143.39 (1 AA). Also traditionally built damage (though caught building juggernaut recently). Anivia: With 1 tick of ult, deals 870 damage. Enjoys 2 1.0 AP ratios when used optimally, and ult's 0.25AP ratio ticks per second. Annie: 1 instance of Molten Shield, 1 tick of Tibbers DoT, no AA's. 995 base damage. Also expected to build damage and has high ratios. Brand: 1 instance of ult: up to 1118.75. 3 instances of ult: 1818.75. +8% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.08=131.6. Total: 1950.35.

Average: 1162.9566666...

ADCs:

Corki: Full Gatling gun, 1 regular ult, 1 tick of regular valkyre: 812. Full Gatling gun, empowered ult, full special delivery: 1302. Draven: (Before even crunching numbers, I know this one isn't fair). E + full damage R = 585. 89.25 per spinning axe x 3 (max juggle possible) = 267.75. 852.75. Mind you, he'd be doing 267.75 bonus damage every auto attack in the scenario, though only 1 is assumed. Ezreal: All abilities = 1290. Graves: All Abilities = 1070 (No auto attacks) Kog'Maw: No passive or barrage, target at full health: 690. Target below 25% health: 990. lvl 18, Kog's base stats let him get 7 AAs in during barrage: 140 + 14% max health. Meaning Kog deals up to 1130+14% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.14=230.3. Total: 1360.3. Lucian: Full ult, no passive = 1920 ***Sivir: 194.25. (>_>)

Average: (without Sivir): 7795.05 (with Sivir): 3994.65

Assassins:

Evelynn: 1 instance of Q: 310 + 25% current health. Gnar: 1645x0.25=411.25. Total: 721.25. Fizz: 989 + 8% missing health. Gnar: 1645x0.08=131.6. 1120.6. Edit: Forgot ult's damage amp. 539x0.2=107.8+989= 1096.8 + 9.6% missing health. Gnar: 1645x0.096=157.92. Total: 1254.72 Katerina: no ult: 575. Full ult: 750. Total: 1325. Rengar: Empowered Bola (Because AA damage isn't factored): 910. Anyone who has been insta-gibbed by Rengar can attest to how misleading this number is. Kha'Zix: Empowered isolation, 2 instances of passive (for ult): 1186. Sorry Rengar, Kha wins the base damage contest. Zed: Double hit on Q: 532.5 + 10% max health. With ult amp: 772.125 + 14.5% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.145=238.525. Total: 1010.65. Talon: Full ult and double hit on W: 900. With E amp: 1035

Average: 1120.2814285714...

Other Tanks.

Alistar: 539. Riot, your nerf bat is showing. XD Amumu: 1 Tantrum and 1 tick of despair: 829 + 3% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.03=49.35. Total: 878.35 Braum: A tank man's tank! 776 + 2.5% max health. After Passive pops, Q and AAs deal a bonus 35.2 magic damage. At 0.644 AS, he can get in 3 AAs before his passive resets = 105.6. 881.6 + 2.5% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.025=41.125. Total: 922.725. Galio: Fully charged ult: 1260 Leona: No passive: 990 Malphite: 1 instance of brutal strikes: 945. 3 instances (max possible with base stats): 1095. Nautilus: 1 full instance of shield damage, 1 instance of riptide: 1010. 3 instances of riptide: 1185. Sejuani: Full Flail (base health = 2215x0.03=66.45x4=265.8): 1215.8 + 6% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.06=98.7. Total: 1314.5. Sion: Minimum damage Q and ult: 900. Full damage Q, ult, and empowered E: 1613 Taris: No passive: 240. Fully utilized passive (8 instances): 960.

Average: 1075.7575

Juggernauts.

Darius: Abilities base: 760. Full passive (5 stacks): 135. W minimal damage at lvl 18 (141AD x 0.4 = ) : 56.4. Noxian might not applied. 951.4. Illaoi: W+R: 350. Tentacle damage: [145 base AD] 180+232(passive scaling)+58(Q scaling) = 470. Assuming 3 tentacles (Q, 1 for W, and 1 for R) = 1410. 1760. Malicious Metal Mordekaiser: 845 + 35% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.35=575.75. Total: 1420.75. Susan: 540 + stacks + 75% max health (capped at 3600 damage / 4800 max health). [I've really been underestimating his ult.] Gnar: 1645x0.75=1233.75. Total: 1773.75. Skarner: [Is this guy still considered a juggernaut, or has Riot given up on that?) Raw ability damage: 305. Q: 134x0.45= 60.3. 365.3. [Seriously. Juggernaut?] Tahm Kench: Spitting minions: 560. Eating champions: 260 + 32% max health. Gnar: 1645x0.32=526.4. Total: 786.4.

Average: (Without skarner) 1673.075 (with Skarner) 1019.1875

Fighters.

Diana: (double R) 1100 Fiora: Q+W=355. E: 1 200% crit (116(base AD)x2)=232. Assuming 4 vitals: 8% max health. Gnar: 1645*0.08=131.6. Total: 718.6. Hecarim: (1 instance of Q) 970. Irelia: (full ult) 1020. W: 75 per AA, 6 seconds at 0.665 AS gives 3 AAs = 225. Total: 1245 Jarvan IV: 940 +10% current health. Gnar: 1645x0.1=164.5. Total: 1104.5. Jax: (Fully empowered counter strike) 930 ***Kayle: Q: 260. Fury: 60 per AA, 10 seconds at 0.638 gives 6 auto attacks = 360. Total: 620. Lee Sin: 1140+8% missing health. Gnar: 1645x0.08=131.6. Total: 1271.6. [Kit is still way too overloaded.] Master Yi: Ha ha. No. I'm not dealing with the sated champs until ghost-hit stops warping the F out of them. Renekton: [The good 'ol Renekton bar.] (Empowered Q and E, full ult) 2760 Riven: (Fully empowered ult) 920. Passive: 50%AD (107x0.5=53.5), 7 possible stacks in 1 rotation, 7x53.5=374.5. Total: 1294.5. Wukong: (full ult) 1440.

Average: 1223.10909..... (Yi not included)

Average average: 1365.907812306736796536787012987

(Disclaimer: This analysis is not assumed to be 100% accurate or to perfectly represent the proper generic values of champion base damage. The following biases exist: Champions were chosen for analysis pseudo-randomly, analysis does not differentiate between AoE and single target, All % target health damage (missing, current, and max) was calculated using mini-Gnar's base max health at level 18 (the lowest in game), All stats (AD,AP,AS,health,MS,AR,MR) are assumed to be 0 unless stated otherwise, no time frame was set (some champions had more time to apply damage than others - mostly in the case of DoT effects), all abilities were only used once unless otherwise stated, and numbers with exceptionally large decimal values were rounded or cut off.)

Based on this sampling, Maokai's base damage is roughly average. Interestingly, so is Tahm's (Though in his case, Counter-play and up-time comes into question). I concede that I under-valued Susan's ult, but his damage is still sub-par without it - reinforcing his farming identity. But champions building damage will out-pace them easily. So I still make my original claim: if they build no damage, their damage is still effectively low.

Regardless, I got a bit carried away here. Do with this data what you will.

iody1 votes

well thanks please next time take the time to calculate all tanks damages with full builds. but i am glad you care enough about my opinion to take the time out of your day to do such. good job keep up the good work maybe some day you can get paid to do stuff like this.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

well thanks please next time take the time to calculate all tanks damages with full builds.

Full builds are something of a moving target, so i prefer to avoid them when doing a lot of champions. I guess I could use leaguegraphs and apply the 5 most popular items. I don't know. I'll look into it next week (this week?). No promises.

That said. With a few exceptions, full build tanks building only tank (as I proposed) won't get a noteworthy uptick in damage. If you build hybrid items ("tanky") such as RoA, then it changes matters a bit because you get into scaling.

Thund3r Ang3l2 votes

in fact, people missunderstood the true meaning of ''tank meta''. We are not talking about true tank here... we are talking about adc building maw and sterak then some champion like ekko,fizz,akali,elise etc who are supposed to be mage are actually building tank...and many champion can abuse gauntlet.

When I play shen, people get mad because most of the time I have top damage or 2nd on my team but people forgot that sunfire cape ( Which is a power spike item, like many other items in the game ) is an aoe aura damage and when you use champion like shen/poppy who are always in the middle of the fight plus with their ability to deal HP% damage, it is normal to have a high damage ( Over time damage ) The only true tank who is a real problem is maokai ( In my opinion ! ). Juggs are tailormade to be disruptive in a teamfight.. They have to be scary since they dont have a lot of CC in general, so they HAVE to deal damage to be useful and not just being a KiteFiesta...

Psi212 votes
  1. It is kinda stupid that an AP Nasus works in ARAM and often does the most damage on your team
  2. It is kinda stupid Alister can building completely AP doing ridiculous knock up damage / combo and have increditable amazing Sustain.
  3. It is kinda stupid we have 1:1 ratios rupture and true damage on a tank like Cho
  4. It is kinda stupid that Amumu with crying, sunfire cape and Abyssal can do more dmg over the span of the game than your mages.

The list really goes on and on...

Tanks are supposes to be tanks.

Give them tons of CC and Sustain. Don't allow them also have high ratios/excellent static damage on abilities and never .....never give a juggernaut let alone a tank True damage abilities.

Who hasn't seen an Irelia, Olaf or Garen just out of control with their true damage abilities.

**** I also think it is insulting to tell LoL community you think that a juggernaut can't become a tank in a pinch. ****

The lines between tank/bruiser and juggernaut are just too Blurred. And Riots stupid definition of the class and subclass of champions is a scapegoat to the fact they F'ed up.

Rockm Sockm2 votes

I mostly agree with you but let's not pretend the last whisper changes didn't make it am extremely horrible item.

Meep Man2 votes

To be fair, the previous Last Whisper was essentially a global, "always pick this unless the enemy team is stupid and has no defenses" item. They headed in the right direction with it, but Riot has to learn that items that only provide one of the nine basic stats, being Health, Mana, Armor, Magic Resist, Attack Damage, Ability Power, Attack Speed, Cool Down Reduction, and Critical Strike Chance are usually always going to be global or hardly picked. Look at the items that are like this:

item 3147 item 3036 item 3285 item 3074 item 3072 item 3075 item 3135 item 3033

almost all are either always picked or niche based on the meta. Warmog's is also a little similar, but it provides two of them, so it passes. Only one here that breaks the rule is Ravenous Hydra, which is it's own beast.

khorney1 votes

lord domicks and blade of the ruined king are your best friends.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

item 3033 Forgotten again.(T_T)

Child of the Pit1 votes

AurelionSol ''Lost and forgotten''

grug1 votes

imo

singed is the most unsafe tank to play. the meta forgot about him unlike gragas.

Nyhver1 votes

You don't really outplay champions by building items- that's a very simple part of playing League, it doesn't constitute as a meaningful outplay at all.

The problem is that sometimes, without being fed, a tank will out-duel an ADC while missing things

Fundamentally this is a game design issue of kits, itemization and philosophy. Should a tank that doesn't have much skill in their kit usually win vs. an ADC? Depends on what everyone thinks, but most importantly, Riot.

Masala Chai1 votes

I don't get how Twitch is a kiter tbh, the slow on Venom Cask isn't great.

X Anivia X1 votes

Play Anivia builditem 3151 hit R, E, Q, E, W, E. Was there a tank here?

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