Boards›Gameplay

How about we remove the +15% bonus HP from Cinder-

Rebonack··6 votes·373 views

-and amp its damage aura instead. Make it scale off the user's bonus HP. Make the thing a better Tank item in the sense that if you ignore someone holding it, that damage will stack up quick.

Then add a new item outside the jungle that fills the 'soft-counter to %pen' role so lacking to everyone who isn't packing Smite. Bring back Soul Shroud (item 3114 item 1011 item 3067 ) and give it the +25% bonus HP passive. This would allow Tanks in positions other than Jungle to grab the item and not explode instantly when someone with Whisper or Voidstaff looks at them funny.

Because in spite of what folks seem to think, the proper reaction to someone with Void/Whisper is to build a hell of a lot of HP. Tons of it. Oodles of it. So much HP that it's typically difficult to hit the milestone on most champions unless you start the game with the build in mind. We're talking on the order of 2.4k for every 100 resist you pick up. I made a topic about this, months ago, back before Cinder made it into the game. I warned against the impact that shoehorning it onto a jungle item would have, but sadly the warning wasn't heeded and now here we are.

Seriously.

Putting an effect as important as HP multiplication on a Jungle item never should have happened. It would be like making Deathcap or Infinity Edge Smite-exclusive items. If such a thing were to happen, then pretty much everyone would be running Smite. So it should come as no surprise that Tanky folks started spamming Cinder like crazy. It is too important of a tool to miss out on.

C'mon, Riot. Do the right thing here.

Let Cinder focus on the burning. It's a cool passive. Let that be its thing.

Add the +25% Bonus HP passive to a new item and allow people without Smite to Tank effectively.

11 Comments

Crett4 votes

you were downvoted cuz of the title. lol this is a good change actually

Sohleks2 votes

I'm not convinced we really need a %hp multiplier to build a lot of hp though.

A new fat 20% cdr hp item would be really nice. Maybe OP. But as far as the health goes what is different about it than having a big hp item like warmogs. If the % is OP enough it WILL be core on tanks which isn't a cool thing for tank itemization for some reason IMO.

Cinderhulk has a scaling % multiplier to help it scale into late game as a 2.2k gold item without spiking it too hard mid game. It is in no way a necessary item for all tanks in all roles.

Crett2 votes

it is for sion. %hp runes and masteries + cinder used to be 37% more W HP

Lugg1 votes

Yeah, let's make Cinderhulk where it will never be picked since you can get more damage from Ruinglave and Devourer.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, let's make Cinderhulk where it will never be picked since you can get more damage from Ruinglave and Devourer.

How do you know it would deal less damage than other options if Cinder's burn aura scaled with bonus HP?

Dealing 100% of your bonus HP per second in an aura around you would eclipse Devourer's paltry damage by no small margin.

See, problem is you're responding in a knee-jerk style to imagined numerical balance points that haven't even been talked about. How much damage should an item like Cinder be dealing to make it attractive if it only grants HP and a burn aura? What if it got its Tenacity back in addition to an amped aura? There are many factors that could figure into this, future nerfs to Devourer notwithstanding.

I'm not convinced we really need a %hp multiplier to build a lot of hp though.

Such an item MUST be core BECAUSE %Pen exists. If Void and Whisper weren't a thing, then resist values could be nerfed to sane levels and a %HP item wouldn't be needed. Before we had a %HP item, people who built Tank were immortal against folks without Whisper/Void and free food to people with them. And everyone outside of Wood Tier knows to build the %Pen items because they're one of the most cost effective offensive tools in the game.

Giant sources of HP are a soft counter to stacking %Pen. You could pull it off without a %HP effect, but it would require something like the old 1.2k HP Warmog's.

Lugg1 votes

I can GUARANTEE that Riot won't make Cinderhulk ever do anywhere near the damage of Ruinglave or Devourer.

Why? Because you can't have naturally tanky champions doing equivalent damage without making them automatically stronger. It's just common sense.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I can GUARANTEE that Riot won't make Cinderhulk ever do anywhere near the damage of Ruinglave or Devourer.

Why? Because you can't have naturally tanky champions doing equivalent damage without making them automatically stronger. It's just common sense.

Really?

Are yo sure?

Are you really, really sure?

Rammus, Tree, Sej, Tahm, even Leona. They all deal tremendous amounts of damage over time if you leave them alone. That's sort of the idea behind a Tank. They need to be a threat, otherwise they get ignored.

That's why I really like the idea of ramping burn damage on Cinder. I think Riot should explore that concept further. The more you ignore the Tank, the more they hurt.

Lugg1 votes

{quoted}

Rammus, Tree, Sej, Tahm, even Leona. They all deal tremendous amounts of damage over time if you leave them alone. That's sort of the idea behind a Tank. They need to be a threat, otherwise they get ignored.

Tahm does good damage due to his devour, but the only reason any of those champs are real threats is due to their CC, not their damage.

RogueWill1 votes

Rammus only posses CC for a single enemy but he is far from ignored due to the high damage output from his ult, if you ignore rammus he will kill you. It will take him a solid 15sec but he will kill you. Old Sej treat was on her W not really on her CC, her cc was dangerous with a team but most of her damaged came from her W that's why even after ult you couldn't ignore her or she would zone and melt your carries on the backlines.

Tanks with high CD or single target CC needs to do damage otherwise they are completely ignored once their CC is burn. You have to give a reason for the enemy to attack that huge mass of HP and resistance coming at you otherwise they are unable to fill their intended purpose.

Lugg1 votes

{quoted}

Rammus only posses CC for a single enemy but he is far from ignored due to the high damage output from his ult, if you ignore rammus he will kill you. It will take him a solid 15sec but he will kill you.

15 seconds is an eternity in league. The fight is usually decided in 5 seconds.

Old Sej treat was on her W not really on her CC, her cc was dangerous with a team but most of her damaged came from her W that's why even after ult you couldn't ignore her or she would zone and melt your carries on the backlines.

When Cinderhulk first came out, the synergy with her was stupid OP. As things are now, she does ok damage, but there is no way anyone would focus her over a carry.

Tanks with high CD or single target CC needs to do damage otherwise they are completely ignored once their CC is burn. You have to give a reason for the enemy to attack that huge mass of HP and resistance coming at you otherwise they are unable to fill their intended purpose.

Like I said, the only reason to focus tanks is the CC. That is why they exist. They don't need damage to do their job.

Sniper 01 votes

Cinderhulk is a tank item. You need sustained damage as a tank because generally you're not bringing a lot of it to the team. Hp is also a stat you need on tanks... Cinderhulk isn't even one of the strongest jungler items. The hp % allows the item to scale into late game which has been a problem with jungle items in the past. Cinderhulk is at a pretty good place balance wise. The other jungle items just need to be brought to it's level of impact.

I've only seen tanks run it. Runeglaive and devourer kinda keep it from being run on anything else. and it only applies to bonus hp so you have to stack hp to actually

Laning tanks don't need the hp passive because they don't have a jungle item taking up space in their inventory...

I also see that you don't have a ranked game under your belt. correct me if I'm wrong of course. You don't know how the meta works and jungle tanks aren't massively overpowered. When a laner picks up smite it's generally for devourer... lol

You also want the damage to scale off of bonus hp... They scaled back the damage because it was a massive issue.... Honestly adding damage to it would just break it massively.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Rebonack

If you're set on killing Dominion, Riot, then let it go out with a bang instead of a whimper
Gameplay104 comments
496
votes
Spirit Visage has less HP than its components
Gameplay136 comments
386
votes
I would rather see no Crit on Trinity rather than no AP
Gameplay153 comments
245
votes
How about we swap Twitch's stealth with Eve's?
Gameplay70 comments
173
votes
How would you feel if each player on each team got one ban?
Gameplay152 comments
167
votes
It's a travesty that Jhin can sit on his fourth shot for ten seconds
Gameplay85 comments
147
votes