Surprise! There's a REASON Hexdrinker is more efficient than unstacked Armguard but NOT stacked.

Joxcab··5 votes·788 views
  1. Assassins have poor waveclear early without burning their only safety tool or lots of mana. All mages have good waveclear and an early Lost Chapter offsets any mana problems from there on out as long as they don't spam like an idiot. AKA, they can actually stack Armguard fairly easily.

  2. ALL mages are ranged. ALL AD mids are melee. Mages have both unmissable ranged autoattacks and ranged AoE abilities as well as targeted (for some mages). Mages have CC which brutalizes assassins. Read: Mages have a lot better poke than any AD melee in the game.

  3. The only way an assassin is going to do anything to a mage is by using their gapcloser. Which has a fairly long cooldown in early and is usually one of the last maxed abilities for any assassin. AKA, gives up waveclear potential and safety/chance of escape if the engage goes badly. Mages have ranged autoattacks to constantly bully any melee with as well as AoE long range abilities which can also be used point blank which are on a lot lower cooldown because it's usually part of their main rotation.

#4. Assassins are meant to be strong early and midgame. Mages are meant to scale lategame as one of the hypercarry classes.

38 Comments

Elewd2 votes

"all ad mids are melee" Corki Ezreal Jayce Urgot Varus Seriously all 5 of these champs can be played mid (some better than others) and they tend to go ad (most of the time)

Joxcab3 votes

Corki mid isn't really a thing right now.

Ezreal mid tends to go AP.

Jayce mid is uncommon honestly.

Urgot is... Urgot.

Varus is... Varus. Doesn't really work outside of certain countermatchups like Azir though honestly.

Elewd2 votes

It doesn't change anything tho, they are AD champs that CAN be played mid effectively, just because they are uncommon now doesn't mean they always were.

However i WILL agree they are outliers, since they also are meant to scale into midlategame like mages do, (besides Urgot because hes an earlygame monster)

Joxcab2 votes

Yeah, valid point. Should've probably stated I was talking about more common AD mids, who are almost all assassins.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Whether or not they are common or uncommon atm is irrelevant. Some mages are uncommon but they are still mages who go mid.

Penns2 votes

Just that it is more efficient than fully stacked Armguard because of its shield.

Joxcab2 votes

138% stacked versus a little over 100% with shield active?

Lauchmelder1 votes

{quoted}

138% stacked versus a little over 100% with shield active?

The shield is NOT part of that calculation, you haven't even read the post.

Joxcab2 votes

Or you could just do the math yourself?

Lauchmelder1 votes

Considering you obviously didn't do it why should I?

Also, Hexdrinker is 102.31% efficient. Seeker's needs 12 stacks before it matches that efficiency. A fully stacked Seeker's IS more efficient stat-wise than Hexdrinker, but that's not accounting for the Lifeline shield.

Hexdrinker's passive interacts with itself, similar to Thornmail. Given the lowest amount of magic resistance possible with this item (30 + 35 = 65), then the damage taken calculation (100 ÷ 165 = 0.606), then the raw damage conversion ([110~280] ÷ 0.606), the shield will absorb around 182 to 462 raw magic damage.

Quoted from The Lost Marbles.

Aka, he got me covered.

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Assassins have poor waveclear early without burning their only safety tool or lots of mana. All mages have good waveclear and an early Lost Chapter offsets any mana problems from there on out as long as they don't spam like an idiot. AKA, they can actually stack Armguard fairly easily.

Semi correct. Mages still have mana problems if they spam their abilities like some AD mains think they can.

  1. ALL mages are ranged. ALL AD mids are melee. Mages have both unmissable ranged autoattacks and ranged AoE abilities as well as targeted (for some mages). Mages have CC which brutalizes assassins. Read: Mages have a lot better poke than any AD melee in the game.

Plain out wrong. Akali Varus, just to name 2.

  1. The only way an assassin is going to do anything to a mage is by using their gapcloser. Which has a fairly long cooldown in early and is usually one of the last maxed abilities for any assassin. AKA, gives up waveclear potential and safety/chance of escape if the engage goes badly. Mages have ranged autoattacks to constantly bully any melee with as well as AoE long range abilities which can also be used point blank which are on a lot lower cooldown because it's usually part of their main rotation.

Mages have to decide: Do I go for the poke with my abilities or do I go for the CS? Only when the enemy is stupid and stands in the minion wave he gets to do both at the same time.

** #4. Assassins are meant to be strong early and midgame. Mages are meant to scale lategame as one of the hypercarry classes.**

Yes, they are meant to be strong early and midgame but fall off lategame. They don't fall off lategame if they just get ahead slightly, thanks to their itemization.

Joxcab3 votes
  1. Which is literally why I said "as long as they don't spam like an idiot".

  2. Akali isn't a mage. She's an AP assassin. Varus mid is extremely uncommon and only works against certain matchups like Azir and is shit otherwise. My bad, lul.

  3. They don't stand in the minion wave, you get a free unblocked skillshot (since minions block most skillshots). They stand in there, you hit them with AoE or minion-passthrough instead. You poke them, wave comes to your tower or close, you just farm it easily. You farm near tower passively instead, they can't do anything because they can't towerdive without suiciding and most likely failing.

  4. Um, I don't think you understand what "fall off" means. It's because assassins are single-target killers. Mages scale more because AP scales better than AD (outside of crit/attack speed on ADCs) and they have AoE as well as CC which is more helpful in a teamfight as well as range. A melee assassin jumps on one person surrounded by their team, it's not going to go well. As a mage, you'd just stand from range in the backline safely and drop rotations.

Before you start complaining I want APs gutted again, no, I don't. I think as a stat type, they're mostly fine. I play both AP mids and AD mids extremely commonly, and both against each other.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Your number 3 is utterly flawed because that's what everybody can do.

Not gonna comment on 1 and 2. 4 though? Yea, I know what fall off means. I doubt you know it though.

Joxcab2 votes

Except for the third point, mages are the class that capitalize and revolve around AoE and skillshots. But okay, if calling it utterly flawed floats your boat.

You know what falling off is. Which is why you said assassins don't fall off. Which is blatantly incorrect. They could be 10 million kills and 0 deaths. They would still fall off lategame. Hmmm... You sure seem to know what you're talking about LMAO

Lauchmelder1 votes

I'm tired of you having no actual argument. Cya on the blacklist, send regards to LyingOnLine.

Joxcab2 votes

Oh no, it ran out of arguments, it thinks I care.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Mages also have very limited to no mobility where Assassins all have a good amount of mobility.

weirdddddddddddddddd

Rewt2 votes

All mages are ranged........ no they arent. Rumble Kassadin Galio Diana Amumu

Joxcab2 votes

Rumble isn't a mage. He's an AP Bruiser. Kassadin is an AP assassin - well, used to, now he's just weird. Galio isn't a mage. He's an MR tank. Diana is an AP assassin/duelist. Amumu is an AP tank.

Try again.

Lauchmelder3 votes

Try again on your entire thread mate.

Joxcab2 votes

Come back once you learn what you're babbling about.

Rewt3 votes

Rumble is a mage. You are just wrong. he always has been a mage.

After the nerfs to Kassadin He is now and Anti-Mage Mage. He Used to be an assassin but he really isnt anymore.

Galio is actually a mage. He is what we call a mage tank.

Diana is a mage. Pure and simple on that. Like Viktor she fits into the burst mage catagory. But she is still a mage. Fizz is an assassin.

Amumu is another Mage tank.

Some definitions for you.

Mage Tank- A champ that while primarily focusing on his tankyness can be a viable secondary AP damage source for your team.

Assassin- Blow your load and peace the fuck out.

Diana definately does not fit into the assassin catagory. she is best used on a slightly bruisery build with a lot of AP. this allows her to stay in the fight and keep attacking, She does not play like an assassin.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Rumble is a Mage lol. A AP Assassin is still a Mage, just like a AD assassin is still a ADC. ADC is just a generic term we gave to marksman, but in reality Assassins are carries as well. Marksman are just ranged versions, I mean shit some of them burst harder than some ASsassins late game, so in such Assassins are more early/mid game oriented burst wise. Galio is indeed a Mage Tank Diana is a Mage Fighter Amumu I agree is a AP Tank.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Which is literally why I said "as long as they don't spam like an idiot".

  2. Akali isn't a mage. She's an AP assassin. Varus mid is extremely uncommon and only works against certain matchups like Azir and is shit otherwise. My bad, lul.

  3. They don't stand in the minion wave, you get a free unblocked skillshot (since minions block most skillshots). They stand in there, you hit them with AoE or minion-passthrough instead. You poke them, wave comes to your tower or close, you just farm it easily. You farm near tower passively instead, they can't do anything because they can't towerdive without suiciding and most likely failing.

  4. Um, I don't think you understand what "fall off" means. It's because assassins are single-target killers. Mages scale more because AP scales better than AD (outside of crit/attack speed on ADCs) and they have AoE as well as CC which is more helpful in a teamfight as well as range. A melee assassin jumps on one person surrounded by their team, it's not going to go well. As a mage, you'd just stand from range in the backline safely and drop rotations.

Before you start complaining I want APs gutted again, no, I don't. I think as a stat type, they're mostly fine. I play both AP mids and AD mids extremely commonly, and both against each other.

Okay let me set a couple things straight which you dont understand. "Mage" refers to "Magic damage caster". Akalai deals magic damage via abilities, ergo she is a "mage".

"Assassin" Is a broad term for "Any caster which deals most of their damage via abilities and has both escape and engage".

"AD caster" refers to "Attack damage caster". Champions like lucian and varus deal most of their damage via abilities, ergo they are AD-casters.


There are not "non-caster" assassins. EVERY assassin, by definition, is a caster. Divers are VERY similar to assassins, except they lack the "And" part of escape and engage. Divers have one ability which is one or the other, never both at the same time.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

AP ASsassins such as LB, Ekko, and Fizz can build Morello if they please.

Secondally it doesn't make sense that Armguard has to stack, when a Hexdrinker gets it's stats right away plus a bad ass shield that basically makes mages combo's obsolete. Even with a full stacked Armguard mages still get F'd in the A by Talon, Zed, and Yas.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Don't try, the bias will just downvote you.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Whoa is this Tabias Brackner?

(Him not you)

Lol I didn't Op.gg him is he a assassin playeR? I'm not confused.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Nah, but that happens to anyone disagreeing with the OP and his kind. A civilized discussion's impossible.

Joxcab2 votes

The irony of someone who creates strawman arguments to supplement his own flimsy points and throws around insults and bashing talking about civilized discussion being impossible, lul?

Lauchmelder1 votes

The only insult here is me needing to see certain posts by certain biased people.

Joxcab2 votes

The entitled arrogance is amusing. Go on. Entertainment is nice.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Meh, I'm just a 2 season gold player, I mean, what do I know of balance. I'm just slightly better than bronze after all.

Joxcab1 votes

Pulling the rank card doesn't help if you're still ignorant and/or blatantly incorrect/biased to the point of warping your points into incorrectness.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

And yet you downvoted me without even commenting on what I said.

Joxcab1 votes

LB, Ekko, and Fizz are all assassins. LB is the only one with range out of all of them. She's also the only one with any sort of quick waveclear, but that was nerfed a while back as well. In return for the waveclear, she also lost almost all of her damage.

I literally explained why that's the case. Hexdrinker is so the earlygame champions actually stand a chance when literally every factor is against them. Armguard is because the users scale and it becomes incredibly gold efficient with said scaling/farming.

No, it does not make their combo obsolete. It means you poke them and break the shield first then kill them.

Fully stacked Armguard, good for you I guess? It's not a tank item. It doesn't make you tanky. It makes you tanki_er._ But if you're still pretty much a glass cannon, and AD assassins go full flat pen, what do you expect?

MrHaZeYo1 votes

LB, Ekko, and Fizz are all assassins.

I believe I said that?

She's also the only one with any sort of quick waveclear, but that was nerfed a while back as well.

Weird I didn't realize Ekko Qs weren't wave clear

I literally explained why that's the case. Hexdrinker is so the earlygame champions actually stand a chance when literally every factor is against them. Armguard is because the users scale and it becomes incredibly gold efficient with said scaling/farming.

Even fully stacked, Hexdrinker is a better item, The shield isn't taken into consideration for Gold Value, but that shield negates mages early games and somewhat their mid games vs those users. Where as Mages need to complete Zhonyas to get the full protection the AD assassins already get from just a Hex Drinker.

No, it does not make their combo obsolete. It means you poke them and break the shield first then kill them.

If I had to build Armguard 1st, I don't have the mana to just poke them down and keep the waves pushed/stalled.

Fully stacked Armguard, good for you I guess? It's not a tank item. It doesn't make you tanky. It makes you tankier. But if you're still pretty much a glass cannon, and AD assassins go full flat pen, what do you expect?

You can make the same argument the other way around. Except Hexdrinker gives you better overall tankyness than a Armguard due to it's pretty low CD Shield.

Also Talon Qs can clear the wave pretty well, Zed WQs or even just Qs can keep waves at bay. Yas gets the luxary of just Eing around Qing to quickly farm and push while having a Windwall to stop spells from doing much.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

If you're going to bitch and moan to everyone that posts, make yourself look like a dumbass and all that. Use your real account instead of hiding behind whatever this bronze monstrosity is.

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