Support items need nerfs... But so does everything else.

TeCoolMage··1 votes·432 views

The support items in their current state are a ticking time bomb.

Given enough time, champions that rely on burst like assassins will just be given more damage, creating a power creep. Though support items DO increase support impact, the problem was that damage was too valuable, not that shields and heals were useless, and that damage is more useful even from supports than healing and shielding (just as long as there was some CC, hence the meta where burst mages went bot lane support)

Support's current items are also going in the right direction: they're giving late game scaling by letting supports have more multiplicative scaling with % heals (think ADCs: They have AD, AS, Crit %, Crit damage, AND penetration, along with a level bound % AD increase like lucian's passive, Vayne's Q ranks, etc so their power over time is not as linear), but their actives and other passives are set to be as useful as damage from carries who are already killing each other and tanks a bit too easily.

While it may seem fine, damage before the support itemization was under a completely different context and already suffering from creep, it was balanced with these conditions:

  1. Squishy targets have some sort of defense in either mobility, range, or a window of tankiness
  2. Tanky targets pressure high damage champions to not blow up squishy targets by making them buy %health or %penetration which is inefficient against non-tanks
  3. CC can interrupt damage

Now, shielding + healing is no longer a bit of sustain or a small window of tankiness, it gives squishy champions a lot of extra stats to be closer to tanks while doing nothing to make % health or % penetration any more efficient against them. Eventually damage will be given buffs, leaving tanks to be as squishy as the ADC + support, the unfortunate carry that the support does not shield on time will always die in one hit.

TLDR; lower heal + shield numbers from item actives as well as overall damage in the game as tanks die too quickly, squishy champions will rely completely on the existence of shields and healing and supports will just be walking health bars and stats

23 Comments

khorney2 votes

u really want to see supps go look at supps in heroes of the storm those are supp

Beldair1 votes

I agree...and unlike with this game, HoTS Supports are a teams primary target (learned that the hard way XD)

TeCoolMage1 votes

no one cares about other games, I remember specifically posting on the gameplay balance board in the league of legends website, not the HoTS subreddit.

TeCoolMage1 votes

lmfao downvoted by salty support mains because the boards worships them all the time.

No, I'm not saying gut supports you dense idiots, I'm saying buffing supports rather than nerfing carries is the wrong way to go.

inb4 "oh but muh freelo I want to be showered with constant attention but also want to not interact with the enemy team"

Beldair1 votes

Nothing is wrong with supports..

I have no issues decimating an adc as Tahm, Braum, Bard, or Janna.

TeCoolMage1 votes

nope. there are plenty of things wrong with the current state of supports. They're made to be balanced against damage, which is unbalanced in itself.

Right now supports are fine giving extra health bars and having an impact but soon the game will be made to revolve around the carries having shields constantly and everything dying in one spell outside of a team fight or 2v1.

Beldair1 votes

Do you even play support?

TeCoolMage1 votes

yes. I do.

Beldair1 votes

Your being down voted for your clear lack of knowledge of Support.

Support mains are probably not the only ones downvoting you.

Supports can be quite strong in their own rights... But just like other roles, they are only strong when you play them correctly.

TeCoolMage1 votes

No, you're an idiot who'd gladly base their ideas of balance off another game. If you want HoTS supports, go play HoTS. This is league, and it's balanced around completely different variables.

And of course supports are good only when you play right. If I afk'd as a support or inted of course I wouldn't be strong. Stop bitching about completely unrelated points as if I want to gut supports and stop them from being strong 'when you play them correctly'.

Beldair1 votes

I never said you wanted supports to be gutted... Learn to read.

Also, I know HoTS and LoL are 2 different styles of Mobas..(having played both as well as Smite and Dota2).

I happen to be a Support Main on LoL and do actually know what I am saying in regards to supports.

You are wanting to buff them...even buffing their items can cause problems.

If you buff a Support Item, other lanes may start abusing it.

You buff the champion themselves, and it can cause off balance issues in the bot lane.

I personally believe supports are in a good spot right now. Could we use more supportive items, of course. But buffs towards various champs or items, probably not.

TeCoolMage1 votes

you didn't read anything, not even the title.

I said support items need nerfs (along with high burst + DPS) because Riot's decision to make items like redemption and knights vow powerful for the sake of keeping it up with current high damage was bad and that the best way to improve the support role was to make overall damage less. (in comparison, support items would be better because damage would be weaker)

Champions like fiddlesticks can take redemption because it's so freaking broken as it's balanced around the 1k crit auto attacks and 1k damage spells that other champions have. The better choice was to make redemption ok if not a bit weak and to stop 1k crits and 1k damage spells from happening in the first place.

Damage has been going up since the introduction of keystone masteries, several reworks and item additions, it should've been reduced to work within the level of tanks and supports but instead tanks and supports were bumped up to match them in power. That's power creep.

Would you like to play a game where vayne is MEANT to one shot you UNLESS you bought redemption and locket (thus reducing the amount of builds and item diversity because you HAVE to buy these items against high damage) as a form of balance?

Beldair1 votes

No one buys Knight's Vow on Fiddlesticks.

And Supports have a varied item base to deal with any threat.

Not everyone builds Redemption or Knight's Vow.

So I will say this again...Supports and their items are fine where they are.. We've already had Riot gut our Frost Queen's Claim because of mid laners and I have yet to see any other lanes run Redemption or Knight's Vow.

TeCoolMage1 votes

No one buys Knight's Vow on Fiddlesticks.

No but I can buy them on tanks, in fact some mages like Cassiopeia, Lissandra, Anivia and Veigar that have enough DPS, CC or free stats to lose 1 full item of damage can buy Knight's vow. It works as a good replacement to frozen heart if you have a fed ally. Also I said REDEMPTION not knight's vow

And Supports have a varied item base to deal with any threat.

I don't care. That's not my point.

Supports have too high stats on their redemption healing, knight's vow damage reduction, etc because the ADCs, mages and assassins all kill each other in 1 shot (which is a balance problem in itself) and rather than solving that first and making support items balanced around balanced damage, they made support items balanced around broken damage.

"A stitch in time saves nine" and when damage creep is sent down, these items will be broken, and it'll take even longer to fix. They could've easily saved a lot of pain by making the items AFTER fixing the fact that everyone with damage one shots each other and two shots tanks.

So I will say this again...Supports and their items are fine where they are.. We've already had Riot gut our Frost Queen's Claim because of mid laners and I have yet to see any other lanes run Redemption or Knight's Vow.

No they're not fine, they're balanced around broken things. You don't put put a fragile priceless ancient artifact on a table about to collapse, and you don't balance support items around broken amounts of damage

A more practical example:

squishy champions have 50 HP while tanks have 100 HP. Damage dealers do 75 damage per spell so they two shot tanks and one shot each other.

a shield that absorbs 100 points of damage is added into the game, the reasoning is that supports need a bigger impact in the face of all this damage and keeping someone alive by doubling the time it takes to kill them is a huge impact

After several months of tracking win rates and numbers, damage is nerfed, tanks shouldn't be two shot, squishy champions champions shouldn't be one shot, it doesn't invite counter play or fun, it's just who reacts first and it's boring. Now spells do 25 damage and two shot squishy champions while four shots to kill tanks. Now shields TRIPLE the amount of damage a squishy champion (50+100=6 shots, from 2 shots) can take, which ends up making shields broken

shields have to be nerfed to match damage at 40 points of damage, after several more months of tracking win rates and numbers because damage has less impact to compete so maybe shields don't have to double survivability, maybe they can just make someone 1.25x tankier, or maybe lower impact of damage means shields have less worth, who knows.

Now it's nearly been a year of everyone playing league of who spams their abilities faster. Back to square 1 where things are balanced

All of that time could've been saved by spending a few months nerfing damage and only after that, from the very start, make the shield item do 40 points of damage.

While it's 'just shields/heals' at first, as Riot introduces more things without fixing problems before hand, it just adds more work.

Beldair1 votes

Idk why I'm even trying...you will never understand.. 13 people disagree with you..

How about looking at that and thinking more about what you are saying..

Early game, yes, Support's shields and heals can define bot lanes survival. But late game, their shields and heals aren't as impactfal (unless it's a well timed Morgana Spell Shield or a Soraka heal).

But that is how it is supposed to be. Early game, supports with shields/heals shine brightly. Late game, they fall off more than cc heavy supports.

TeCoolMage1 votes

oh my god you're literally unable to comprehend what I'm saying.

I don't care about how or when shields 'define' bot lanes survival, or whether they fall off or not

stop spewing random gibberish and bitching about random things, I'm saying that shields and heals are balanced around a brokenly large amount of damage.

Beldair1 votes

And with that I am gonna stop trying to get my point through that stubborn and clearly empty head of yours and live my Supportive game in peace.

TeCoolMage1 votes

[deleted]

Beldair1 votes

I stayed on the topic. You made a post about Supports and Support items.. Each of my comments have been about Support and their items. You just didn't read it properly apparently.

And might I advise you go see anger management and get a life.

Those kind of remarks are just as egotistical and uneducational as the go kill yourself remarks people will make in game. And it is also why many people have left LoL for other MOBAs, the toxicity of it's playerbase is just down right ridiculous.

This is a game, not life. It is for people to have fun playing it and for Riot to profit on the sales from it.

But since have to speak on an uneducated level, let me dumb it down for you.

The. Damage. Is. Not. Broken. It. Is. Only. Strong. When. They. Have. Items. Which. Supports. Have. Plenty. Of. Items. To. Balance. Against. Most. Mobas. Have. A. Focus. On. Damage. Dealers. Not. Healing/Shields/Utility.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Oh wow, only now do you actually address damage anywhere in your comments and somehow manage to claim you've been trying to make a related point (but in reality you've been speaking about random things like power spikes and supports feeling useful when I've been speaking about game health)

The. Damage. Is. Broken. It. Kills. Tanks. And. Squishy. Champions. Too. Easily. And. Buying. Shields. Or. Heals. Is. Not. A. Form. Of. Counterplay. As. It. Means. The. Side. With. No. Healing. Or. Shielding. Always. Loses. That. Is. Not. Fair. There. Should. Be. A. Choice.

And trust me, you're no better. "do you play support", "you will never understand", "Learn to read". Please. At least I acknowledge that I can be like this, you act as if you're not part of the problem and stand on some moral high ground where you're on top and the entire community is below your feet being 'downright ridiculous'

But whatever, continue to delude yourself into believing that everyone one shotting each other at a 50% win rate unless the support is around isn't broken, I don't care

Beldair1 votes

You saying the damage from champs easily kills tanks is incorrect. I primarily play Tanks (Braum, Tahm, Sejuani, Maokai, Galio) and can take a lot of attacks from ADCs and APCs before going down. And I only usually go down when they focus me.

Squishy champions aren't really meant to take a ton of damage, but they don't get 1 shot like you claim. When I play Sivir against a Vayne, it takes quite a bit more than just 1 shot to kill me.

I've played matches where we had no shields or heals and they had a Soraka with a Vayne bot but we still not only won bot lane, but also the game. And I'm sure others could confer that shields and heals do not mean a win against a team with no shields or heals.

So I'll reiterate, the Damage is NOT broken. Are there maybe a few champs that can be Broken LATE GAME, yes. But overall, no..damage isn't broken.

TeCoolMage1 votes

You winning one game against a Soraka Vayne late game combo doesn't mean much, there are plenty of ways to win especially by not 1v1ing Vayne and by not letting Soraka output constant heals by either killing her or applying grievous wounds.

Not to mention that game lies in the minority considering the fact Vayne wins over half her games in a role that appears pretty much every game at the highest play rate while Soraka has a 53% win rate, making them among the highest win rate support and ADCs.

And I've been on the receiving end of a 3 shot with frozen heart as a defensive item, that Vayne might have build traditional blade of the ruined King shred built instead of trinity - shiv - IE with one or two lethality items or phantom dancer

Beldair1 votes

Never said 1. And the Vayne went Crit.

And if Frozen Heart is your only defensive item, then that is why you get 3 shot.

Typical Tank support build for me is: Eye of the Equinox, DMP, Warmog, Randuin's or Spirit Visage (based on enemy comp and build), Swifties, and Iceborn Gauntlet/Banshee's Veil/Frozen Heart (bases on enemy comp and build).

More from Gameplay

More by TeCoolMage