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The 8.1 Resolve tree changes ruined Supports (and other champs too).

mSticky··4 votes·2,447 views

The 8.1 Resolve tree changes now cause selecting the Resolve tree to grant 65 HP and half of the stats of the other category you selected.

If you're not a top lane or jungling bruiser, these changes are absolutely awful. ** TL;DR. The new Resolve tree changes suck. Rito should just tag on extra health to the Resolve secondary tree and stop messing around with stat distributions. **

Consider shield/heal supports like Lulu Nami Soraka Janna , all of whom traditionally run an Aery Sorcery page and Font of Life and Revitalize in Resolve for maximum healing/shielding potential. In order to have the most amount of laning impact, enchanters traditionally try to maximize their AP in the laning phase. However, instead of an optimal "pure AP" start (Sorcery stats + item 3303 ), enchanters running resolve must now start with a random 65 HP that doesn't help them pressure their opponents early.

Tank supports have it even worse. Consider an Alistar page running an Aftershock Resolve page with Triumph and Legend: Tenacity in Precision. What was once a respectable 130 HP rune bonus is now 65 HP and 9% attack speed. 9% attack speed? That's nothing compared to 65 extra hp level 1. Another example: consider a Taric running a Guardian Resolve tree page and Manaflow Band and Transcendence in Sorcery. This Taric now loses 65 HP for... 10 AP? Again, an awful trade.

"Dude, -vapes- it's like, only 65 hp. Stop overreacting and just -inhales- play league.

There are several reasons why this bothers me.

  1. Absolutely no one was complaining about the Resolve tree or its role in the preseason meta, but Rito threw this hybrid stat garbage at us anyway.
  2. These changes were made because Riot wants ressurect the "good ol' days" back when we all ran 21/0/9 and 0/21/9 masteries. We have FIVE pages to choose from now. Resolve can be a niche secondary pick and that's perfectly fine. It's 2018 lol.

But here's the big one: **These changes hurt build diversity when speccing into the Resolve tree. **One of the greatest things about these new S8 runes is that we can mix and match runes with much more freedom than we could previously. Most champs have a primary tree and keystone that's their "default" pick (Aftershock Rammus , Electrocute LeeSin , Arcane Comet Lux , etc.), but there is generally an accepted amount of player freedom when picking a secondary tree because you know that you'll get the full stat bonuses of your primary tree regardless of what you pick. **Because the HP + other core stat split happens regardless of whether Resolve is the primary or secondary tree, players speccing into Resolve will have to think long and hard about whether their jumbled stats can compete against more optimized opponents. **"Well, my Karma mid doesn't want to trade 10 starting AP for 65 HP, so I'm just gonna run a Precision secondary instead of Resolve." Or, "So my Sion top really needs to be as tanky as possible, so I have to take Resolve and Inspiration so I get my full HP bonus and not some stats I won't use past 5 minutes." These changes make it harder to spec into Resolve, not easier, and that's just terrible design. ** Here are some solutions I would like to see instead of this hybrid stat change. **

  1. **Grant an additional 30 - 40 hp bonus to champs who run Resolve as a secondary tree. ** Nothing gamebreaking, something in line with the old Veteran's Scars. A QoL health buff that says "we get it, these secondary runes kind of suck. Here, take some health along with those." This would be in addition to the FULL benefits of whatever primary tree they chose.

OR

  1. BUFF THE SECONDARY TALENTS IN RESOLVE. Make Unflinching something that would appeal to a wider variety of champs. Make Second Wind something that has a noticeable impact on laning. If Riot wants more people to use the Resolve secondary tree, they should make the secondary talents better and rebalance Resolve primary tree users accordingly.

Comments and feedback welcome. Really hoping we can get a Rioter to look at this before we get too deep into S8.

20 Comments

Salron2 votes

Yeah it also sucks for a lot of other people too I ran resolve secondary with Mirror shield and second wind on ADC vs poke lanes, but now I lose 9% AS for that Or if i'm Yasuo I now lose AS which is very important on him for capping Q CD

DODGEORLOSE1 votes

It did not "ruin" supports. It reduces the power of tank supports.

mSticky1 votes

Would you prefer "arbitrarily and accidentally weakened every primary support that doesn't rush morello's after sightstone?"

But hey man, vapes whatever you say.

Whisper871 votes

I think the change to Resolve secondary is good, and the changes to Resolve primary bad. Here's why:

  1. Enchanters like Soraka and Janna are not supposed to be oppressive in lane. They are defensive supports. The idea behind the new runes was to give people stylized play with a specific goal in mind. So if you want to play ANY support effectively in an aggressive fashion, you will have to choose to take a significant hit to defensive power. It's not an unforeseen side effect, it's an intentional change on Riot's part. They are trying to kill well-rounded "good 90% of the time" builds, in favor of allowing people to play more how they want to. I have been playing Janna at over 50% winrate since like season 2, and I have traditionally build her pure utility and defense. Last season I had 0 AP or AD in my Janna rune page and it worked just fine. Soraka and Janna should be like Tank tops, they just kind of neutralize lane, not actually win it. Soraka in particular is too reliably poking people out of lane right now IMO. Bullies like Nami, Lulu, and Karma already had more damage than the other enchanters to being with, and now Aeri gives more damage, so they don't need the extra 9AP or whatever to do their job.

  2. The change to Resolve primary is mindboggling to me. Why is Riot obsessed with giving damage to non-damage carries? All last season people bitched about tanks doing too much damage, so let's give them some AP/AD?

RIOT HAS TO START MOVING THE GAME AWAY FROM THE IDEA THAT DAMAGE IS THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE ONLY WAY FOR SOMETHING TO BE VIABLE IS TO DO GOOD DAMAGE.

Seriously, if you want tanks to be better early, make them TANKY early, not damaging. Don't give them a tool to win lane, they aren't designed for that. If anything, buff the HP from Resolve primary so it feels good to take it. I'd say remove Aftershock, and put Courage of Colossus in it's place again. Rather than giving them a tool to win lane and win trades, give them a tool to become that front line meat shield earlier with shitty damage, so they don't win lane, but rather tp bot right at lvl 6 for a team fight where they actually tank for the team. This is their identity and what they are built for, not bursting people.

If utility supports are not strong enough, buff their utility, NOT THEIR DAMAGE. If tank supports are weak, make them tankier and/or maybe buff their utility a touch too. I know I know, the casuals will bitch and moan about how annoying it is to play against really strong utility. But it's better than making the game as one dimensionally focused around damaged and aggression like it is now (which is fun in theory, but becomes boring when every game starts to feel the same).

mSticky1 votes

The idea behind the new runes was to give people stylized play with a specific goal in mind.

Yes... That's how Resolve operated BEFORE these changes, and how they still operate for every other rune page. Now speccing Resolve gives HALF HP and HALF some other stat. That's not a "specific goal", that's a divided focus. If I want AP as my laning stat, I should get AP. If I want health, then I should get health. I don't want half AP and half health, and want a full amount of a stat that I can make a playstyle around. Splitting the stat block makes playstyles less pronounced if anything.

I see what you're getting at when you talk about empowering support utility, but AP doesn't just translate into more damage on enchanters... It also means stronger slows, bigger shields/heals, and other utility scalings (MS, bonus AD from shields, bonus AS granted, etc.). Support utility scalings rise with AP - it's been that way since shortly after Nami 's release- and many supports have nutty AP ratios (Janna Soraka Rakan especially). A Janna or Soraka with 10 extra AP will have more supportive potential than one with 65 extra HP in most cases, which is especially important since both are likely starting item 3301 and won't have access to much ability power before item 3504 .

It's not an unforeseen side effect, it's an intentional change on Riot's part.They are trying to kill well-rounded "good 90% of the time" builds, in favor of allowing people to play more how they want to.

Except that isn't the point of this change. They specifically said in the patch notes that the changes were made "in order to make it a more viable secondary tree." The goal here was to make Resolve a more attractive option, not to weaken other champs already taking it as some kind of weird, roundabout balancing. If you have a warrant that proves otherwise, I'd like to see it.

Whisper871 votes

I know that's not what the intention was, but I'm saying Riot probably accepted toning down the offensive capabilities of enchanters as a side effect they can live with, and we as a community should not cry about Soraka and Janna losing lane pressure.

Here's the deal. There idea of Resolve being a "more viable secondary tree" was not to just make it better in general, but to make it better as a DEFENSIVE option. So it gives you more defense, the tradeoff is less offense. Based on their earlier posts about Runes Reforged and the philosophy behind it, I'd say they don't want you to choose Resolve secondary if you are trying to pressure lane. If you are trying to pressure lane you take a more aggressive option. Resolve secondary is more geared towards just surviving a high pressure lane. They want to make defensive farm laning viable again, at the cost of having limited lane pressure. NO MORE HAVING YOUR CAKE AND EATING IT TOO...for anyone.

I think you can see how taking Resolve second kind of helps the Targons/Overheal issue with ADC since taking Resolve second will significantly gimp their attack speed.

As to your point of AP being part of their utility as well, this ties into the point I made above about damage being too important. The damage and utility should not be tied together. What we need is avenues to choose damage or utility in sufficient power to equal that damage, not ways to have both. Like guess what? If you go for something that give you more damage, your shielding gonna be worse, or you gonna get gibbed if caught out. Like say I choose Resolve second as Janna so that if I get caught by Leona without my flash up, it doesn't guarantee my death. The trade in return for becoming tough to all in is that it's tougher to bully the lane.

I made a post before about how the obsession with damage is ruining the game. Items and runes that split damage and utility or tankiness. Remember back when ADC's or mid could take Banshees or GA (pre-reworks) as pure defensive items last? Going full damage items was considered a big risk, now full damage is standard cuz you NEED THE DAMAGE. And it was ok for you to do a little less damage cuz beefy champs did less damage too, so it wasn't a situation where you had to nuke down the front line or you were gonna die.

mSticky1 votes

I know that's not what the intention was, but I'm saying Riot probably accepted toning down the offensive capabilities of enchanters as a side effect they can live with, and we as a community should not cry about Soraka and Janna losing lane pressure.

I just can't agree with you here, not without some kind Red statement specifically addressing this issue. Riot is not an omnipotent force, ESPECIALLY regarding the support role, and have made many unintentional balancing mistakes that they have admitted to and addressed in subsequent patch notes. Based on the patch note descriptions and the lack of discussion leading up to these changes, I think it's safe to assume that Riot just forgot about support champs in this instance. Minor sidenote: Sona Janna losing lane pressure isn't the focus here, since they're rare cases of support champs having almost zero offensive pressure in lane and still "working" as viable champs..It's Lulu Nami Morgana Karma Bard Rakan Sona, all the bot lane tanks, and most every Resolve champ in the game who needs to threaten the enemy laners to be relevant in lane. Think of it this way - if the supp takes spellthief or relic shield at the start of the game, this change hurts them.

EDIT: If the recent PBE sightstone changes and statements tell us anything, it's that Riot wants supports to have even MORE gold and less deviance in their build paths from other players. They want supports to be able to rush impactful items and "feel useful" earlier, which means having big items like item 3107 and item 3190 before 20-22 minutes. The idea that Riot wants to "tone down" supports while ALSO pumping them full of gold is counterintuitive. The Riot mission statement is clear: they want supports to be BETTER, FASTER, and that's not what these changes are.

You've mentioned how you believe that there should be less damage in the game outside of the dedicated damage roles, and I might have agreed with you 6 years ago when the game was centered around meaty, immobile, low damage tanks Rammus DrMundo Chogath and squishy, high damage carries Vayne Tristana Ashe . (Vayne Taric ... The good ol' days). From your perspective, I can see how taking damage out of enchanters might be seen as a step in that direction. However, with the huge amount of damage that exists in LoL today, specifically in bot lane, all these changes do is swing even more laning power towards the damage-oriented Xerath Zyra Brand Velkoz champs. I get that the game has more damage than you would like, but a roundabout isolated nerf like this doesn't fix anything.

As for damage and utility not being tied together... This is League. You already have champs like Karma Nami Lulu Bard whose champ design falls apart if they can't bring BOTH damage and utility to the early game. Furthermore, building AP on a caster of ANY kind should feel good, that's why supports gained AP scaling in season 3. It's also what makes full AP enchanters - either bot or in solo lanes - playable (still meme-ish but playable). As far as the support role goes, building AP isn't just about damage; it's about feeling your champ grow with items and feeling important, which also means a growth in utility (i'm paraphrasing but that's pretty close to the original Riot statement). Beyond that, the item 3114 set of items already provide a unique boost to heal and shield power EXCLUSIVELY and is often the optimal build path for Enchanters anyway because of how cheap it is. When aggressive enchanters no longer have damage, we go back to the early Season 2 Janna Soraka afk farming meta with kill lanes Blitzcrank Leona trying to push them out. Or we would, if the full AP poke in bot lane now didn't exist (as mentioned above).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it seems like the League you are envisioning is very different from the League we are currently playing. If these Resolve changes push the game closer in that direction, then I understand why you support them. However, it is clear that these changes are bad for full supports in the way the game currently exists, and for that reason I can't back them.

Whisper871 votes

You are hitting everything on the head I'm talking about exactly. I'm not saying the things that happened to enchanters were intentional, I'm saying we should not complain about it as a community. Here's why:

  1. The Poke n' Push style dominates bot lane meta. We could benefit a from opening the door a little for farm lanes and kill lanes to exist in bot. I believe this change to Resolve is just impactful enough to allow all 3 types of bot lane to exist without completely nerfing poke n push out of the game.

  2. The Resolve change might suck for now, but like you said, pretty soon you will be getting your big game impact items 800g earlier after the SS changes come down. You might trade in a bit of lane pressure early, but you get GAMEWIDE impact earlier. This is a healthy and interesting trade because the point where you become a support for the whole team and not just a ADC babysitter comes earlier.

  3. I agree the change sucks for Resolve primaries, at least in the support role. Tanks want tank stats, and I don't think Alistar, Leona, Maokai need to be given more damage. Top tanks should be specialized at neutralizing lane like Maokai did before Aftershock came down. Tanks putting out high damage and pressure like Titanic Hydra on Shen just seems silly to me. Just make tanks act as tanks from the beginning, give them more durability and stop trying to give them damage. It's ok for them to be glorified meat shields. Having said that, I think there are bigger issues to tackle for tanks (like Aftershock) so keeping in mind we are going to enter a realm where tank supports can start building items 800g sooner, I think this change might be minimal.

P.S. Why can't we all just agree that having your cake and eating it too is a bad thing for LOL? You want good damage and pressure in lane? Well you're gonna have to go an offensive secondary Rune then, and you're gonna trade in some durability for that damage. You want to be durable in lane? Ok, you gotta go Resolve in one of your 2 runes, and then you're gonna trade in some damage and/or lane pressure in return for extra safety in lane. I don't see how that's not healthy...

mSticky1 votes

In an ideal world, Revitalize would just be moved to the Inspiration tree (maybe replacing Minion Dematerializer?) and there would be no complaints from either of us (outside of the 9% attack speed Alistar stuff, which we both agree is stupid). Yeah, shielding melee champs like Nautilus Skarner JarvanIV Ornn wouldn't be able to pick it up without taking Inspiration as well, but most of those champs are running Overgrowth over Revitalize anyway (if they spec'd into Resolve at all), and could still pick it up from the Inspiration tree if they really wanted it. Moving on...

If you agree with my statements, then it is safe to say that we are approaching this game from two very different angles. It seems like you want these changes to be the start of some larger movement to move damage out of noncarries, while I want what is best for supports RIGHT NOW, in the current meta we play in, which means ensuring that enchanters aren't punished in the early game for taking a rune (aka Revitalize) that was designed for them. Furthermore, I do NOT agree with your vision that damage should be removed from noncarries as a whole, nor do I believe that Riot will ever push the game back in that direction for reasons mentioned previously. Because of this, I find that your solutions suggesting that we stop complaining about these changes and hope that Riot moves LoL back into a slower, shield/farm focused "defend the carry" game unacceptable. This isn't because they're bad ideas necessarily (S2 - S4 was the most fun I've had with League), but simply because Riot has written and stated publically that this is NOT the direction they want for the game. Practical change in TODAY'S game - +10 AP on enchanters, +65 HP on Tanks - is what matters, and so I can't entertain a "sit and do nothing" solution. I'll still go through your points in order, but most of our disagreements will likely stem from these core differences.

The Poke n' Push style dominates bot lane meta. We could benefit a from opening the door a little for farm lanes and kill lanes to exist in bot.

THIS DOES NOT STOP POKE. Most of the heavy poke in bot lane comes from mages Xerath Velkoz Zyra Brand and ADCs Varus Ezreal Caitlyn Ashe MissFortune . This change hits enchanters, or champs who spec'd into Sorcery and Resolve. These changes hurt full supports; poke as a whole is unaffected. In addition, poke was already addressed with cuts to the Sorcery's flat AP buff, Scorch, and lethality items. I'm no pro player, but seeing as support champion diversity has returned to high elo queues (no more Pick/Ban Xerath ), I'd say that they were somewhat successful.

Kill lanes will exist as long as there squishies in bot lane, so they will likely continue existing (though they will be noticeably worse now they lost 65 HP for 9% AS/10 AP lul). Farm lanes, however, as we are now experiencing with the item 3302 /Overheal/Fleet Footwork spam always strafe the border between "defensive" and "disgustingly noninteractive," and Riot knows this. The only true "farm lane" supports, Janna and Soraka , were released early in LoL's lifespan and their roster has not been expanded since then. Even then, Soraka 's entire kit was reworked to force her to take more risks because she was noninteractive. Playing farm lanes isn't fun for the majority of players, and they're certainly not fun to play against. They should stay where they are, in a nice, quiet niche.

The Resolve change might suck for now, but like you said, pretty soon you will be getting your big game impact items 800g earlier after the SS changes come down. You might trade in a bit of lane pressure early, but you get GAMEWIDE impact earlier.

This is a moot point, as EVERY champ building a support item gets the same 800 gold bonus, not just enchanters. In fact, this works out even BETTER for mage supports as it lets them rush them out more AP during the laning phase where it has a significant impact. When both enchanter support and mage support have to pick up a item 2049 to defend their carries, mage supports take a larger hit because they are more reliant on that 800g to leverage their superior AP scalings. By the time the mage support can actually start building REAL AP, the laning phase is often over (or close to over) and the enchanter support's team-based utility item 3107 item 3069 item 3190 can start impacting the map. However, when both supports gain 800g earlier, the mage support is 50g off of a item 1026 while the enchanter support is returning with a item 3114 (assuming they're still rushing a team utility item). Enchanter supports may have to start building an early AP item like item 3504 to maintain relevance during the later part of the laning phase, but there's no point speculating while the new patch is in PBE.

Top tanks should be specialized at neutralizing lane like Maokai did before Aftershock came down. Tanks putting out high damage and pressure like Titanic Hydra on Shen just seems silly to me. Just make tanks act as tanks from the beginning, give them more durability and stop trying to give them damage. It's ok for them to be glorified meat shields.Having said that, I think there are bigger issues to tackle for tanks (like Aftershock) so keeping in mind we are going to enter a realm where tank supports can start building items 800g sooner, I think this change might be minimal.

This is a philosophical difference between us, as it has little to do with Resolve changes and more to do with champ interactions in general. Anyways, tanks (and all champs, for that matter) need threat, which means some combination of disruption and damage. Forget about giving tanks even more tank stats, the strongest, stupidest tanks right now (aka Ornn ) are stupid because they simply WILL NOT DIE, even with crit ADCs and hypercarries being strong at the moment. As you mentioned, a faster 800g means that support tanks will hit their first major buy considerably faster, which means beefier, scarier Leona Nautilus Alistar Taric TahmKench Braum . We'll see what happens.

It is NOT OKAY for tanks to be glorified meat shields early in the game. By design, tanks power spike in the midgame and rely on cheap defensive items and base scalings (or ability scalings that scale with defensive stats Rammus Malphite Sejuani Volibear DrMundo to control the game. Remove this midgame threat and tanks lose their power window against Fiora Tryndamere Pantheon Quinn and the rest of the damage-oriented top laners. If tanks are reduced to low pressure, afk farming "lane neutralizers" who allow their opponents to free farm and roam, their power window (and the whole reason for picking them) is unacceptably weakened. All full tanks eventually lose the ability to pressure carries in a 1v1, either because the carries have reached their core 3 item builds, the tanks have fallen behind, the carries have sufficient lifesteal item 3072 item 3153 item 3812, or some combination of the three, at which point they become team-reliant punching bags. This is fine during the later stages of the game, but should not happen early.

The champs you dislike seem to be tanks (and some fighters/juggeranuts) who build an early damage item into full tank items. These tanks are sacrificing the raw survivability and faster power spike of other tanks Sion Chogath Ornn Maokai Nautilus for stronger dueling and late game threat, and they are (and should be) rewarded appropriately. item 3078 tanks Nasus Irelia Yorick, item 3748 tanks Shen Warwick, and item 3071 juggernatus Darius Garen Illaoi exemplify this concept, and all of these tanks are much squishier than their full tank counterparts until they get their builds rolling. No one likes getting run over by a item 3748 Shen , especially not as an immobile carry, but a item 3748 Shen who falls behind will get steamrolled much more soundly by a 2-3 kill carry than a classic full tank. It hurts to be on the losing end of the match up (thanks, 0/9/1 Yasuo...), but the numbers do add up.

You want to be durable in lane? Ok, you gotta go Resolve in one of your 2 runes, and then you're gonna trade in some damage and/or lane pressure in return for extra safety in lane.

I hope I didn't make a confusing statement earlier in our post chain, but I don't think that any enchanter support really wants to be durable in lane at the expense of stronger abilities except Taric . All enchanter supports really want is Revitalize (+5% heal/shield power +10% heal/shield power if target is under 40% HP), and they grab Font of Life because it's the only other Resolve talent that works with their CC heavy kits. Considering that the majority of enchanter supports are casters, it makes no sense that Revitalize - a rune designed for them - should be gated behind a +65 HP/ -10 AP trade-off they don't want in lane.

I don't see how that's not healthy...

It's not healthy because nontraditional supports (Xerath Velkoz Brand ... you already know who I'm talking about...) DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE THE TRADE to reach their maximum laning potential. It would be healthy if ALL rune trees had this "half stat" system where you get half of your primary tree's stat and half of your secondary tree's stat, as now everyone has to consider their starting distributions when determining their secondary rune page. However, as I mentioned before. this considerably limits the number of viable secondary runes you can run on different champs and hurts player choice.

Regardless, I truly appreciate your honest feedback. Much thanks.

Whisper871 votes

I got your answers right here:

  1. Empower team fighting comps to team fight earlier so that the low damage tanks can get into team fights and do their job earlier. I'm not saying make team fighting comps hit power spikes earlier, I'm saying make it less punishing for them to leave lane so they are free to attempt team fights earlier.

  2. Make Resolve so strong that taking it tier 2 can effectively neutralize the pressure of mage supports like Brand. So the answer to Brand is not to out damage him, it's to neutralize his damage and just AFK farm your lane. Sure you won't kill him, but he won't kill you , and as long as you kind of manage your wave, you free to just farm.

Balance achieved

mSticky1 votes

I'd like to emphasize that the point of this thread is to determine whether or not the 8.1 Resolve changes should be reverted (or at least adjusted for supports), not suggest ways in which every other aspect of the game can be rebalanced around them. Doing so simply derails the thread, as we are no longer talking about the state of the game as it is, but some hypothetical game with a bunch of theorycrafted patches tacked on to it.

I don't know what that imagined League looks like, and I don't really care too much about it because it isn't real and likely never will be.

Patch 8.1 did real, quantifiable damage to supports, tanks, and a lot of other builds that dabbled in Resolve. It needs to be fixed, preferably in a way that lets Resolve be a more compelling secondary tree for everyone (such as by putting 30-40 free HP on to it). See the problem, fix the problem: that's how efficient balance works.

Without spiraling out into platitudes, I think it's pretty safe to claim that our focus should be on the present time and the present game. Gotta stay grounded, yeah?

Whisper871 votes

Well in my opinion giving defensive enchanters like Janna options that allow them to be survivable and strong lane pressure at the same time is NOT balanced.

I think the idea of Runes Reforged is to create specific styles of play based off your runes. So if you want lane pressure you build for it, if you want survivability, you build for it. In general you should not have both until items start coming through. If you buff Resolve as secondary without trading something somewhere else that creates an in balance.

I believe Runes Reforged and the current game revolves around building with specific goals and playstyles in mind, and Riot does not want well round generalist builds that give the best of each word and end up getting built 80-90% of the time.

So sometimes folks will go defensive and just try to live through lane. Sometimes they will try to pressure lane. The idea of balance under the current Runes Reforged is to create multiple viable builds. Not one build that can be played various ways.

That is not balance under the "current state of the game". No more cake and eat it too.

mSticky1 votes

We're talking ourselves in circles here.

If you buff Resolve as secondary without trading something somewhere else that creates an in balance.

Not necessarily. Riot says that Resolve isn't an appealing secondary and wants to fix it. If the goal is to make it a better secondary without impacting primary Resolve users, then buffing it directly as a secondary rune is an obvious choice. The amount of HP provided can be tapered up or down to whatever is appropriate (prob something around 30-40). Raise the amount too high and the Resolve secondary is overpowered, but leave it too low and no one takes it. Let Riot fiddle with the numbers on PBE and we'll have a solid number a patch later.

Taking power from a different rune and splitting it Resolve's HP bonus doesn't make the tree suck less as a secondary, it just makes it suck differently. That's sad for bruisers.

The idea of balance under the current Runes Reforged is to create multiple viable builds.

Giving champs multiple viable builds was a design goal when Riot created the new runes, but it is NOT how Riot currently balances them. I'll expand on this later. Regardless, I agree that keeping multiple builds viable for as many champs as possible is important. As I wrote in my OP, my BIGGEST problem with the Resolve changes is that they LIMIT the number of optimal builds available to every champ who wants to use Resolve, not just supports. If game balance was determined based on the number of viable builds the new Runes Reforged system enables, then the Resolve changes should be revoked immediately because of the scope of the champs negatively affected. Shoehorning enchanters into a Sorc/Resolve tree is a small price to pay for enabling tanks and every other Resolve user the flexible rune choices they deserve.

Riot does not want well round generalist builds that give the best of each word and end up getting built 80-90% of the time.

This is incorrect - Riot is perfectly fine with generalist builds that work in most situations. Riot stated that they wanted the new runes to appeal to as many champs as possible. However, to my knowledge, they have made no statement that specific builds becoming "standard" for certain champions is a bad thing, and no decisions to suggest such. LeeSin Khazix Rengar and other assassins will usually run an Electrocute Domination Page with Precision's Triumph and Coup de Grace. Gangplank Ezreal will almost exclusively run a Klepto Inspiration page with Sorcery's Scorch and Transcendence (?) because of how well it works on them. Jhin MissFortune used to run a standard Sorcery/Precision page almost 100% of the time before the item 3302 abuse started, will likely go back to doing so once it is nerfed next patch. Some champs like Udyr JarvanIV can build almost any combination of runes and have it work with their kit, and others don't have as much flexibility. Riot's okay with that. A build that compliments a champ well is just a good build and is not inherently broken.

Riot's rune balancing decisions (Buffing Fleet Footwork, nerfing Triumph/Coup de Grace, nerfing Sorcery bonuses, etc.) have been based on how efficiently the runes empower their core users, not the "number of available builds to X champion(s)." Even now, these current Resolve changes occurred because Riot felt that Resolve's supposed secondary users (read: Bruisers) weren't getting enough out of the rune to warrant a slot. Now that the runes are out, Riot evaluates them based on the champs who bring them into the game. They consider this to be a balanced approach, and their perspective matters.

That is not balance under the "current state of the game". No more cake and eat it too.

This "cake and eat it too" mantra is misleading and makes little sense in the current play environment. It assumes that champs Nami Lulu Sona who spec into early damage (Sorcery) and defensive utility (Font of Life/Revitalize) have some undeserved advantage over champs Xerath Velkoz Zyra who want to spec into early damage (Sorcery) and offensive utility (Triumph/Coup de Grace) assuming equal AP, and therefore deserve an accidental nerf. It assumes that supports with spec'ing into healing potential as their secondary (read: NOT PRIMARY) focus should not have a threatening presence during the laning phase. In a different, hyperpolarized League where tanks have less damage, supports do nothing but heal and peel, and the only champs who can swing the game are carries, it might be accurate...

But that world isn't real.

The current game requires parity between non-bruiser Resolve users and those who spec into other talents, which means rolling back the 8.1 Resolve changes.

Whisper871 votes

I see what you're saying, so let me boil our conversation down to a simple question/questions....

If Resolve is not desirable as a secondary stat, being that it is a defensive option, why not make it so strong DEFENSIVELY that it is a strong secondary option and eschew it's offensive options entirely (at least in terms of direct champ/minion damage, you could leave in stuff like Demolition which offers tower damage)? What is wrong with that?

What is wrong with making a character choose between lane dominance and survivability? Right now I take Resolve secondary as ADC 50% of the time or more with Fleet Footwork. When I do, it quite easily becomes a farm lane if my support is a tank or enchanter. The tradeoff is that without PTA and bonus damage out of my secondary tree kills are real hard to come by until I either get a gank or way later on after we have wittled them down with superior sustain.

Literally here is what this does: Makes all Resolve secondary users a bit tankier in exchange for losing a bit of damage. Gives resolve primary users a touch more damage in exchange for survivability. Again I know this is not their stated intention, but I think what Riot has done is effectively slow the snowball of the game. Everyone has been complaining about damage creep and snowballing.

Here are the two benefits of this change to me:

  1. Makes the farm lane a viable option bottom side again without really nerfing the other bot lane styles.
  2. Created very clear avenues of success or weakness in builds for those who would be going Resolve in either tree. These windows to deny certain styles of play and/or excel at something specific makes the game less snowbally as there are windows to exploit. (The tank support bursted you at lvl 4 for a kill? It's ok, as long as you can avoid that all in from now on you can STILL poke him out cuz he not as tanky)
dunder kill1 votes

LOLWUT? Where were you for all the threads about tanks shitting on everything with Aftershock? Level 3 Leona does more burst than an assassin. Pretty sure everyone was complaining about how oppressive shit likeLeona Alistar Ornn Maokai is.

The Enchanter complaint is laughable. Gain 65 health in exchange for sorakas heal giving 3 less health you can't be serious. Yeah hard nerfed kek. As we all know Enchanters are "aggressive" supports

mSticky1 votes

If you don't think that Lulu Nami Karma Bard Sona are aggressive, then I really don't know what to tell you.

10 AP is a noticeable difference when laning, especially against Xerath, Annie, Zyra, Brand, and other mage supports in bot lane who aren't taking Resolve and can access Sorcery's full 20 AP. If you can't meaningfully threaten a mage opponent as an enchanter support, then you will just stand there and get pooped on until you run out of mana healing/shielding and get forced out of lane. AP is a necessity to win early trades for most aggressive supports, and an inability to trade means an inability to farm for your ADC.

These advantages wash out as champs gain skill levels and gold, but every bit counts during the early game.

Whisper871 votes

Then Riot should just buff the base healing and shielding, or buff their cooldowns so you can do it more often.

If the problem is that a Brand can clap you for 160 damage at lvl 2 for example (this is not accurate I'm just choosing arbitrary numbers to make my point), the enchanter should not heal/shield for 60 and deal 100 damage. They should heal/shield for like 70-80 and deal 70-80.

In pure early game trades mages are supposed to do more damage. As an enchanter you just need to not feed that lane with the mage support. Mage supports are gambles. They have no sustain or defense so they are very susceptible to ganks and TP plays as they push in generally. And if you manage to get through early game as an enchanter without dying or otherwise getting FAR behind, your base shields and healing combined with any support items you put together will outweigh the welfare AP items they put together. Yall know that point in the game when Janna is sitting there with SS, Talisman of Ascension, and Ardent Censor and you look across the river and Zyra is sitting on just SS and Liandries.

mSticky1 votes

If Riot buffs base healing and shielding or cooldowns, it makes non-Resolve enchanter builds unusually powerful, especially in solo lanes. Everyone remembers the 5 position Lulu Top/Mid/Jungle/ADC/Support, right? Riot doesn't need to fix what isn't broken; they need to fix what they just broke this patch.

Mages already do more damage than enchanters with equivalent AP (as they should), so why exacerbate the difference by giving enchanters 33% less AP than their mage opponents level 1? If you are able to go even in the laning phase as an enchanter against a mage lane, that means that you are trading appropriately and that you have presence in the lane, both of which are directly related to AP. If you want your carry to come out even in CS in a difficult lane, you have to fight for it, and you fight with AP. Unless you are playing something absolutely awful (like Janna into Brand ), the goal of the enchanter vs. mage match up is not to sit under your turret bleeding out farm, health, and mana until someone saves you. Freezing the lane in front of your tower require that you have enough pressure to stop your opponents from shoving you in and obliterating your carry (or you) with a full spell rotation, summoner 14 , and a minion wave backing them up. This pressure is... Yep... Tied to AP.

Sure, if your support mage opponent somehow manages to not pick up any kills or assists while building full damage through the mid game, you will be ahead as an enchanter (in which case your opponent is either inting, a potato, or an inting potato). However, none of that matters in the laning phase. All that matters is your carry's farm, your tower's health, and the k/d/a ratios for all 4 players in bot lane (also Infernal Drakes, buffs brought by suiciding junglers, and other oddities). To maximize all of those, you need AP.

LuckyGnom1 votes

I am sorry, but someone needs to tell you this.

  1. First of all your statements are irrelevant due to you being silver player second season in a row. You have no idea how this game works and especially on a support role. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=MattUSticky
  2. You don't even know right runes for the champions in todays meta. Almost nobody takes Revitalize on shield supports in KR or CN. Almost nobody takes Resolve on tank supports in KR or CN. This changes has no effect on supports, because this runes aren't used for supports.

Now strike me down with furious anger, because I touched your ego, but it won't change the fact that I am operating with facts while you operate with random silver elo things.

mSticky3 votes

No problem, my ego's in a good place when it comes to friendly game discussions. Moving on:

  1. Eh, I didn't really play until the end of S7, but I won't make excuses - my rank is what it is. That said, if you have an issue with my points, you can engage with them on a point-by-point basis, not with ad hominem attacks. My arguments speak independently from my ELO, and if you took the time to read them, maybe they would speak to you too.

I'll put it another way: If a kid with Down Syndrome tells you that 2 + 3 = 5, he's not wrong. The truth is bigger than the person conveying it - that's how objective logic works.

  1. Now this is an actual argument. This post reflects the meta from when it was written (several weeks ago), and metas can change. Do you have a source for these KR/CN runes? I'd like to see if that statement about "almost no tanks running Resolve" despite Aftershock existing is more than an exaggeration.

The sources I have come from Champion.GG.

Support Tanks who run Resolve (ALL OF THEM RUN IT) http://champion.gg/champion/Taric/Support?league= http://champion.gg/champion/Leona/Support?league= http://champion.gg/champion/Alistar/Support?league= Braum, kench, etc.

Enchanters who run (still) Resolve http://champion.gg/champion/Soraka/Support?league= http://champion.gg/champion/Nami/Support?league=

Notably, Janna and Lulu show Inspiration as the most commonly-taken secondary as of NOW. When I wrote this post several weeks ago, Resolve was their most common secondary tree. If anything, this PROVES my point - Janna and Lulu have stopped taking what would be their optimal support path (Font of Life/Revitalize) for more laning presence through Inspiration's bonus AP and utility (i.e. Stopwatch). We will see if other Enchanters follow suit.

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