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A Thoughtful Post: 8.12 Nerfs Shields Without Compensation? Why wait until 8.13 to "fix" Enchanters?

mSticky··6 votes·2,703 views
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I'm a Plat support main. My Stats: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=mattusticky

TL;DR: Duration nerfs alone aren't the answer to shield spam.

The SALT (This is a joke, if that wasn't clear...):

I get it, Riot. You've heard Scarra and Hashinshin howling for support nerfs. You've just made a new assassin "support" Pyke who hasn't been popping off per your expectations. You want faster, more snowball-y games to appease the low-elo bloodthirst, but there's a particular class of champs who thwart your ambitions: the evil shielders Janna Lulu Karma. How DARE those underleveled bot lane leeches have tools to disable the almighty Yasuo Zed Talon Kassadin on their welfare incomes?! How DARE those inbred monkeys pretend to be worth more than half a champion in the League of Crabs? UNACCEPTABLE! You need an answer, something imaginative, something** J U I C Y**, and then you realize it - nerf all primary shield supports and their items item 3114 item 3107 item 3504 item 3222 into the ground.

Don't lie to us, Riot, we KNOW you hate shield supports and backline enchanters in general. That's why the last true shield support you made Lulu WAS BACK IN MARCH OF 2012 (Rakan has a heal & shields, but they're secondary mechanics to his engage/disengage potential). Beyond that, the last real backline enchanter you made was Nami back in DECEMBER OF 2012. You've been trying to grandfather this subclass out of the game for six years now, and you won't wait anymore. You've already punched out tank supports (item 3097 nerfs), you've humbled Rakan after MSI, and you've dropped the big 8.11 patch that ended season 8's "Better ADC Wins" meme. The time is NOW. KILL THE SHIELDS. #NoEGirls

The DISCUSSION

Riot wants to remove "spam shield to win" gameplay and give opponents more defined windows for counterplay, which isn't inherently bad. With 40% CDR easily accessible for all enchanters, shielding supports have their shields (and item 3504 ) on their carries with basically 100% uptime by endgame, which can feel suffocating for assassins and playmakers. I personally believe this is the justified "enchanter fantasy" for a late-game defensive support with weak offensive potential, but that's beside the point. What matters is that Riot wants more reactive play out of their shielders throughout the game, and they're hitting shield duration to do so.

**My problem is not with the shield nerfs themselves. My problem is that the nerfs come in a vacuum with no direction about where shield supports should be headed. **

For starters, there are no compensation buffs planned for shield supports alongside the duration nerfs, even the most basic one: increased shield value. If anything, Riot has decided to lower shield intensity too with the item 3114 line nerfs. **This is a mistake. ** Gutting a champ's primary mechanic without redistributing power elsewhere is usually a bad idea. Remember when Riot moved Jinx's Switcheroo (Q) mechanic to per-level scaling and she was complete ass for a whole season until they changed it back to per-rank scaling? Or maybe when Riot tried to give us a weird AoE bruiser Rengar by reworking Savagery (Q), only to revert it back after a year of negative feedback from the community? **Hitting a champ's core mechanic is guaranteed to negatively affect the champ's effectiveness and potentially alienate longtime players, and doing so without any kind of compensation is inexcusably stupid. **

Secondly, almost all shield supports have a secondary effect on their shield that will be negatively affected by the duration nerf, compounding the nerf beyond just numbers. Let's go down the list: Janna's shield grants bonus AD as long as it's up, and her kit is balanced around those values. With the shield duration decaying over 5 seconds, the amount of uptime on the bonus AD she grants her carry will be significantly reduced when her carry is fighting, as the shield will be decaying on top of the damage the carry is already taking. Karma 's shield grants bonus movements speed, and is consequently used not only for disengaging but also for engaging. In a close fight where both the pursuer and target are low health, what good is an "engaging shield" that fades the moment after you catch up to your target? The same applies to Orianna's ball. Lulu's shield moves Pix around, enabling Pix to deal damage when its target autoattacks. In the status quo, Lulu can spam shields on her carry late game allowing them to make full use of Pix's offensive bonus and her shield's defensive bonus throughout a fight, as 40% CDR means that her next shield will be available the moment her last one expires. However, if Lulu is no longer allowed to spam her shield and now must try to reactively shield an opponent's rotation, her carry is denied both Pix's extra damage and item 3504 's buff until the enemy diver makes their move. Note: All supports will struggle to get full value out of item 3504 for this reason, but Lulu especially.

POTENTIAL ALTERNATIVES:

GOALS: Preserve shield support utility while also increasing vulnerability windows for opponents.

  1. Buff the initial values of shielding supports and give them either the "decay over duration" quality or a shorter overall duration, preferably the first option for more consistent synergies with secondary effects.
  2. Rework Ardent Censer to reward clutch shielding over spam shielding.
  3. Pretty much anything over what's been suggested.

CONCLUSION

Riot, wanting to move shield supports away from sustained shielding and more towards clutch shielding is perfectly fine, but this is not how you do it. All these hard nerf/buff patches do is change what champs people play, rather than encouraging players to find new ways of playing their respective kits. By combining buffs and nerfs here, you can give skillful players a chance to distinguish themselves while keeping shield supports fun to play and play against.

Thanks for reading.

22 Comments

D357R0Y3R5 votes

Fiddlesticks riot balance team are abusing fiddlesticks who has 53% win rate and 8% pick rate

any sustain related champion that can counter his poke needs to be gutted

DODGEORLOSE2 votes

I'm also a support main. I would love to see more weaknesses for shield supports.

Killer of Night92 votes

Lulu pixie could be adress in her W too and aery with lulu W apply censar too. Karma will only lost even more identity because now she has to well use shield instead of chasing pp with 1,5s of ms. The big issue is that a bad shield is punished even more than a good shield (expecially for their secound effect). In karma case the good shield is punished as bad shield (cannot be used for engage). Also karma CD is too long with the actual shield.

Nyarlathοtep2 votes

How DARE those underleveled bot lane leeches have tools to disable the almighty on their welfare incomes?!

You do know that overshielding affects just as much pretty much everyone. Although it does hurt more assassins since they rely on burst.

can feel suffocating for assassins and playmakers.

Actually it can suffocate pretty much everyone. Trying to poke as mage only to see the target being shielding for 300 hp. Finally getting the adc low enough to be killed, only to be met by yet again another big ass shield. All that with a press of a button.

I personally believe this is the justified "enchanter fantasy" for a late-game defensive support with weak offensive potential

It would be acceptable IF they didnt have other tools. Janna might have a strong shield (with late game being on a very low cd) but she has also one the strongest disengage kits in the game, thanks to the last changes she has decent damage (for a supp) while also having a decent aoe heal. Lulu has also a strong shield (-10% ratio compared to janna's), but she also has a strong skillshot aoe slow, atk speed and movement speed buff, being able to amplify ones damage thanks to her passive (albeit by a meager amount), being able to make a single target useless (polymorph) and an ulti that will grant them bonus hp, slow enemies close to the ultied champ and knock up enemies during the enlargement.

They arent shield bots, as such if their shields were ever to become unbearable they should be nerfed.

For starters, there are no compensation buffs planned for shield supports alongside the duration nerfs, even the most basic one: increased shield value.

With their current strengths they might not need compensation buffs (maybe minus karma).

s shield moves Pix around, enabling Pix to deal damage when its target autoattacks.

I think i've read that pix will remain around for the full duration even if the shield expires

Oh also i think lux didnt get her shield nerfed because its not point and click.

mSticky4 votes

To avoid copying and pasting excessively, I've boiled down some of your main points.

  1. Opponents are supposed to feel pressured by shields - that's the penalty for ignoring a "fed" support. Traditionally, the answer to such supports is to throw a bruiser/tank at the enemy backline and force the support to use their cooldowns, then blow up whatever target isn't protected. A support who shields their carry can't shield themselves and vice versa. However, Riot has been trying to make tankless compositions more viable since the Tank nerfs earlier this year, and I suspect these changes are another part of that.

  2. You... Wrote a whole paragraph on my throwaway offhand comment? Okay... Anyways, of course shield supports have other tools, but they're still shield bots. All champs have four abilities and a passive, lol. Even so, a shield supports most important ability is, without a doubt, their shield, hence why the term "shield bot" exists at all. The "other tools" you describe in Lulu and Janna's kits exist to compliment their primary shielding mechanics, not eclipse them. The danger of a refreshing shield on a priority carry is the consistent threat that enchanters bring to teamfights, and gutting their shields essentially turns them into crappier Bard s without meep scaling (high cc, big impact ults, practically nonexistant sustain).

  3. Compensation buffs are definitely needed. Karma is losing 38% of her shield duration, and Lulu is losing 60%. On live with current shielding durations, Karma is sitting at a 47% winrate and Lulu is sitting at 50%. None of these champs are receiving increased ratios or aspects in their other abilities, so it's safe to say these numbers are going to fall if the patch goes live. Without compensation buffs, these changes will just push out Janna, Karma, and Lulu from bot lane while support players play other things that fill similar roles Nami Sona Soraka. If Riot wants Lulu, Janna, and Karma to stay relevant despite the nerfs, they will need to give players a reason to play those champs over other options. That means buffs, either to their shields or to other parts of their kit.

Killer of Night91 votes

{quoted}

To avoid copying and pasting excessively, I've boiled down some of your main points.

  1. Opponents are supposed to feel pressured by shields - that's the penalty for ignoring a "fed" support. Traditionally, the answer to such supports is to throw a bruiser/tank at the enemy backline and force the support to use their cooldowns, then blow up whatever target isn't protected. A support who shields their carry can't shield themselves and vice versa. However, Riot has been trying to make tankless compositions more viable since the Tank nerfs earlier this year, and I suspect these changes are another part of that.

  2. You... Wrote a whole paragraph on my throwaway offhand comment? Okay... Anyways, of course shield supports have other tools, but they're still shield bots. All champs have four abilities and a passive, lol. Even so, a shield supports most important ability is, without a doubt, their shield, hence why the term "shield bot" exists at all. The "other tools" you describe in Lulu and Janna's kits exist to compliment their primary shielding mechanics, not eclipse them. The danger of a refreshing shield on a priority carry is the consistent threat that enchanters bring to teamfights, and gutting their shields essentially turns them into crappier Bard s without meep scaling (high cc, big impact ults, practically nonexistant sustain).

  3. Compensation buffs are definitely needed. Karma is losing 38% of her shield duration, and Lulu is losing 60%. On live with current shielding durations, Karma is sitting at a 47% winrate and Lulu is sitting at 50%. None of these champs are receiving increased ratios or aspects in their other abilities, so it's safe to say these numbers are going to fall if the patch goes live. Without compensation buffs, these changes will just push out Janna, Karma, and Lulu from bot lane while support players play other things that fill similar roles Nami Sona Soraka. If Riot wants Lulu, Janna, and Karma to stay relevant despite the nerfs, they will need to give players a reason to play those champs over other options. That means buffs, either to their shields or to other parts of their kit.

Actually they gut alredy some %heal and shield item too which mean less lategame to shield while at same time make even more weak heal into lategame

Nyarlathοtep1 votes
  1. Focusing the supp is a valid strategy, except that the supp can shield himself, and in the meantime the enemy adc will attack you while you guys focus supp. Throwing a tank at the enemy backline is kinda difficult, and the only fighers that can consistently go to the backline, are divers.

force the support to use their cooldowns then blow up whatever target isn't protected

In theory this is awesome. But in practice it doesnt quite work because killing the adc almost always is the best option.

  1. Not really. Bard is a lot more difficult compared to janna,lulu, karma.

  2. Karma will almost surely need buffs, but janna and lulu i highly doubt. Both lulu and janna have enough strengths to not really mind the lower shield duration. And the thing is that they wont pushed out. Both of them the thing that makes them unique. Janna god like peel, and lulu the ability to make someone a harmless cricket.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Focusing the supp is a valid strategy, except that the supp can shield himself, and in the meantime the enemy adc will attack you while you guys focus supp. Throwing a tank at the enemy backline is kinda difficult, and the only fighers that can consistently go to the backline, are divers.

Because of the way Summon aery and revitalize work, when a support shields themself, they arent shielding for as much as they would a teammate.

Additionally, enchanters have some of if not the worst base defensive stats in the game. The shields actual value when put on themselves is actually trash comapred to their allies because it is being checked under shittier resistances.

Because of this, you've already lowered their effectiveness just by focusing them.

Lastly, if a support shields themself, that is your queue to switch your focus onto the ADC, mage etc who the support isnt currently shielding. You successfully baited out the shield. Go attack the person who isnt shielded.

The only way this is an issue is if you repeatedly and mindlessly ram your face into a single target hoping they die when you know that target is being shielded. Thats player error, not shields being broken.

In theory this is awesome. But in practice it doesnt quite work because killing the adc almost always is the best option.

Then maybe ADCs need to stop being such OP priority targets.

  1. Not really. Bard is a lot more difficult compared to janna,lulu, karma.

Not in his current state. His meeps do way too much damage right now.

  1. Karma will almost surely need buffs, but janna and lulu i highly doubt. Both lulu and janna have enough strengths to not really mind the lower shield duration. And the thing is that they wont pushed out. Both of them the thing that makes them unique. Janna god like peel, and lulu the ability to make someone a harmless cricket.

Considering Lulu synergizes best with crit ADCs who were just nerfed, yes she will be affected.

Janna too but she kinda needed it.

Nyarlathοtep

Lastly, if a support shields themself, that is your queue to switch your focus onto the ADC, mage etc who the support isnt currently shielding. You successfully baited out the shield. Go attack the person who isnt shielded

Here's a small problem with this. If you try to focus the supp first, you might use some abilities, as such when she shields herself yes she wont be able to do so for a while. But you dont have one or two abilities because you used them on that supp. Yes i can communicate with my team to do so, but lets be honest here, there is minimal cooperation in solo q.

Not in his currwnt state. His meeps do way too much damage right now.

Oke i wasnt as specific as i wanted to be. Compared to janna and lulu, its more difficult to use his cc. His damage yes its higher. But his cc is way more difficult to use. Both on offense and on defense.

Considering Lulu synergizes best with crit ADCs who were just nerfed, yes she will be affected.

Why so? Her atk speed helps on hit ones too.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Here's a small problem with this. If you try to focus the supp first, you might use some abilities, as such when she shields herself yes she wont be able to do so for a while.

Then you failed to properly bait the shield and the support properly timed their shield. You got outplayed. Plain and simple.

But you dont have one or two abilities because you used them on that supp. Yes i can communicate with my team to do so, but lets be honest here, there is minimal cooperation in solo q.

This isn't even remotely a valid justification.

Oke i wasnt as specific as i wanted to be. Compared to janna and lulu, its more difficult to use his cc. His damage yes its higher. But his cc is way more difficult to use. Both on offense and on defense.

I'm guessing you didn't say what you wanted to say either because Bard, unlike Lulu and Janna, has the luxury of actually being able to use his CC offensively and proactively without having to Flash into people.

Why so? Her atk speed helps on hit ones too.

eh, fair enough, but i don't see that lasting long.

Nyarlathοtep

Then you failed to properly bait the shield and the support properly timed their shield. You got outplayed. Plain and simple.

How so? I focused her (lets say im a mage) when i had the chance (lets say one of my abilities is also used), she casted her shield on herself, now i focus the adc, but since im one ability short i wont kill them (probably, it depends on a lot of stuff). Also people really have to learn to use the word outplay.

This isn't even remotely a valid justification.

It is, albeit one that cant be worked around.

I'm guessing you didn't say what you wanted to say either because Bard, unlike Lulu and Janna, has the luxury of actually being able to use his CC offensively and proactively without having to Flash into people.

Not really. His q is pretty short range wise, and his ulti is difficult to land if the enemy has eyes. Besides, why would you want to play the peel queen aggressive?

mSticky1 votes
  1. Focusing the supp is a valid strategy, except that the supp can shield himself, and in the meantime the enemy adc will attack you while you guys focus supp. Throwing a tank at the enemy backline is kinda difficult, and the only fighers that can consistently go to the backline, are divers.

Any frontliner player who deserves to gain elo can make it to the backline Irelia Sejuani Renekton Vi Zac Alistar Ornn XinZhao Jax JarvanIV . I'll put it this way, if they can't make it back there and provide the disruption and little extra damage you (as a mage) need to secure your kills, they're not playing their champs correctly.

In theory this is awesome. But in practice it doesnt quite work because killing the adc almost always is the best option.

It is... If you CAN kill the adc. Trying to "steal" an adc while the support is standing right there is a gamble. If you're super fed and/or the enemy support sucks, blast that carry and make that cuck support watch you do it. However, if you're not fed and/or the support knows how to mitigate your rotation, blowing up the enemy support before they can get multiple rotations off isn't a bad investment. You WANT the carry, obviously, but sometimes you have to take what you can get and trust that your team can win the 5v4 until your abilities come back. Think about it this way - if killing the support means that the enemy ADC has less peel/shields, they have to spend more time running from your frontline and less time shooting, which lowers their damage. Assuming your own support is halfway decent, your adc should be dealing more damage than your opponent's ADC and your team should win that fight.

  1. Not really. Bard is a lot more difficult compared to janna,lulu, karma.

Bard is also bigger than Janna/Lulu/Karma, and his lore is different, too. None of that matters. The comparison I was making was about how Bard has CC and weak sustain, not his relative champ difficulty.

  1. Karma will almost surely need buffs, but janna and lulu i highly doubt. Both lulu and janna have enough strengths to not really mind the lower shield duration. And the thing is that they wont pushed out. Both of them the thing that makes them unique. Janna god like peel, and lulu the ability to make someone a harmless cricket.

Lulu is losing 60% of her shield duration. When have you ever seen a duration nerf that severe? For comparison, Rammus's taunt was nerfed from 3s to 2.25 s and Rammus mains lost their minds. The difference between Skarner being GODLIKE and just "okay" was literally .25seconds on his E (from 1.5s stun to 1.25). 3.5 seconds is a massive reduction for a mechanic that gets value when its target takes damage in a specific window.

Nyarlathοtep

Any frontliner player who deserves to gain elo can make it to the backline

Wait what? How can alistar, sej and ornn, make it to the backline? Sej's dash is stopped on the first enemy it hits, alistar will (most likely) be too busy peeling his adc and orn has a dash that he has to use in order to knock up enemies. Tanks most of the times are better at being in the frontlines. Also jax too has a problem accessing the backline (if the enemy frontline is competent and/or has a displacement).

It is... If you CAN kill the adc. Trying to "steal" an adc while the support is standing right there is a gamble. If you're super fed and/or the enemy support sucks, blast that carry and make that cuck support watch you do it. However, if you're not fed and/or the support knows how to mitigate your rotation, blowing up the enemy support before they can get multiple rotations off isn't a bad investment

Do you even try? The supp can shield himself. And thanks to the plethora of ways to deny a kill (here's what it takes to kill lulu, you have to destroy her shield, to reach her when she has a strong slow, to have a qss to remove poly, to deal extra damage to go through her ulti and more likely than not outsustain her possible redemption). In the meantime, chances are that the enemy adc will have dealt shittons of damage during that long ass time.

Lulu is losing 60% of her shield duration. When have you ever seen a duration nerf that severe? For comparison, Rammus's taunt was nerfed from 3s to 2.25 s and Rammus mains lost their minds

There is a tiny little bit of problem with this comparison. Rammus is,a niche pick most of the times. His job is only this, taunt the enemy adc or use the taunt to peel for your adc. I mean yeah sure he is pretty durable. But since there is no aggro on a pvp game, his durability is kinda wasted. Other than that, his rest of his kit is pretty shitty. His q is a channel, his w slows him and his ulti is useless unless you hug them.

On the other hand lulu can still slow enemies, polymorph enemies, shield her teammates when she has to, give buffs to her allies, and ofc even more peel thanks to her ulti.

Skarner well, the reason he became so strong was because his e could (and still can) affect multiple enemies, and since every proc lowers the cd of e, its only natural it will become so strong even with a .25 sec.

Oleandervine1 votes

Instead of just flat nerfing shields, they could, you know, give them mechanics like Taric's Q, which rewards you with a more powerful heal if you're not spamming Q.

Janna could gain stacks to empower her shield per tornados she hits or when Zephyr damages an enemy. Lulu could gain stacks to empower her shield whenever Pix strikes a new enemy during an auto. Karma could simply go back to having a large shield bomb if she's going have her shield gutted, because her Mantra Shield Bomb was a fun mechanic (and NOT what Ivern has, btw. Ivern's shield is more like Sion's, the damage wasn't on cast like Karma had).

There are ways to make shields less oppressive without wholesale genocide to the shield enchanter class as a whole.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Support main here. The only champion whose buff on Shield is getting hit is Janna since the buff durations on those spells are seperate from the shield itself.

Janna needs the nerf tho, and this change will encourage more proactive gameplay from her as it rewards her for protecting Shielded allies do they can maximise the AD from the shield.

Also, applying ardent buff is the same in this regard. It has its own duration.

I do think nerfing the item 3114 items is pretty overkill tho, but hitting durations is the right direction imo.

I do think compensations are in order, especially given the item hit. Peoplw have been complaining that supports have been to item defined as opposed to kit defined, similat to duskblade and assassins as is, so assuming compensations are gonna happen, im fine with these changes going through.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

A lot of your assumptions here are flawed.

Gutting a champ's primary mechanic without redistributing power elsewhere is usually a bad idea.

For which champ is this true? Shield is Ori's primary mechanic? Lulu doesn't max Q in lane? Janna's is, but she has the lightest nerf and has also been a top tier support for 3 seasons in a row! She needs a nerf!

you want faster, more snowball-y

Meddler directly addressed this in a post yesterday and said fixing snowball was a top priority. So this is just wrong.

I personally believe this is the justified "enchanter fantasy" for a late-game defensive support with weak offensive potential

Again, none of these champs classify as having "weak offensive potential." Even Janna does pretty good damage with Aery and W now. Having 100% shield uptime is the definition of no skill expression; I respect your opinion, but I think it's actually really bad for balance. This just means that assassins and carries have to have even more damage, and it starts an arms race with shields and damage trying to balance the two. That's exactly what we've seen, so hitting the uptime is a great solution.

Secondly, almost all shield supports have a secondary effect on their shield that will be negatively affected by the duration nerf, compounding the nerf beyond just numbers

Also wrong, I think, but I'm willing to be corrected. Every post I've read says the secondary effects for Lulu, Karma, and Ori are unaffected. Only Janna's will be, and again, that's why she's getting the lightest nerf.

If the basis for your logic were all true, I might agree, but as I've pointed out, a lot of your key assertions simply aren't true.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Lulu doesn't max Q in lane?

No. Lulu hasnt maxed Q in lane since season 4. Dunno what rock you have been living under.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

According to the data (http://na.op.gg/champion/lulu/statistics/support),

She only gets a 1-2% drop in win rate for maxing W or Q instead of E. So, while correct, it's not a terrible thing for her to max Q. She certainly can, and probably will after these changes and be mostly fine.

And if she needs compensation buffs, maybe we can talk about a slightly bigger shield instead of more uptime, to further reward good E play? 100% uptime shields are still pretty bad for game health.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

According to the data (http://na.op.gg/champion/lulu/statistics/support),

She only gets a 1-2% drop in win rate for maxing W or Q instead of E. So, while correct, it's not a terrible thing for her to max Q. She certainly can, and probably will after these changes and be mostly fine.

Nah, she will still max E. The reason maxing E is best is because Lulu's E has an offensive and defensive option to it and by Maxing E, you get the most out of the spell at that point in the game.

Lulu' wont start maxing Q until they actually give you a reason to max it beyond its incredibly crappy base damage. I Miss the Scalings on the slow so much. :/

And if she needs compensation buffs, maybe we can talk about a slightly bigger shield instead of more uptime, to further reward good E play? 100% uptime shields are still pretty bad for game health.

Oh im not against the duration nerfs, but Lulu was clearly hit by it hardest out of all the enchanters. On top of the Forbidden Idol item nerfs, compensations are definitely in order.

I don't think her E need to be compensated at all. I'd prefer she be compensated in other areas (cough Q cough)

Maybe a mini rework that gives her more proactive offensive options? Still bothers me how her passive has no purpose outside of damage.

I had an idea where Lulu's Pix bolts could put a debuff on targets that get hit by enough of them, and Lulu's Damaging Spells could consume them to for a debilitating affect (shrinking enemies maybe? idk).

One of the things people bitch about mlulu right now is saying she just stays back and plays cockblock, but part of that is she really isn't encouraged to play aggressively anymore (doesn't stop me from doing so anyway tho [sg-lulu].

But I'm just rambling on at this point.

mSticky1 votes

I'm not sure whether you're intentionally misconstruing my points for the sake of your argument or whether you actually misunderstand my topic. I'll try to clarify regardless.

  1. Huh? Gutting (not just nerfing) a champ's primary mechanic without compensation is usually a bad idea for **every champ in the game, ** not just supports (see my examples, Rengar Jinx). Could you explain what you find disagreeable about that statement? Aside from obvious balance concerns, gutting a champ's primary mechanic without compensation risks obliterating that champ's identity. What's Vayne without her tumble and silver bolts? Chogath without his Feast and size growth? Teemo without his Shrooms and poison? Thresh without his... Everything (lol). Shielding is the primary mechanic for support Janna Lulu Karma, and their kits and playstyles are built around situationally buffing allies/debuffing enemies as their shielded carry outgrinds their opposition. I've recommended that all shields have more power early on and less later in some form, a point that you've mentioned that you agree with in your replies with ChaddyFantome. This is most definitely a type of compensation, and I'm glad we're on the same page. Lastly, you're right, shielding isn't Orianna 's primary mechanic, but frankly she shouldn't be on this chopping block to begin with. Balling an ally has the opportunity cost of not positioning it aggressively for zoning potential. Her shield isn't as "free" as the others mentioned.

1a) Janna's nerf is a SIGNIFICANT reduction in her shield and bonus AD duration from her live values. It is by no means "light," only less harsh than Lulu's 60% uncompensated shield duration reduction.

  1. This statement was part of my biased rant that was intentionally sectioned off to separate it from the ACTUAL post. It's my gut emotional response to the state of the game that's clearly exaggerated. That's why it's called "THE SALT."

  2. The rest of that quoted segment is literally "but that's beside the point." Why did you leave that out? Are you trying to derail the thread from the following analysis? I listed my opinion to fully disclose my predilections, but you made it sound as though I am advocating that shield supports remain as they are with 100% shield time at full strength. Why? I listed in the "Potential Alternatives" section that this is clearly not my recommendation for Riot or the game. Why did you leave those points unaddressed?

3a) An "arms race" between supports and assassins? What?... The S8 (and in years prior) have generally adjusted lethality and assassin base stats. If anything, the "arms race" is between assassins and the carry's base armor/ninja tabi, with both sides taking nerfs from their S7 values.

  1. I have an entire segment about why Karma Lulu have their secondary effects weakened by duration nerfs (inconsistent engage shield and Pix/Ardent upkeep, respectively). My argument is that it is more difficult for allies to use a shield's secondary effects when the shield itself is shorter, which makes this nerf bigger than what it appears to be. I think this might just be a misunderstanding between us.

Ultimately, you decided to reject my argument because you found my "key assertions" to be untrue. As I've pointed out, two (points 2 and 3) of the "assertions" you found were throwaway or disclaimer statements, one of them (point 4) is a misrepresentation of my argument, and one of them (point 1) is a disagreement where I sincerely struggle to understand where you are coming from. **Regardless, nothing you've said comments on my Potential Alternatives or my concluding argument, which is where the whole point of this topic (and my argumentation) lies. **After reading this, I hope that you will reconsider your position and give my topic a fair reevaluation.

P.S. Kemp, you're a respected commenter and I'm glad you took the time to reply here, but I have to ask: **do you actually play Karma Lulu Janna Orianna ? **A lot of your comments about their respective kits (ex. "none of these champs classify as having 'weak offensive potential,'" Lulu maxing Q, unusual response to secondary effects, etc.) are just... Odd, to the point where it seems as though you are talking about a completely different set of champions than I am. When I check what is presumably your account, (http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=kempyreanpirate), ** I find that you've played no more than two games of Lulu and Janna each for two seasons, **and that you haven't played Karma or Orianna at all across that same duration. I respect your opinion, but it's difficult for me to trust your analysis of these champions when they a) don't match conventional opinions and b) aren't supported by your play record.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Definitely my analysis is not that of a champ main of any of these. You're right about that.

It's also definitely an issue for me to understand exactly what your key points are. I'll cop to that. That's a pretty large text wall up there, in my defense.

Nevertheless, I'd like to see how these nerfs work out. The key point of my argument (and, I think, Riot's "argument") is that 100% shield uptime is just bad for balance. That's why it's the biggest chunk of my reply.

You make some decent points, but they don't defend having long duration shields in the game, fundamentally. These are definitely nerfs to these champs, you're right. I think the big question is how big, and it's hard to know that without pushing them to live. Riot doesn't like to make balance moves without data. Comp buffs, in this scenario, fall into that category.

It's gonna suck if you're a Janna/Lulu/Karma main. The only one of those I actually feel very sorry for are the Karma mains. If you're a Janna main, especially, you've enjoyed a VERY strong champion for possibly the longest stretch of any champ in the game. It's time to end that dominance. And I really do believe that comp buffs will come; I think it would be smart for Riot to assign someone to be looking at that as soon at this patch hits live. Nevertheless, these nerfs are good for the game. For these champ mains? Definitely not. But every champ goes through periods like this, for one reason or another.

The only thing that would change my mind is convincing me that these long, long shields are somehow good for game health.

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