@Riot Do you guys remember why Nidalee was reworked? Let me remind you

NA Darklarik··6 votes·964 views

. Patch 4.10

> With her oppressively high spearZoe damage and catlike (maybe just cat-ish) elusivenessZoe , Nidalee's been a contentious low-risk, low-interaction championZoe for quite some time. Specifically, old Nidalee's gameplay often revolved around the question of "when should I stop throwing spears?"Zoe to which the answer was typically "never." > > To that end, our goals with this Nidalee gameplay update are to tone down some of her many frustration Zoe Zoe Zoe points while also giving her more **options other than chucking projectiles. ** We also saw this as a great opportunity to cement Nidalee as a real shapeshifting huntress, which meant stronger ties from her human form to her cougar form. Additionally, by connecting Nidalee's offense with cougar form, she now has to balance her high escape potential against her ability to hunt down squishy targets ("Leap away or leap at their face?"). There's certainly more counterplay (and teamplay for those playing around Nidalee engages) when a cougar goes flying into the backline versus a single nuclear-tipped spear Zoe Zoe Zoe Zoe Zoe

So if this playstyle was so toxic you removed it, why did you remake it 5x more toxicly a few years later, give it a 3 second 70% speed boost, the longest CC in the game, and even MORE damage to its primary **AOE **Poke ability?

And then the boards complain like they do with Aatrox about how Riot "Well why dont you keep the playstyle and/or just make a new champion" This is what that looks like.

13 Comments

Jamaree4 votes

Zoe isn't really elusive though compared to old Nidalee, sure, Zoe will get a flash every once in a while on her W and a movement speed increase with her passive, but that is nothing compared to the low cd flash like ability and constant ms increase in Nidalee's kit. On top of the fact that Nidalee's Q had far less set up to do its nuclear damage compared to having to rally her Q back then forward to do damage.

NA Darklarik1 votes

{quoted}

Zoe isn't really elusive though compared to old Nidalee, sure, Zoe will get a flash every once in a while on her W and a movement speed increase with her passive, but that is nothing compared to the low cd flash like ability and constant ms increase in Nidalee's kit. On top of the fact that Nidalee's Q had far less set up to do its nuclear damage compared to having to rally her Q back then forward to do damage.

Actually no. You can still do the same as Nidalee, just chuck Paddle star after paddle star, it even works the same way as old spears, the long it travels the more it hits. Only now, it goes faster, hits in AOE, and travels farther

The difference isnt that it requires more setup, but rather that SHE HAS MORE TOOLS TO SET UP A NUCLEAR POKE. Nidalee did not have a mile long 2.5 second CC ability. Nidalee did not really have a specifically placed Mini dash to help Up her Q damage.

She doesnt require more setup, i even linked some 1 shots where it was just the Q. The difference is she now has tool TO Set it up, making it 10x worse.

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TotvPmsj,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-25T19:00:38.780+0000)

I'm not defending Zoe (imo she shouldn't even have been released), it's just old Nidalee was actually uninteractive. You poked her, she healed the damage with a ridiculous AP ratio, she hit a spear, she took easily 80% of your hp and had to force you to go back. She barely used her cougar form, only to execute or waveclear or run away, most of the time she just hid in the fog of war spamming nukes Q

I dont see how Zoe is any different save for not having an On demand Heal she now has an On demand CC that if it connects, your cuked.

Oleandervine1 votes

Old Nidalee also didn't have hard CC, like Zoe's E, and Zoe also has a "flash like ability" in her R, which is an excessively low CD, as well as movement speed bursts when she activates summoners or her W. I think the two are very comparable.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Zoe's ult doesn't let her actually go anywhere.

Nidalee's jump does.

Oleandervine1 votes

That doesn't make it any less flash like.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

It kinda does.

Zoe can't escape if you're on her. If she hops over a wall, she's right back into you for CC and death.

For Nidalee? She can lead you on a merry chase as she hops over nearly every wall in the jungle.

Oleandervine1 votes

"Flash like" doesn't mean it is Flash. Just because Zoe's got a limited version of it, doesn't mean it doesn't offer her a lot of the options that flash does, and on a much shorter cooldown. Zoe can use her R to engage and extend her range, as well as sneak up on people hiding behind terrain with her R, much like you can engaging with Flash (Annie, for examples, uses it to extend her range with a Tibbers stun). It can't be used to escape, sure, but it's still very much usable in many scenarios where you'd want to use Flash.

And lest we forget, Zoe can legitimately get access to a second Flash with her W. So...

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Old Nidalee also didn't have hard CC like Zoe's E,

Indeed, but having hard CC wasn't what made Old Nidalee a problem.

and Zoe also has a "flash like ability" in her R, which is an excessively low CD

That puts her EXACTLY right back where she was. "Oh, I'm being chased, have to run, R!!!! Oh and I'm back where to where I was and dead."

as well as movement speed bursts when she activates summoners or her W. I think the two are very comparable.

Yes, burst, not a constant at all times MS increase with a flash like ability. Old Nidalee built CDR so she had a flash up every 3.6 seconds along with a constant MS increase.

Beatrice falls2 votes

I'm not defending Zoe (imo she shouldn't even have been released), it's just old Nidalee was actually uninteractive. You poked her, she healed the damage with a ridiculous AP ratio, she hit a spear, she took easily 80% of your hp and had to force you to go back. She barely used her cougar form, only to execute or waveclear or run away, most of the time she just hid in the fog of war spamming nukes Q

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

Nidalee was not reworked for only her spear nuke.

As others have said, it was having that nuke one top of having a strong heal and top tier actual mobility.

Stop making false comparisons.

NA Darklarik1 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TotvPmsj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-25T19:12:04.095+0000)

Nidalee was not reworked for only her spear nuke.

As others have said, it was having that nuke one top of having a strong heal and top tier actual mobility.

Stop making false comparisons.

No, just because the exact nature of the abilities sightly differ doesn't mean they dont produce the same effect, the underlining reason was because she had low interaction, like zoe, and high poke, like zoe, combined with high safety, like zoe.

Zoe is an extremely safe champion, with an Easy to hit E that stuns you for ages. And she has multiple ways to trigger W be it from spells or from items too. Literally the only champion who gains power from YOU using one of YOUR abilities. No interacion, just free power from the enemy. Champions who "gain" something from the enemy casting something actually have to work for it.

Nocturne and Sivir have to time precisely withing 1.5 seconds to get the boosts from their shields. Fiora Has to time and AIM her W withing a .75 window in order for it to be effective.

Zoe is the only champ who by doing NOTHING gains a MASSIVE offensive and Defensive boost from one of **YOUR **abilities. It is literally a situation of "I cant use one of my power moments or else ill give her a huge power moment". No interaction, just straight up garbage gameplay design.

Name me ANY champion that forces you to hold off on entire abilities or items INDEFINITELY, with no window of use, because you will give her massive power spike

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

No, just because the exact nature of the abilities sightly differ doesn't mean they dont produce the same effect

They don't slightly differ.

The ENTIRE point of why Nidalee was reworked was not for just being a ranged nuke. Lots of champions have ranged nuke abilities. That's not what made Nidalee un-interactive.

The problem was that if you got to her, all she had to do was turn to cougar form, hop away, then transform back and heal herself. If you landed some poke on her: heal. If she took an unfavorable trade: back up and heal.

There was nothing you could do about it.

Zoe may have CC yes, but that pales to what old Nidalee was.

Summonah123691 votes

Cus her old model was fugly.

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