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Duskblade is literally causing the same problems Deathfire's grasp did, yet it still exists.

NA Darklarik··114 votes·20,805 views

Title.

Patch 5.2 "well get into the gritty details soon (well, immediately after this foreword), but the short of it is that DFG has always been a tough item to balance around and, like Lich Bane, we finally realized if we wanted to have healthy mage assassins in the game, we needed to tackle the problem at its source. Ultimately we came to the decision to remove DFG completely (remember, read the context for more information!), but this also frees us up to give cool things for champions who've been shackled by their reliance on the item (or by our fear of them picking one up). "

  • Most assassins are reliant on this item MAKING them an assassin, to the point that some champions who even have no buisness being an assassin (hello JarvanIV , or remember when it became meta to build this on Jhin ?) are able to become one via this item.
  • Further evidence of this is the fact that whenever there are Duskblade changes/nerfs, Assassins are adjusted or meta build paths on certain champions get changed.
  • This item is just doing the damn same thing, making assassins burst faster instead of actually relying on their abilities or combos.

Just think how many assassins would be gutten powerwise by the removal of this item, and you know you have a problem. I can accept keeping the passive "unseen" ward destroying effect, but the rest of this item just needs to GO .

120 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelous21 votes

Few things:

  • Duskblade is reliant on making a champion an assassin!

Fair deal. DFG, however, wasn't reliant on making a champion an ap assassin. In fact, you could build it on most anyone. It was a sizeable chunk and increased magic damage they took for a brief time. Burst mages, dot mages, pretty much the only mage who didn't want it was waveclear/aoe mages but even then you could slip it in. Duskblade might make assassins stronger but it's not universally loved to the degree DFG was.

  • Duskblade functions the same as DFG!

Not quite. DFG was a point-and-click nuke/debuff that could be applied...whenever. Duskblade works the best on kits that leap out from vision and nuke your face off. It's not an item you can hold onto and stock like you could DFG. You actively have to engage once you're spotted.

Instead of removing duskblade, we should introduce a new item to help assassin characters who may not want to leap from the shadows. Why not have an item that gives you a damage bonus when your target is surrounded by allies? Why not give assassins some sort of disruptor item that breaks shields/buffs on a target? Duskblade is interesting and it shouldn't be removed (nor does it have the same issues DFG had) but there's a LOT of room for more items for assassins to benefit from.

ChuShoe12 votes

{quoted}

Instead of removing duskblade, we should introduce a new item to help assassin characters who may not want to leap from the shadows. Why not have an item that gives you a damage bonus when your target is surrounded by allies?

Hi, I'm a silver/unranked noob here. I probably have no business talking about balance, but an item that let's assassins dive into a team sounds kinda broken.

Auz the Ripper3 votes

It could work, if it gave like a small % damage bonus to the assassin for each champion in their immediate area beyond the first. It would give more incentive to have multiple sources of DPS in a team and make peeling more important/relevant as opposed to just shielding and healing the target blindly.

ChuShoe3 votes

Ah, I see. Cause like, I could definitely see zed abusing it, or any assassin that can pull off some aoe damage, even if they have to be in melee range to do it.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

yeah would buff every non assassins along Illaoi Darius

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Depends on how it's implemented. No item should completely circumvent a weakness but either provide a window to remove the weakness or give a tool to soften the weakness.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

we should introduce a new item to help assassin characters who may not want to leap from the shadows.

they're no AD assassins who may not want to operate from shadow from Khazix to Talon

Duskblade is interesting and it shouldn't be removed (nor does it have the same issues DFG had) but there's a LOT of room for more items for assassins to benefit from.

Agree... they can remove burst thing, and should buff/change EoN or/and add another assassin item.

Why not have an item that gives you a damage bonus when your target is surrounded by allies?

bruiser item

FrostQueensPlane19 votes

except dfg didn't remove wards

think about that

you now have champions who abuse invisibility, who have more burst than dfg could've ever dreamed of, who can't even be warded against

riot doesn't learn

Ok sure but why15 votes

Yeah, the same thing can be said with item 3078, being a must-have for a certain champion class just to not be left behind as everyone else abuses its strong passive

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

I don't mind the item itself but the +5% movement speed you get from it makes no sense. Looking at the build path, there's not a single item that gives that bonus +5% movement speed.

Anyway going back to the topic, I think that they should just remove the synergy between Trinity and Sterak's.

Pokemonred20010 votes

It's probably still there because of the item 3044 component giving MS from rage, so Riot didn't feel like it was needed to remove the 5% movement speed after they changed it to upgrade from item 3101 instead of item 3086. Not 100% sure.

Ok sure but why3 votes

I think they should remove the synergy between Trinity and the auto-reset bruiser champs with 100+ base AD!

I'd have a MUCH less annoying time putting up with Illaoi Yorick Darius Garen Gangplank Nasus Camille if they weren't dealing an extra 300 damage every 1.5 seconds and then going full tank afterwards, simply because Trinity Force is all the damage they need. Sterak's is merely adding on to the problem.

Tahminatrix 10 votes

Then Skarner would be completely useless lategame outside of his R.

That's literally the only thing he is aiming to get because at lvl 18 he has the 2nd most base ad in the game by FAR the only other champion that he falls short of is Mordekaiser

Its the majority of his damage.

Most of the champions that work well with trinity force are doing so because RIOT DESIGNED THEM TO

If riot didn't want those champions to do so well with item 3078 they would replace some of their base ad with bonus ad and reduce the base damage on their abilities by a small amount to make up for the bonus ad.

Although Darius is a unique case because he still likes the cdr movement speed hp and attack speed to apply his passive without needing to land anything.

and Camille ...well they are gonna have to rework her q if they didn't want her to use trinity...a lot of champions are designed around the items and not the other way around.

bobyjhon1322 votes

I am unaware as to the planar existence you reside but in this one Darius' phage item should be BCitem 3071 99.9% of the time. I don't know why you'd build item 3078 but I won't discount it because it's not stupid, just silly

Mordepool1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fG0oUcr8,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-29T21:26:43.065+0000)

Then Skarner would be completely useless lategame outside of his R.

That's literally the only thing he is aiming to get because at lvl 18 he has the 2nd most base ad in the game by FAR the only other champion that he falls short of is Mordekaiser

Just an FYI Morde has the lowest Base AD of all Juggernauts now. I'm not sure where he stacks up vs skarner ( since he's not a Juggernaut)

Tahminatrix 2 votes

{quoted}

Just an FYI Morde has the lowest Base AD of all Juggernauts now. I'm not sure where he stacks up vs skarner ( since he's not a Juggernaut)

Since when? He had the most at lvl 18

Mordepool1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fG0oUcr8,comment-id=000100000001000000020000,timestamp=2018-04-30T20:22:15.179+0000)

Since when? He had the most at lvl 18

Preseason. Everyone of the Juggernauts got. AD boost. Morde didn't

Tahminatrix 1 votes

{quoted}

Preseason. Everyone of the Juggernauts got. AD boost. Morde didn't

Must be a HUGE boost then because morde has over 200 base ad at lvl 18.

Mordepool1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fG0oUcr8,comment-id=00010000000100000002000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-02T21:28:31.047+0000)

Must be a HUGE boost then because morde has over 200 base ad at lvl 18.

61 + 5 per LVL. Is 151 Base AD @18. I have no idea where you get your information from.

Tahminatrix 1 votes

{quoted}

61 + 5 per LVL. Is 151 Base AD @18. I have no idea where you get your information from.

That's strange, I recall getting over 200 before I bought sterak`s... ;-; o well

Ok sure but why2 votes

And I make this into a post of my own and it gets downvoted

smh these boards

BBW Chaser11 votes

Lets compare the 2 items so you can see how what you say it make no sense

+120 ability power +10% cooldown reduction Active UNIQUE: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage and applies the debuff, Doom. Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds. 90 second cooldown (750 range).

120 ability power one of the stronger amount of AP you can get behind Rabadons death cap.. 10%CDR a much needed thing for mages

Damage 15% OF THE TARGET MAXIMUM health as magic damage and can be used from 750 RANGE! And it was making any damage you deal to that target 20% stronger

Meaning that you can deal 300 magic damage from 750 range on an ADC with 2000k hp (fruther increase with more hp they were having) and increase your damage to deal to them by 20%

So overall you could deal over 1000 extra damage with that item from 750 range...

Now lets see duskblade

55 AD medium amount of AD weaker than DFG 10%cdr same as DFG

Range=125 (If we talk about assasins) FLAT damage 30-200 cant go more than that

that it...that duskblade..

so you compare 200 damage vs 1000+++ from dfg..pls gtfo...

And if we go even in more deep lets add tabi that cuts 24 damage just from the 12% passive block Yeah i guess they have the same power huh?

That why i love math cause it prove how dumb thing some people say

Ahri Body Pillow33 votes

You have a tenuous grasp on not only mathematics and statistics, but on the english language in general as well.

The point is that the item is making champions into assassins that are not meant to be assassins. IE Jarvan. Deathfire Grasp had a similar issue, with champions like Syndra and Veigar taking it to just one shot people with their ultimates.

AmazoX3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Body Pillow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fG0oUcr8,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2018-04-30T02:28:58.782+0000)

You have a tenuous grasp on not only mathematics and statistics, but on the english language in general as well.

The point is that the item is making champions into assassins that are not meant to be assassins. IE Jarvan. Deathfire Grasp had a similar issue, with champions like Syndra and Veigar taking it to just one shot people with their ultimates.

It's always the Assassin items that get abused by other classes the most, this is why duskblade should be removed and AD Assassins should get compensation buff(s) into their kits.

Bob the Toastr3 votes

Lol it's the assassin items that get abused the most?? Have you heard of support items lol? Support items on junglers, knight's vow and locket on toplaners, sightstone on lee sin and jax, relic shield on ADC's, support items on solo laners, need I go on lol?

Oleandervine13 votes

It's one things to debate this person's math skills, but you can CLEARLY see they're from EUNE, which very likely means English is NOT their primary language. No need to be so cruel or ignorant.

Ahri Body Pillow4 votes

Don't know why people are downvoting you, you're right. Normally this is my own philosophy as well, but because the town of the post was so negative and condescending i just went for it.

Jet Sett1 votes

Hey, you bring it on yourself when you decide to be a jerk in a foreign language. Don't call people or their ideas/opinions dumb in a language you have trouble pulling off grammatically unless the lure of the act's irony is truly that appealing to you.

Battalion1 votes

I agree, pieprzony arogancki drań.

Jet Sett1 votes

See? That's how you insult someone.

Blackstone0110 votes

If we go even more deep let’s consider the fact that:

Duskblade’s 55 AD scales 1 for 1 on all basic attacks, with varying AD scalings on abilities. So the 55 AD vs 120 AP isn’t as massive as it may seem like, especially that’s at the time few mages had an ability that scaled 1 for 1, on top of being in an age where it was common for mages that weren’t Veigar to end with 700+ AP.

Tabi DOESN’T apply to the bonus damage. Tabi’s passive ONLY applies on auto attack damage alone, not bonus damage from the passive.

Duskblade has no cooldown on its nightstalker passive, instead a 1 second “prep” time of being unseen, with 5 seconds to then apply it, so it’s up a LOT more than DFG was. So you’re doing a shit comparison between a single use of DFG and a single use of Duskblade.

Duskblade also comes with some juicy flat armor pen, the exact thing you need to shred into those ADCs.

A minor thing, but with DFG you at LEAST had to hit a button. Duskblade is allllllll passive.

The range issue is negligible for most of the users, since its intended audience (assassins) come with some sort of gap closer.

Duskblade is overall a fuck ton more versatile than DFG was.

Don’t take the magical high ground where you pull numbers out your ass to make it seem like Duskblade is healthier than DFG. Both of them are/were crutches that specific champions relied too heavily on to further amplify their kit in a linear fashion, being balanced around it. Where the difference is, is that only mages (and fucky builds like DFGaren) used DFG; Duskblade all the AD assassins use it and when it’s strong the meta ADCs abuse the fuck out of it.

BBW Chaser2 votes

{quoted}

If we go even more deep let’s consider the fact that:

Duskblade’s 55 AD scales 1 for 1 on all basic attacks, with varying AD scalings on abilities. So the 55 AD vs 120 AP isn’t as massive as it may seem like, especially that’s at the time few mages had an ability that scaled 1 for 1, on top of being in an age where it was common for mages that weren’t Veigar to end with 700+ AP.

Tabi DOESN’T apply to the bonus damage. Tabi’s passive ONLY applies on auto attack damage alone, not bonus damage from the passive.

Duskblade has no cooldown on its nightstalker passive, instead a 1 second “prep” time of being unseen, with 5 seconds to then apply it, so it’s up a LOT more than DFG was. So you’re doing a shit comparison between a single use of DFG and a single use of Duskblade.

Duskblade also comes with some juicy flat armor pen, the exact thing you need to shred into those ADCs.

A minor thing, but with DFG you at LEAST had to hit a button. Duskblade is allllllll passive.

The range issue is negligible for most of the users, since its intended audience (assassins) come with some sort of gap closer.

Duskblade is overall a fuck ton more versatile than DFG was.

Don’t take the magical high ground where you pull numbers out your ass to make it seem like Duskblade is healthier than DFG. Both of them are/were crutches that specific champions relied too heavily on to further amplify their kit in a linear fashion, being balanced around it. Where the difference is, is that only mages (and fucky builds like DFGaren) used DFG; Duskblade all the AD assassins use it and when it’s strong the meta ADCs abuse the fuck out of it.

The MAX amount of AD you can get on an assasin is like 400...so even if you go 1 for 1 its 400 +200 damage FLAT

While the max Amount of AP you can get on any champion you want is 1100! and you are right not all mages have 100% AP ratio but when you deal with an ability 400 magic damage +700 (from your bonus AP)=1100 damage now add the extra 20% from DFG=1320 now add the 15% Max hp damage on a minimum 2k HP ADC=1520 damage BURST...

Now lets compare the numbers again 1520 vs 600.....

What is stronger again? oh that right...

Now lets talk about Tabi cause you have no idea what you talk about

TABI REDUCE 12% OF AA

DUSKBLADE MAKE YOUR NEXT AA DEAL 200 EXTRA DAMAGE SO IT REDUCE THE DAMAGE FROM THAT AA so you remember the 600 damage we talked about? yeah remove 12% we drop at 528...

So lets compare again 1520 vs 528....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

What is stronger again? oh that right

Now lets talk about the "Cooldown"

Lets say we have KHA with 3 stealths from his ulti he would need to proc every single time he ulti duskblade just to overcome by 50 extra damage the damage from DFG

3X528=1584 so in order the best abuser of Duskblade to deal 1584 damage with a full AD items he would need 4-6 seconds in order to do that damage

While any mage can just Press 2 buttons (R+1 FOR DFG) and unlease 1520 damage in 0.5 seconds...you do the math!

6 seconds vs 0.5 seconds!!

Duskblade may be a passive bust most of the times you need to ether enter a bush and wait there for 1 second to activate the passive or press an ability to become stealthed...

So its the same thing..cause if you need more than 1 second to press the DFG button...that another problem...

the range mean nothing? 720 range? ???

The best Gap closer that comes from REngar is 600 range LEAP and i think i am not sure 700 is kha...but i am not sure cause i think it got nerfed a while ago..

So the range of dfg is STILL BETTER THAN THE BEST GAP CLOSER ABILITY IN THE GAME....pls dont ever reply to me cause you have no idea what range and how powerful it is...cause god damn that why riot ignore boards....cause people like you that have no idea about the game or the game mechanics..

My god i pity the rioters that have to deal with people like you

Blackstone016 votes

  1. Not even going to bother with your rage induced ass pulling of numbers.

  2. Read Tabi’s and Duskblade on the wiki. Here, I’ll do it for you. Tabi: “UNIQUE: Reduces incoming damage from all basic attacks by 12% (excluding turret shots). Does not reduce damage of on-hit effects, it does however reduce damage of basic attack modifiers.” Duskblade: “UNIQUE – NIGHTSTALKER: After being unseen for at least 1 second, your next basic attack against an enemy champion deals 30 - 200 (based on level) bonus on-hit physical damage and Slow icon.png by 99% for 0.25 seconds. The enhanced attack lasts 5 seconds after being seen by an enemy champion.”

  3. Looks like some more ass pulling numbers making an absolute best case use of DFG and while ignoring anything that would hurt your case.

  4. Assassins must be pretty shit if none of them are able to get on top of their targets.

Infinite Saught7 votes

This is rather inaccurate. Duskblade's cooldown is infinitely less than DFG's. While yeah DFG basically gave you a near guarenteed chance to one-hit someone, Duskblade is almost always up for you to use as it has a more flexible "cooldown".

Colton1479 votes

MissFortune Quinn

PaffWasTaken7 votes

Incoming Assassin mains who demand +30 base ad on every assassin's to "compensate" for item 3147

TheMysticWar7 votes

Uh just remove it

Ratpie4 votes

I agree, I think it adds a lot of problems. I have seen it on SOOOOoooo many champs it is insane. Champs that should really not even be using it are with surprising success. Instead of creating gimmicky busted items, why not just adjust the champions to do what they are supposed to do. Itemization should provide choice of builds. When there are some champs that get something EVERY time no matter what the conditions, that is a problem. Itemization should be mroe fluid.

Pokemonred2004 votes

I remember the reason duskblade added was because they wanted to give assassins a new item to allow them to better do their jobs, because the changes to Warrior and Last Whisper left them lacking in damage because jungle assassins lost Warrior's 10 flat armor pen, while all assassins lost Last Whisper since it was changed to effect bonus armor instead of total armor. Maybe they could've just... make it another ball of stats, instead of making it this doomsday device, so that the choice between Duskblade and Ghostblade was... an actual choice.

SwiftKitten884 votes

keep in mind the balance team is season 5 wasn't anywhere near as bad as our current balance team... don't expect these newer guys to figure out what is obvious to the rest of humanity.

SlashStriker3 votes

Why is Duskblade considered too OP or unhealthy for the game but item 3078 triforce, item 3146 Gunblade, item 3031 IE, item 3089 Deathcap, are not?

Duskblade does up to 200 phys damage where Trinity Force does 200% base ad bonus phys damage which is probably higher

Katarina / Akali and other mages use Gunblade which scales harder than Duskblade

Have you ever wondered how Janna would do with Duskblade? Have you ever thought that the item might not be the exact problem and maybe its just that champion have higher Burst damage than other champion?

In case Jarvan he always been assassin who is always been able to burst you down way before Duskblade. Instead Riot to nerf his damge they removed part of his tankiness and kept his High damage so the item itself ain't the problem

Why wouldn't Jhin, Lucian and MF get Duskblade if its good on them? Why would every single ADC should be crit only?

Master Yi, Kayle, Varus, Kogmal and maybe Udyr get Rageblade and Bork as essential item for instance and just like Deathcap and Infinity, Rageblade boosts onhit effects that are specifically against tanks

Somebody Love Me2 votes

Deathcap is a late game scaling item and it only offers one thing: Raw damage.

Triforce is pretty big of an item, but its expensive, so it's somewhat justified. It's a very big powerspike item, but if the user is delayed in getting it, it's detrimental.

IE is kinda like dcap, in terms of scaling, but it's also a decent early item. But I don't feel like it's too problematic, until other items are behind it.

Gunblade is a crazy item, probably the most comparable to duskblade, but again, super expensive. Delaying it fucks the user. It has a higher combine cost than triforce too.

Duskblade is a huge power spike item, and its also the cheapest out of all the items listed, while providing equal stuff, maybe more than others.

Damage, flat pen, a sweeper (that insta kills wards :D), and a bigger damage passive (and a slow) with no cooldown, just a 1 sec prep time. All for 2900 gold

PopcornBunni2 votes

Poppy was still listed as an assassin well past her rework and still had 90-100% bonus AD ratios as well as like the 10th highest base AD. On top of that her resistances are getting gutted while her E range is being increased by 50 next patch.

Poppy item 3147 item 3078 item 3053 ay lmao

ZephyrDrake2 votes

Then you realize that unlike deathfire, duskblade was designed to be a core item of assassins. Deathfire was literally "you are now a burst mage/ assassin regardless of which champion you picked" and it didn't even matter who you targeted they all died just as fast. Duskblade is more interesting and actually enhances the strength of assassins. It's also an item that for the most part only assassins want to get (few exceptions) instead of something literally every single type of mage not named Lux or Xerath would get because "why not!?"

Prometheus5962 votes

[zombie-brand-clap] Soooooooo Im guessing your an adc main?

FurriesAreHot1 votes

So he points how how an assassin item is problematic in the same way a previously removed item was, and because it’s an assassin item he is automatically a whining ADC Main?

What??

Prometheus5961 votes

{quoted}

So he points how how an assassin item is problematic in the same way a previously removed item was, and because it’s an assassin item he is automatically a whining ADC Main?

What??

Dude... It was just a joke. Im a low mobility mage main Syndra Orianna , I've got my own set of quarrels with assassins

Edit: I know, I know Syndra Orianna HA HA! But seriously...

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Ahhh I see. Wasn’t too clear, since I’ve seen a few comments exactly like this who aren’t joking.

Prometheus5961 votes

{quoted}

Ahhh I see. Wasn’t too clear, since I’ve seen a few comments exactly like this who aren’t joking.

np

Mcsquzzy2 votes

shh duskblade is slotted for season 10 removal, mage assassins got 4 years now AD assassins and some out of the cookie jar champs get there 4 years. (duskblade was 6.3)

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