Why is no one mentioning Tryndamere and Yasuo with the new IE changes.

NA Darklarik·May 2, 2018·54 votes·20,268 views

Like brotha im terrified. IE now dobles Crit CHANCE and converts 20% of crits into true damage. So with just this item can reach 70% Crit via his passive, and deal 40% True damage with his Crits via Conqueror. Same with , buys 1 single Zeal after getting IE will have 80% Crit chance which will translate to 40% True damage. Thats just with 2 items. And god forbid if they get the Total Armor pen items for pure overkill... like is Riot just going to leave them there like this :v

So if either of these champs get ahead your boned cuz neither Armor nor damage nor nothing will allow you too stop or trade with them, or did i miss something? [sg-ahri-1]

65 Comments

TwinkieProMay 2, 201827 votes

Tryndamere will spike hard with IE, but yasuo does not.

From a previous response i gave:

I did a little testing, and it seems the percentages are additive instead of overlapping. With at lvl 18, he does 140 AD and 69 true, when conqueror procs, he does 132 and 148 respectively. This is on test dummies of course. That's 209 vs. 280, a 71 damage difference. So it seems conqueror is still a good keystone.

Compared to live, 207 flat, changed to 197 and 98 true, 295 total.

So essentially. New IE is better for yasuo if he takes a different keystone, otherwise its definitely a nerf. Maybe people will stop complaining, maybe it will be changed. It will be a long PBE cycle.

Let's also not forget Yasuo cannot get 100% crit chance with 3400 gold but instead has to spend over 5k to reach 100%.

DeusVultMay 2, 20181 votes

I think that you are overlooking something. The IE nerf to crit damage doesnt nerf Yasuo as hard as others, and it doesn't hurt him if he is fighting a 1v1 or 2v2 vs squishies, as most of the time his damage is overkill.

New IE + conqueror though mean that he will shred tanks faster than ever

TwinkieProMay 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think that you are overlooking something. The IE nerf to crit damage doesnt nerf Yasuo as hard as others, and it doesn't hurt him if he is fighting a 1v1 or 2v2 vs squishies, as most of the time his damage is overkill.

New IE + conqueror though mean that he will shred tanks faster than ever

In the testing I did, He has a slight reduction versus squishy targets, or those with ~50 AR. But yes, he does exponentially more to targets with 150 or more AR.

yay nibbersMay 3, 20183 votes

What are you talking about? Yasuo passively does less crit damage than everyone else. If anything he's the most hurt by this, especially considering he's a squishy melee character.

AsterfixMay 2, 201811 votes

Literally everyone is mentioning them, the first page is all about this. The changes lower their overall damage from what it was before and forces them to buy damage items that are more expensive than crit chance items. So they aren't as bursty until late game.

HäxelMay 2, 20187 votes

On yasuo nothing changes. Live: item 3086 + item 1018 80% crit, far more cheaper as + item 3031 (both get cost highered). item 3046 + is in both cases just 100% crit but live you get more critdmg which yasuo already has from the begin reduced. Not only will yasuo have a weaker early cause he no longer can buy a cloak and needs to finsih ie completly, truedmg is just worse on him as the current extra crit dmg. On trynda you maybe have to watch cause i also suppose new item 3508 is far better on him as current even while both versions are manaitems he uses them live and in the future probably too.

i kick routersMay 2, 20182 votes

[deleted]

TerozuMay 2, 20182 votes

Yes. So he cant build it now.

Not only will yasuo have a weaker early cause he no longer can buy a cloak

He said this.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

TheGreatNinxMay 2, 20181 votes

Don't forget the -10% crit damage will also still apply

HäxelMay 2, 20181 votes

yep, didn't forget it, jsut didn't mention it again. with ie before you ahd like 240% critdmg, now it remaisn 190%.

yay nibbersMay 3, 20181 votes

It's actually less than that. He loses 10% (25% for Q) from the total crit damage, not the multiplier. His auto-attack crit damage actually works out to 180% (2000.9) without IE and 225% (2500.9) with.

HäxelMay 3, 20181 votes

the 10% just is on the bonus crit dmg, not on the total dmg. You deal 100% normal autodmg and 100% extra critdmg but yasuo just deals 90% extra dmg on crit so it actualy is 190%. Same math goes to the current ie passive and yasuo q.

SasogwaMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

On trynda you maybe have to watch cause i also suppose new is far better on him as current even while both versions are manaitems he uses them live and in the future probably too.

What? Live ER gives critchance and 30% cdr compared to 20% cdr on new ER and no crit, new ER only has effectiveness during Trynd's ultimate and just for a little bit of as and refund on E which he already has on autos? I'm really not convinced, I feel like old ER is billion times better than new ER for Trynd. But new IE might be slightly better.

HäxelMay 2, 20181 votes

just for a little bit of as and refund on E which he already has on autos?

you talk as this is no deal at all. WHat is tryndameres strenght? his ult, autoattacking and using his spells for rage to get mroe q heal or more crit for stronger autos. So not only remains the 70 ad on er and 20%cdr flat even as rush on trynda (i don't say he gonan rush it but works now better as a rush), he will also get this effect on his ult: to attack evenf aster and while yes, crits reduce his e , er will also reduce e and reduces w and q too. And 2 reduce effects are better as one. Also his crit will not change cause while live trynda gets item 3046 item 3508 item 3031 and has with a full passive 105% crit (max 100 ofc) on 8.11 trynda will have with the same itembuild theoretical 130% crit, already with ie alone 70% crit. So you could say he no longer needs er but what item should be there to replace it: er still remaisn a good item on him. Maybe even pd just gonna get replaced for a raw as item like Botrk (but probably 100% crit or with 0 furry 60%crit is safer).

ofcourse this is just my opinion, could still be that trynda now changes er for a bt or dd or ga or steraks or deadmans or whatever (wits end trynda lulz)

SasogwaMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you talk as this is no deal at all. WHat is tryndameres strenght? his ult, autoattacking and using his spells for rage to get mroe q heal or more crit for stronger autos. So not only remains the 70 ad on er and 20%cdr flat even as rush on trynda (i don't say he gonan rush it but works now better as a rush), he will also get this effect on his ult: to attack evenf aster and while yes, crits reduce his e , er will also reduce e and reduces w and q too. And 2 reduce effects are better as one. Also his crit will not change cause while live trynda gets and has with a full passive 105% crit (max 100 ofc) on 8.11 trynda will have with the same itembuild theoretical 130% crit, already with ie alone 70% crit. So you could say he no longer needs er but what item should be there to replace it: er still remaisn a good item on him. Maybe even pd just gonna get replaced for a raw as item like Botrk (but probably 100% crit or with 0 furry 60%crit is safer).

ofcourse this is just my opinion, could still be that trynda now changes er for a bt or dd or ga or steraks or deadmans or whatever (wits end trynda lulz)

The problem is his ER passive only works after Trynd ulted, so he spends the first part of the fight without it, and it's a much weaker laning item than previously (you're not in ult for most of the laning phase and trades). Imo several picks can abuse new ER much more than Trynd can. And at best it's as strong as old ER. Certainly not "way stronger"

HäxelMay 2, 20181 votes

Again it remains a 70ad item so you have also not only in ult strong autos. And you have 20%cdr. Equal to that would only be bc or trinity and these just have less or far less ad. Also forgive me but i think it is hard to say out of the item description if er activates after tpressing ult or after ult finishs. If it is after you activate it it is a strong item on yi and trynda. if it is after ult finishs it probably gonna suck and i can say sry, you probably are right. Seeing that champs like jhin, mf and lucian would profit far more if it activates after ult some could say this will be the case. I just tended to believe short term the other Versions cause i heard many people say its gonna be broken on yi.

Sona PingMay 2, 20185 votes

You are missing some things. Like how Tryndamere goes over on crit chance now anyways. The purpose of all these percent changes isn't to make you boned if they are ahead, it doesn't give bigger crits anymore, remember? Like the Doran's Ring changes, it's not to boost champions that are ahead, it's to nerf the players for the sake boosting those who are behind.

princeblumpkinMay 2, 20184 votes

Terrified of what? The changes are a huge nerf to both champs and both will likely need buffs once the items are changed.

5050BSMay 2, 20183 votes

They are being talked about. Yasuo supporters are saying its nothing (they lie). Yasuo gets 80% crit off 1.5 items AND Conqueror for free. Thats a Problem because now we will see Yasuo with PtA and Conqueror stacked.....

PokladnicaZlaMay 2, 20183 votes

Would be cool if Conqueror didn't interact with crit, as it is the most broken on cirt-users ( MasterYi , Tryndamere and Yasuo ).

TerozuMay 2, 20184 votes

But he used to get 100% off of 1.5.

Phantom & Cape.

saltranMay 2, 20182 votes

Yasuo will reaach 100% crit with Zeal + IE just like he does now, and instead of extra crit dmg he will have more true dmg.

KyunseiMay 2, 20182 votes

Clearly a nerf to Tryndamere.

Only path you can try to go (that could be good for IE rush) is Zeal then IE, to have 100% crit, but even then that's not that great. and finishing zeal is a waste of money, but you'll still have to do it at some point.

iPooUnicornsMay 2, 20181 votes

I actually think these changes would help Tryndamere quite a bit, it would allow him to go for a build along the lines of:

item 3153 item 3071 item 3031

Paired with Conquerer he would be able to shred tanks.

SasogwaMay 2, 20182 votes

Trynd doesn't have much benefit from these changes. You used to go Tiamat -> zerks -> PD -> ER -> maybe IE. Now he lacks CDR so he'll probably get BC or Triforce instead. New IE's buildpath is kinda trash knowing you already have a bunch of AD in your kit (Q) so you benefit more from AS buys and tiamat early on. The true damage conversion is retardedly powerful but he already uses conqueror and let's not forget IE doesn't crit x2.5 anymore either.

Auz the RipperMay 2, 20182 votes

IE could be viable as a singular crit item for trynd, seeing how it grants trynd 70% crit at full rage. Frees up inventory space for other builds like stormrazor and that guaranteed crit+AD+AS and more MS+AS on-crit, or for rageblade+nashor’s tooth for that sweet AS+CDR+mixed damage.

SasogwaMay 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAmdFJlk,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-05-02T16:41:23.397+0000)

IE could be viable as a singular crit item for trynd, seeing how it grants trynd 70% crit at full rage. Frees up inventory space for other builds like stormrazor and that guaranteed crit+AD+AS and more MS+AS on-crit, or for rageblade+nashor’s tooth for that sweet AS+CDR+mixed damage.

Myeah but it then requires Trynd to never use his rage on Q to heal up, because that would tremendously fuck his DPS. Nah, IE is extremely lacking as a sole crit item for Trynd. Other crit items are good on him because of their ridiculous utility. Statikk waveclear, PD duelling and stickiness, old ER for CDR. People didn't even take IE to get ER instead because the utility (30 fucking % CDR) is so busted even though Trynd doesnt use mana !! (that tells how overloaded adc items were..) Nashor's is EHHHH to be honest. Played several times, realized without high crit chance CDR sucks. It's the combination of critchance and CDR that's busted. E, crit, crit, you have E back up. And an AP-ish build rewards using Q, that.... you basically can't use since you rely only on you fury bar for critchance :( And you don't need mixed damage or anything antitank if you're going conqueror's anyway, true damage overpowered.

Auz the RipperMay 2, 20181 votes

The main point of nashors/rageblade is they grant him 80 damage per autoattack and an AS of 1.3 at lvl 10 without any stacks, ramping to 142 damage per effective autoattack (95 with 190 every other) with an AS of 1.68 at full stacks. Full bore item 3031 + item 3046 will give a DPS of 472 and full bore item 3124 + item 3115 does 485 DPS. The DPS of nashor’s rageblade is more dependent on full rageblade stacks than rage so you can heal through the hit to your DPS and you have to remember rage generation is an on-hit effect so rageblade replenishes it quickly.

SasogwaMay 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAmdFJlk,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-02T17:55:10.078+0000)

The main point of nashors/rageblade is they grant him 80 damage per autoattack and an AS of 1.3 at lvl 10 without any stacks, ramping to 142 damage per effective autoattack (95 with 190 every other) with an AS of 1.68 at full stacks. Full bore + will give a DPS of 472 and full bore + does 485 DPS. The DPS of nashor’s rageblade is more dependent on full rageblade stacks than rage so you can heal through the hit to your DPS and you have to remember rage generation is an on-hit effect so rageblade replenishes it quickly.

Yeah well what about item 3077 item 3006 item 3046 item 3071 item 3124 into situational (maybe item 3031 )? Decent crit chance, stacked Rageblade procs BC in no time, decent CDR, good attack speed, a bunch of crit chance, really good laning start items. You don't need Nashor's to make Rageblade work

Auz the RipperMay 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You don't need Nashor's to make Rageblade work

Of course not, in fact you need Rageblade to make Nashor’s work. I’m mainly pushing the rageblade/nashors combo mostly because it’s more entertaining while having extremely similar DPS and function

haaaaaaalpMay 2, 20182 votes

Because historically, trynd and yasuo aren't effected by criticism itemization changes nearly as much as people think on paper. Even though they are critical based champions, they are still melee champions and don't benifit as much from crit items as ranged champions.

As long as the crit items are fine on marksmen, they will not break yasuo or trynd. The changes that have historically been problematic for yasuo or trynd are more changes that are geared towards buffing melee champions more than ranged.

TerozuMay 2, 20182 votes

Yas will still get 100% at two items. Not that big a change.

JackMcSnipeyzMay 2, 20182 votes

Yasuo before changes: IE + Zeal = 40% crit chance x2 = 80% crit chance - total cost: 3400 + 1200 = 4600 gold.

Starts critting from as soon as he gets infinity edge, crit damage increased.

Yasuo after the changes: IE + Zeal = 20% crit x4 =** 80% crit chance** - total cost 3700 + 1300 = 5000 gold. (400 gold increase)

Can only crit after he finishes at least zeal, either deleying his IE purchase time (thus deleying it's passive power spike) or making IE a useless first buy until he invests further 1300 gold on zeal. Also has no increased crit damage, rather converts it into true damage which hurts only if you stack armor against him which unless you're a tank - you shouldnt.

Sounds like a nerf to me, maybe i missed something, you guys are just speculating and panicing without looking at things as they are

GripaAviaraMay 2, 20181 votes

I'm not a yas expert but it was always better imho to start with zeal than IE on him

JackMcSnipeyzMay 2, 20181 votes

So lets say you start zeal. First, it's extra 100 gold, no biggie but nerf none the less. 2nd, you still have to complete IE to get the passive to increase your crit chance because cloak isnt part of the build path. So it is a nerf, it just looks broken on paper.

TempName54846May 2, 20182 votes

with 50% armor pen from ult and 30% from the new lw yasuo is doing true damage anyways.

My HeartshakerMay 2, 20182 votes

Tryndamere loses out massively because item 3508 lost its crit chance and its no longer a good item on him, whereas before it was 100% a core item

ChaddyFantomeMay 2, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=try to plan ahea,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAmdFJlk,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-05-02T17:11:45.959+0000)

loses out massively because lost its crit chance and its no longer a good item on him, whereas before it was 100% a core item

ER tryndemere? [sg-lux-2]

News to me

TempName74814May 2, 20182 votes

fogged (challenger 1trick) always builds essence reaver. it's a highly gold efficient item, even without the mana passive

Inting PepeHandsMay 2, 20181 votes

Is this purely for the cd bonus?

TempName74814May 2, 20182 votes

for the ad, crit, and cdr

it's 103% efficient without either passive, and 119% efficient with just the cdr passive

for context, IE is 93% efficient without its passive

######all based on cost analysis on the league wikia

My HeartshakerMay 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

ER tryndemere? [sg-lux-2]

News to me

It's 100% a core item on him.

SanKakUMay 2, 20181 votes

To add to this, I considered it the same on the reworked Aatrox.

LankPantsMay 3, 20181 votes

On the otherhand he can now go Zeal>IE and get 100% crit with ~90% fury. I don't think Trynd's going to be hurting, he'll find alternatives to ER just due to the extra item slot opened up for him VS other crit champs due to his inherent 35% crit being multiplied to 70% due to IE.

My Waifu VanillaMay 2, 20182 votes

The only champion that would ever consider buying an IE first is Trynd.

The item is straight trolling on Yasuo since it is literally 3500g for 2 BF swords in stats until you buy crit. It doesn't do anything on its own. He is still going to go PD first and then IE at which point....its a nerf against almost every champion in the game since he doesn't get the 50% bonus damage from his crits and the true damage doesn't help him much against non tanks and even against tanks he already shredded 50% armor.

TempName74814May 2, 20182 votes

Yas doesn't build ie first. 3700g on an item that doesn't become useful until later is far from optimal. and you realize that it'll take him 5000g to get 80% crit (if IE first) and 7500g to get 100%, right? Leaves more room to shut him down before coming online. he currently has 3 significant power spikes are at 2600g (PD), 3400g (100% crit), and 6200g (IE)

ToothpickSamuraiMay 2, 20181 votes

I mean, the IE changes don't actually change anything about Yasuo these days, you get IE and Zeal now you still have 80% crit chance, only currently it one shots squishies instead of melts tanks.

Trynd is the one that's real cheesy with new IE cause he can buy it, max his rage and have 70% crit chance with a single item, great for cheesing through a lane.

Edit: Also note that Yasuo would have 0% crit chance with just an IE, it doesn't give you crit if you don't have any from another source.

KyunseiMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, the IE changes don't actually change anything about Yasuo these days, you get IE and Zeal now you still have 80% crit chance, only currently it one shots squishies instead of melts tanks.

Trynd is the one that's real cheesy with new IE cause he can buy it, max his rage and have 70% crit chance with a single item, great for cheesing through a lane.

Amazing. Or you can have 65% crit chance with a zeal item, for 1100 gold cheaper on current patch.

SpecterVonBarenMay 3, 20181 votes

I think no one brings up Tryn because the new items give him a lot of damage... but he's always done a lot of damage and it does nothing to shore up his weaknesses. It'll potentially make him better at winning but doesn't really help him any more than the previous items when he's losing.