These Kog changes on the PBE-

Rebonack··21 votes·2,461 views

-are pretty much exactly what I asked for, loss of the passive attack speed and everything.

Good job, Riot!

There are only two things left now.

  1. Add a passive to Kog's Q that allows him to apply the resist shred over 8~10 basic attacks. The two shreds wouldn't stack, but rather the Q would simply fully stack it on a target instantly. This would further cement Kog's now clearly defined niche as the Marksmen for softening up the enemy front line.

  2. Increase the level 1 slow on his E to 35% or so. This would give Kog a much more compelling choice regarding which of his two secondary skills he wants to max second.

30 Comments

The Yetii Rider10 votes

Giving Kog'maw resistance shred on autos will make Runaan's even more powerful on him than it already is.

Quickly decimating entire teams is Jinx's thing (It used to be Twitch's thing but eh, fuck Twitch amirite?). Kog is supposed to be more of a single target than the entire enemy team.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

Giving Kog'maw resistance shred on autos will make Runaan's even more powerful on him than it already is.

Quickly decimating entire teams is Jinx's thing (It used to be Twitch's thing but eh, fuck Twitch amirite?). Kog is supposed to be more of a single target than the entire enemy team.

Twitch is more about back-line access. Jinx is more about incidental damage getting doled out to anyone near her main target.

Kog's ability to hit multiple things with his basic attacks is tied wholly to an item rather than being part of his kit. Percentile resist shred is quite potent against hard targets, but 40% shred stacked over 8-10 basic attacks really wouldn't make that huge of a difference against soft targets. They'll be dead already long before the resist shred stacks on them.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Twitch is more about back-line access. Jinx is more about incidental damage getting doled out to anyone near her main target.

Kog's ability to hit multiple things with his basic attacks is tied wholly to an item rather than being part of his kit. Percentile resist shred is quite potent against hard targets, but 40% shred stacked over 8-10 basic attacks really wouldn't make that huge of a difference against soft targets. They'll be dead already long before the resist shred stacks on them.

You have to balance champions around the items they buy. That's why Kayle lost 5 AD after Sated Devourer, even though Devourer was changed after to only double every fourth hit on ranged champs.

Kog is beasting through entire teams with Runaan's/Rageblade. His Q has a very short cast time during W so applying it automatically doesn't really help against a single target. It can be abused against multiple targets though.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Watch out guys, Twitch is gonna do 30 damage per auto to your back line. That's not even the scariest part- his passive might do 30 damage.

Ch0c0lateJesus4 votes

He's still a pale shadow of what old kog was.

Typical failure of a rework, and typical Riot for never admitting it.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

He's still a pale shadow of what old kog was.

Typical failure of a rework, and typical Riot for never admitting it.

Pretty sure Riot stomped Kog's poke/kite gameplay pattern because they want that to be Ezreal's thing.

I honestly don't mind the Kog remake. But then again, I ran TanKoggy for years over in Dominionland so it worked pretty well for me.

RocketRelm1 votes

Man, disneyDominionland, I've always wanted to go there. When's it opening back up daddy?

… Daddy? What's with that face?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Man, disneyDominionland, I've always wanted to go there. When's it opening back up daddy?

… Daddy? What's with that face?

Oh, don't worry, Dominion has just gone to live on a nice farm in upstate Washington with Innervating Locket and pre-rework Sion. I'm sure we'll be able to go visit them eventually.

Bisaknosp2 votes

{quoted}

He's still a pale shadow of what old kog was.

Typical failure of a rework, and typical Riot for never admitting it.

thinking the same

Yuumi or Lose3 votes

Not only does this change make his choices more flexible, this also buffs AP Kog in away that he can cast his spells more often. The Q mana cost reduction AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the time gap between each cast of his ult from 10 to 6 seconds is fantastic.

ItsCalledALance1 votes

back to the 'never played' box goes Kog.

GG riot

edit: and by that I refer to the fact that a good chunk of riots "reworks" or "adjustments" just dumpsters the champ and they never see a play rate over 3%

Fun exciting example? sej. She goes from Never played. to LCS. riot "adjusts her" and now shes back to trash tier.

Bisaknosp2 votes

{quoted}

back to the 'never played' box goes Kog.

GG riot

edit: and by that I refer to the fact that a good chunk of riots "reworks" or "adjustments" just dumpsters the champ and they never see a play rate over 3%

Fun exciting example? sej. She goes from Never played. to LCS. riot "adjusts her" and now shes back to trash tier.

so sad he was one of my fav adc's before the rework now he is so fuckn unfun to play and is getting nerfed until he is unplayable

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

He doesn't lose much AS though...... he just gains it passively instead of a skill to balance it.....

SleepyWolfie1 votes

{quoted}

back to the 'never played' box goes Kog.

GG riot

edit: and by that I refer to the fact that a good chunk of riots "reworks" or "adjustments" just dumpsters the champ and they never see a play rate over 3%

Fun exciting example? sej. She goes from Never played. to LCS. riot "adjusts her" and now shes back to trash tier.

You must realize, most must realize. Its not easy at all to balance a game like this. Sejuani and Kog´Maw in the future are not "trash tier" and will not be. Our vision is always blinded by the top tier champions. There will always be top tier champions, they will always make a tweak here and there and all of a sudden a random champion jumps from 49% winrate to 57%. Its very unexpected.

I tell you whats trash tier: Nunu, Nunu right now really IS trash tier. You can fck with that. Sejuani is quite fine right now. Yes they fcked up by leaving her in the dirt after the Tank Jungle item was nerfed. But RIGHT now she is fine. But fine will always be blinded by broken (Udyr, Kog´Maw in 6.3).

ItsCalledALance1 votes

you are correct, nunu is THE standard of trash right now.

One thing I do want to say is that i can not figure out this games obsession with win rate stats. THey are HIGHLY misleading, and unreliable.

Nobody ever asks "WHY is this champions win rate so high?" exmaple being udry. Hes win rate ONLY when up when he hit the front page on Reddit. People Assumed he was really OP so they picked him thinking they were going to win.

People also dont figure into that equation the BUILDS of the champs. Is it an ITEM that is making him feel op? a set of items?

its baffling. and offensive that people just see a win rate go up by a stupidly small 5% and think "OMG THIS CHAMP NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!"

SleepyWolfie1 votes

{quoted}

you are correct, nunu is THE standard of trash right now.

One thing I do want to say is that i can not figure out this games obsession with win rate stats. THey are HIGHLY misleading, and unreliable.

Nobody ever asks "WHY is this champions win rate so high?" exmaple being udry. Hes win rate ONLY when up when he hit the front page on Reddit. People Assumed he was really OP so they picked him thinking they were going to win.

People also dont figure into that equation the BUILDS of the champs. Is it an ITEM that is making him feel op? a set of items?

its baffling. and offensive that people just see a win rate go up by a stupidly small 5% and think "OMG THIS CHAMP NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!"

Mmm you are right on some points. But also you cannot underestimate the win rates either. There are always many things that determine the win rate: Play rate, the skill required to play that champion and WHO plays that champion, its not the same if most people play a certain champion more in Challenger than in gold leagues and of course the builds people use.

But it can be an indicator of power aswell. For example: Kog´Maw, he had 56% win rate, and most people agreed that he was stupidly strong (he was banned in the LCS and that says something). Win rates ARE unreliable, but you cant let it pass by without being seen because they say more than it seems.

About Udyr, yes they picked him thinking they were going to win, quite ironic most of them won (around 57% winrate)...

fractalfantasies1 votes

When I saw the PBE I thought of the thread you made.

Getting rid of the AS steroid and giving him flat magic damage seems to be an nerf however.

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

When I saw the PBE I thought of the thread you made.

Getting rid of the AS steroid and giving him flat magic damage seems to be an nerf however.

Loss of attack speed (quite a bit of attack speed with the base AS going down) is going to hit his late game pretty hard. If Kog is too gimpy late, then adding a bonus AD ratio to the flat magic damage on his W would be a great way to patch him up.

I'm not really looking at this from the standpoint of 'how strong will Kog be next patch?' but rather 'how well can Riot balance around this new kit?'

As it stands, Kog will have a wider selection of levers to tweak, especially if Riot adds a bonus AD ratio to W again.

fractalfantasies1 votes

I appreciate what you're saying and I do agree.

His late game looks notably weak right now, but looking at the long term, Riots direction with the guy looks very promising and also very true to his original theme.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate what you're saying and I do agree.

His late game looks notably weak right now, but looking at the long term, Riots direction with the guy looks very promising and also very true to his original theme.

The biggest thing for me is the greater focus on Kog's resist shred.

Koggy lost a big chunk of his tank-busting identity when his %HP W damage dropped like a rock. Giving him the ability to soften up the enemy front line gives him a very clear reason to be picked over other Marksmen choices. Giving him the ability to apply the resist shred with auto-attacks would just reinforce that identity.

Because let's be clear here.

'Attacking really fast' isn't an identity. Nor is 'doing lots of damage' Most Marksmen do both of those things.

But utterly demolishing a hard target's resistance? That's unique to Kog.

Yumeii2 votes

I'd just like to note that Kog'Maw is actually gaining attack speed with the (tentative) 6.5 changes, though with some caveats: only late in the game, and only when compared to 6.4.

I'm not entirely certain how the wiki calculated a 25.5% attack speed gain by level 18... seeing as how that brings his attack speed from 0.625 to 0.784 (yet they listed his level 18 AS as 0.88 or so, which is a 40.8% increase). Seems like someone screwed up somewhere when updating the wiki.

In any case, I did a little math based on the growth formula and here's the comparisons I've made on Kog'Maw's AS. This is assuming no runes, no masteries, no items, but maxed out Q/W (depending on patch).

Patch 6.2 0.665 (base AS), 1.5% growth 0.92 (level 18) +0.233 (35% from Q) =1.153

Patch 6.3 0.665 (base AS), 1.5% growth 0.92 (level 18) +0.233 (35% from W) =1.153

Patch 6.4 0.625 (base AS), 1.5% growth 0.88 (level 18) +0.219 (35% from W) =1.099 (1.061 at level 16)

Current PBE (6.5?) 0.625 (base AS), 3% growth 1.135 (level 18) +0 (no more passive from Q/W) =1.135 (1.059 at level 16)

So 6.5 Kog'Maw will have higher end game AS than 6.4, but it doesn't actually overtake it until level 17. Could be considered a loss, could be considered a gain... just depends when in the game you're looking I suppose. But the removal from skills does make W less overloaded and gives more consideration to leveling other skills, so I count that as a plus.

But despite all that, 6.5 is still lower than 6.3 and 6.2, and in more ways than one. The final result at level 18 is lower, but also any gains from AS items since bonus AS is always calculated off base AS, which has already been lowered as of 6.4.

Random note: Kog'Maw seems to be one of the slowest default ADCs (not counting the double AS from activating W). Many of the other ADCs have both base AS and growth greater than 0.625 and 3% respectively.

ItsCalledALance1 votes

Well done. I like these kind of things. Put the change in a way that removes a persons feelings. This is how riot should post changes rather than "we felt like" because lets be honest. If you main something, and someone else says "i feel like that should be changed" you ain't going to give 2 fucks about their feelings.

LaughingStapler1 votes

I agree with that direction. I think it makes much more sense and it seems to be received on the PBE. Whether he turns out to be too weak or strong, he will certainly be more interesting than he is now.

BTW: I disagree with an AD ratio on W because I think it will just make Rageblade (and possibly Gunblade after) absolutely mandatory regardless of lane. It creates one of those super high efficiency item scenarios that is so overwhelmingly strong relative to other choices that it constricts his itemization (since he will be balanced around that core item).

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with that direction. I think it makes much more sense and it seems to be received on the PBE. Whether he turns out to be too weak or strong, he will certainly be more interesting than he is now.

Absolutely.

Kog is more interesting if his auto-attack modifiers are something unique to him rather than a generic attack speed passive. There are plenty of champs with attack speed skills. Focusing more on Kog's tank-busting niche better defines him as a champion with unique strengths to bring to the table.

To that end, Vayne is still better at killing hard targets than Kog, but her tank-busting is purely selfish. Kog's tank busting, however, makes hard targets vulnerable to his whole team.

LaughingStapler1 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely.

Kog is more interesting if his auto-attack modifiers are something unique to him rather than a generic attack speed passive. There are plenty of champs with attack speed skills. Focusing more on Kog's tank-busting niche better defines him as a champion with unique strengths to bring to the table.

To that end, Vayne is still better at killing hard targets than Kog, but her tank-busting is purely selfish. Kog's tank busting, however, makes hard targets vulnerable to his whole team.

I've kind of wondered why they went with extra flat damage over more % HP. I'm not disagreeing with the decision, but it does make his tooltips more complicated. Could it be for farming purposes?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I've kind of wondered why they went with extra flat damage over more % HP. I'm not disagreeing with the decision, but it does make his tooltips more complicated. Could it be for farming purposes?

It helps with his farming and it makes his early/mid game less bad.

I think Riot has more or less given up on Kog being a super late game hyper-carry. To make him a desirable pick over Twitch or Vayne would require him to be hilariously over-tuned.

And that's fine. Kog has always been a mid-game power house with a solid late game instead of a hard drop-off like what Corki displays.

Cerbearus1 votes

Soooooo Kayle's passive?

Bârd1 votes

Only one thing I want.

Give me AP Kog or give me death.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=To6YsANT,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-02-27T05:32:57.855+0000)

Only one thing I want.

Give me AP Kog or give me death.

Still think Kog's Ult AP ratio should be a flat value rather than getting boosted against low HP targets. That would make AP Kog's poke much better, further resolving him from AD Kog.

LadyRenly1 votes

So...will AS Kog still be a thing? I think 5.0 AS Kog Maw is the coolest thing ever

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