Games aren't decided by the "15 minute mark"

GigglesO·Feb 20, 2018·54 votes·2,626 views

Umm, sure they aren't.

This one def wasn't over by the 8 minute mark, and it def doesn't just take 10 minutes to slowly finish their entire base.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2723576640/33518097?tab=overview

This is what players are complaining about. The games may take 20-30 minutes, but the last 10 minutes (which in a 20 minute game is half the game) is just slowly destroying their entire base.

There is a 75% chance of winning if you get first blood (typically minutes 1-5), first dragon, (minute 5-7) First tower (minute 10) That means you have a 25% chance of winning against those conditions which happen in the first 10 minutes. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-8-3-infographics

IT just doesn't make for a healthy game when you play 10 minutes of a game just to end. It makes it where you literally are just slowly dying for the rest of the game. No wonder we have such mental issues with this game.

64 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaFeb 20, 201819 votes

Highly scientific statistics!

GigglesOFeb 21, 20188 votes

I know right? At least I pulled some stats into the discussion. It is harder for the fanboys to say I'm circle jerking the boards.

MagicFlyingLlamaFeb 21, 201813 votes

{quoted}

I know right? At least I pulled some stats into the discussion. It is harder for the fanboys to say I'm circle jerking the boards.

Irony utterly lost.

option paralysisFeb 21, 201816 votes

Last 50 games in diamond, maybe there were like 5 of them that could have went either way. Just ended the game where I ganked top and got a kill, but my bot lane got ganked - double killed and lost tower.... then enemy bot came top mid and took all towers and we lost. ---- > every game is like this. Either winning or losing. It's the same shit. I don't feel like I'm doing anything in game. Either I gank bot and they're good so we win, or I gank bot and they still lose so I lose too. Like what the hell.

GigglesOFeb 21, 20183 votes

I feel like at least before the assassin update, if an early champ closed out a game fast it was because they were an early game champ. Now I feel like if an early game champ closed out the game its because late game champs get to late game at 2-3 items, and the early game champ didn't fall off, because the game would never last long enough for them to fall off. Sure the pros can do it, but as a team, how many people can avoid instant dying to that lee sin gank level 3?

Linna ExcelFeb 21, 201813 votes

I've seen games decided in pick/ban.

LOSINGISMYPRIDEFeb 21, 20183 votes

i have seen game decided when someone started the client .https://i.imgur.com/AZHdBja.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/AZHdBja.gif

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

I actually did an experiment on one of my accts... I stopped dodging. Instead, I noted the game as a 'dodge experiement' and tried to win it. 85% accuracy. But then, seeing teemo support doesnt take a genius to work out it's going to be a tough game.

CppLFeb 21, 20188 votes

Dont worry about destroying their base for 10 minutes.They buffing baron in the next patch.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 21, 20184 votes

Your own claims about the stats are disproven by the link you posted.

General Esdeath Feb 21, 20182 votes

How so?

Sp33d Zer0Feb 21, 20182 votes

First blood is 59.73%

First tower is 72.49%

First Dragon is 68,15%

None of those are at 75%

General Esdeath Feb 21, 20181 votes

Ah ok, I'm on phone so I can't click and look at all the links

GigglesOFeb 21, 20184 votes

its Higher if all 3 happen together. Those are individual winrate of each thing occurring.

SubdueFeb 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

its Higher if all 3 happen together. Those are individual winrate of each thing occurring.

This is not how statistics works.

The first blood statistic means the team that scores first blood wins 60% of time, regardless of anything else that happens in the match, including taking towers, dragons and anything else.

You don't add it to the other measurements to come up with a new statistic.

What you (and by you I mean the site, not necessarily you as an individual) can do is aggregate the probability of first tower given first blood, or the probability of winning given first blood and first tower, and other such combinations, but none of these can be derived mathematically from the values given.

3TWarriorFeb 23, 20181 votes

although I don't know which site would do it, it actually would make sense to make individual statistics for if both events or all three events occur

72% is also only slightly different from 75% . Although the numbers are there for larger amounts of players, if we compare an average player's number of games

the average player would probably play between 2 and 20 games per day. If they play that maximum, 14.4 games will win with first tower if they always achieve it compared to 15 games won if it were 75%

now this is where it gets worse as the stats can only go up with bonuses given from advantages

SubdueFeb 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

although I don't know which site would do it, it actually would make sense to make individual statistics for if both events or all three events occur

72% is also only slightly different from 75% . Although the numbers are there for larger amounts of players, if we compare an average player's number of games

the average player would probably play between 2 and 20 games per day. If they play that maximum, 14.4 games will win with first tower if they always achieve it compared to 15 games won if it were 75%

now this is where it gets worse as the stats can only go up with bonuses given from advantages

This is still a misunderstanding of how statistics work. Those values show correlation, not causation. They state that, for example 60% of the time the team that gets first blood wins the game. But buried in that 60% is some number of games where a team was going to win whether they got first blood or not.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 21, 20181 votes

Except of you have first tower you already most certainly have first blood.

That's like saying first baron + first Inhib is a 100% win rate

HellmetFeb 21, 20184 votes

I think part of the point of this thread is saying... if you make a mistake early the punishment for that mistake is very harsh.. and in a lot of cases ultimately it means you lose the game no matter how good you play through the game. Once you lost a tower and start losing map control, it can be difficult to near impossible to get it back.

I get that, there are games where I feel like once the enemy team has setup vision in our jungle that it's almost impossible to clean it out. I've played games where almost everybody on the team has sweeper, we spend time cleaning it out only to have the wards placed back in 30 seconds later. To me it feels like there is something wrong with the vision game also.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

Agreed, the loss of trackers knife will help in high elo play.

I really am hoping for a cut in kill gold though, that might really calm down the snowballyness (and make pros be actually willing to risk fights more).

Meep ManFeb 21, 20183 votes

The problem with your perspective in my eyes is you think there's nothing the defending team can do in 10 minutes. I think the main difference here is perspective. If you think go in with the knowledge and thinking that "if this happens there is a high chance I'll lose", you will lose more often than not.

Critmaster GarenFeb 21, 20185 votes

{quoted}

The problem with your perspective in my eyes is you think there's nothing the defending team can do in 10 minutes.

there isnt really. mind youre were not talking about bronze/silver/gold trash mmr here where people constantly throw overwhelming leads.

SwaggyMcGhee420Feb 21, 20181 votes

Idk who you've been playing with if you think diamond players don't throw all the time.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

You obviously havent seen low elo in a LONG time if you think that diamonds throw at even half the rate of silver players. (Not saying they don't, Ive seen it, but it's no where near as common).

Iffy JarlFeb 21, 20182 votes

So In a perfect world you would have a 50 percent chance of winning the game but it isn't there are counter picks, side of the map which your jungler wants to start on, feast and famine champs, late, early, etc. So lets say you have a 40-60 chance of winning depending on your match up on average. Then lets say we give up all those objectives within the first 10 minutes(lets remember minions start fighting in lane at about 1:45) if 25 percent is unacceptable percentage after giving up those objectives what is?

CaveslothFeb 21, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tm3KzgWO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-21T01:58:34.277+0000)

So In a perfect world you would have a 50 percent chance of winning the game but it isn't there are counter picks, side of the map which your jungler wants to start on, feast and famine champs, late, early, etc. So lets say you have a 40-60 chance of winning depending on your match up on average. Then lets say we give up all those objectives within the first 10 minutes(lets remember minions start fighting in lane at about 1:45) if 25 percent is unacceptable percentage after giving up those objectives what is?

Its not that giving up all those objectives that is the problem, its that if you give up first blood, their chances of getting first tower or drag or both increase astronomically. So games are no longer decided by your skill or who has the BETTER player, but who has the WORST player. This takes the agency out of players hands and puts into the hands of matchmaking. Its not fun to have zero control over whether you win. One can argue hey you can still have fun in a losing game, but lets be honest, that is getting ALOT harder when the game is so snowbally. And if they point of playing games is to have fun, why play a game where the odds of having fun are not "ever in your favor"? Honestly it feels more like a gambling game than a game of skill atm.

Frost1c3Feb 21, 20182 votes

That is an interesting point, I have noticed that more games are decided due to another players in competence (or me feeding and causeing everyone else to loose) than me getting ahead, it honestly feels like I have to player better than the other guy who is winning another lane, this is why I try and jng rather than top, since as jng I can stop/reduce the snowball easier as jng than Top, and midlane my job becomes roam to the loosing lane, my game becoming decided by my ability to perform theses tasks, which honestly feels like a chore and unfun. This is admittedly addecdotal, and I am by no means super skilled, just my 2c

Iffy JarlFeb 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Its not that giving up all those objectives that is the problem, its that if you give up first blood, their chances of getting first tower or drag or both increase astronomically. So games are no longer decided by your skill or who has the BETTER player, but who has the WORST player. This takes the agency out of players hands and puts into the hands of matchmaking. Its not fun to have zero control over whether you win. One can argue hey you can still have fun in a losing game, but lets be honest, that is getting ALOT harder when the game is so snowbally. And if they point of playing games is to have fun, why play a game where the odds of having fun are not "ever in your favor"? Honestly it feels more like a gambling game than a game of skill atm.

Ok but pretty much every game is like this, in cod if you lose B in domination you are instantly more likley to win in chess you can gain advantages/take pieces that make you more likley to win, why shouldn't taking objectives and getting kills make you more likley to win.

I'm seeing this narrative breeding on the boards thats saying games aren't about how good your team is but how incompetent 1 of your teammates is and that this removes agency from the game, but let's look at this if your top laner feeds his ass off and your bot lane plays safe and gets through lane with minimal kills/deaths even cs why shouldn't the enemy have an advantage over you? Wouldn't it really remove agency from the game if you as a solo laner absolutely destroyed your lane and didn't at least see a minor difference in the advantage your team kept?

CaveslothFeb 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tm3KzgWO,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2018-02-21T16:46:29.900+0000)

Ok but pretty much every game is like this, in cod if you lose B in domination you are instantly more likley to win in chess you can gain advantages/take pieces that make you more likley to win, why shouldn't taking objectives and getting kills make you more likley to win.

I'm seeing this narrative breeding on the boards thats saying games aren't about how good your team is but how incompetent 1 of your teammates is and that this removes agency from the game, but let's look at this if your top laner feeds his ass off and your bot lane plays safe and gets through lane with minimal kills/deaths even cs why shouldn't the enemy have an advantage over you? Wouldn't it really remove agency from the game if you as a solo laner absolutely destroyed your lane and didn't at least see a minor difference in the advantage your team kept?

I'm not saying they shouldn't have some advantage over you, its the amount. It used to be if someone was 5-0, and you had no kills, it wasn't like they had turned on godmode, you could still outplay them with skill and cunning. Now it takes your ENTIRE TEAM too kill that one person with a 5 kill lead. Once someone has even a small lead, they have to be completely retarded to lose it. It takes zero effort to keep a lead. None. That's not healthy or natural.

Iffy JarlFeb 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying they shouldn't have some advantage over you, its the amount. It used to be if someone was 5-0, and you had no kills, it wasn't like they had turned on godmode, you could still outplay them with skill and cunning. Now it takes your ENTIRE TEAM too kill that one person with a 5 kill lead. Once someone has even a small lead, they have to be completely retarded to lose it. It takes zero effort to keep a lead. None. That's not healthy or natural.

Ok then that goes back to my original question if 25 percent is too low after gaining those objectives then what do you think is best?

CaveslothFeb 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tm3KzgWO,comment-id=00020000000200000000,timestamp=2018-02-21T23:46:55.563+0000)

Ok then that goes back to my original question if 25 percent is too low after gaining those objectives then what do you think is best?

My problem is less with the objectives than with the kills snowballing so hard. Yes first tower blood usually wins, but is that because of the gold the tower gave, or gold the kills that lead to it gave or a bit of both? Hard to tell since you rarely have a ftb without kills.

That said, the kills give way too much power as I stated in the previous example. For the game to "feel" good, comebacks need to possible. But not so possible the games last forever. Right now the pendulum has obviously swung quite far away from comebacks, but no reasonable person wants it all the way on the other side either. Somewhere in the middle, as it was in previous seasons would be best, but since riot obviously wants faster games, its hard to say how to make comebacks possible without giving up the fast, flashy gameplay for the LCS they obviously want.

Iffy JarlFeb 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

My problem is less with the objectives than with the kills snowballing so hard. Yes first tower blood usually wins, but is that because of the gold the tower gave, or gold the kills that lead to it gave or a bit of both? Hard to tell since you rarely have a ftb without kills.

That said, the kills give way too much power as I stated in the previous example. For the game to "feel" good, comebacks need to possible. But not so possible the games last forever. Right now the pendulum has obviously swung quite far away from comebacks, but no reasonable person wants it all the way on the other side either. Somewhere in the middle, as it was in previous seasons would be best, but since riot obviously wants faster games, its hard to say how to make comebacks possible without giving up the fast, flashy gameplay for the LCS they obviously want.

the lcs has like the longest games ever rn

CaveslothFeb 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tm3KzgWO,comment-id=0002000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T04:31:33.671+0000)

the lcs has like the longest games ever rn

Ironic considering their aims isn't it? But it makes sense. If they keep making the game so snowbally, OF COURSE the pros are gonna play safe, they know the danger of the snowball getting rolling better than most. Honestly the whole riot balance team just needs to take a basic psychology class so these changes that make the game worse for all the rest of us stop backfiring on them so horribly. Hell the baron/elder changes will probably make it even worse for the LCS, but definitely worse for lower elos. All for what? Trying to make the LCS more watchable by making it flashy/quick fps style games? Well guess what doesn't work in a moba unless you make deaths less punishing, and then if you do that, its not really a moba is it? Because then its more about the kills than the objectives.

Iffy JarlFeb 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ironic considering their aims isn't it? But it makes sense. If they keep making the game so snowbally, OF COURSE the pros are gonna play safe, they know the danger of the snowball getting rolling better than most. Honestly the whole riot balance team just needs to take a basic psychology class so these changes that make the game worse for all the rest of us stop backfiring on them so horribly. Hell the baron/elder changes will probably make it even worse for the LCS, but definitely worse for lower elos. All for what? Trying to make the LCS more watchable by making it flashy/quick fps style games? Well guess what doesn't work in a moba unless you make deaths less punishing, and then if you do that, its not really a moba is it? Because then its more about the kills than the objectives.

The baron buffs are going to help end games sooner by adding a definitively ending objective so that players cant just sling shit out and clear the wave

CaveslothFeb 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tm3KzgWO,comment-id=000200000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T09:33:44.607+0000)

The baron buffs are going to help end games sooner by adding a definitively ending objective so that players cant just sling shit out and clear the wave

Maybe, or maybe since they know its so damn powerful, they'll only do it when there is zero chance the enemy can steal and it turns into a throw, and in that case they probably could have ended with a regular baron. Meanwhile down in the lower elos comebacks because a legendary myth, a fairy tale told to gullible children.

SubdueFeb 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe, or maybe since they know its so damn powerful, they'll only do it when there is zero chance the enemy can steal and it turns into a throw, and in that case they probably could have ended with a regular baron. Meanwhile down in the lower elos comebacks because a legendary myth, a fairy tale told to gullible children.

This is another example of the facts not supporting the narrative. Games in bronze are longer than games in challenger.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

CaveslothFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This is another example of the facts not supporting the narrative. Games in bronze are longer than games in challenger.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

Ah yes, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Bronze/Silver games take longer because those players do not know how to end properly. The games are "over" much sooner than that shows with the opponent having little to no chance to comeback even if they had the will do so, which usually at least 3-4 of the players do not and want to surrender, but they just get trapped by that one plucky soul who seeing the world through rose colored glasses. Higher ranked players are much more knowledgeable and KNOW whether a game is winnable or not, and surrender appropriately, hence the lower times.

Bronze/silver players just take their time ending because they are chasing kills instead of objectives, don't group properly to end, don't baron when they should, or just flat out being dicks and not ending like cat toying with its prey (every now and again it bites them on the ass, but much less often than it should anymore).

Also if you look LCS games are the longest on that graph by a whopping 4 minutes 17 sec.

SubdueFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ah yes, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Bronze/Silver games take longer because those players do not know how to end properly. The games are "over" much sooner than that shows with the opponent having little to no chance to comeback even if they had the will do so, which usually at least 3-4 of the players do not and want to surrender, but they just get trapped by that one plucky soul who seeing the world through rose colored glasses. Higher ranked players are much more knowledgeable and KNOW whether a game is winnable or not, and surrender appropriately, hence the lower times.

Bronze/silver players just take their time ending because they are chasing kills instead of objectives, don't group properly to end, don't baron when they should, or just flat out being dicks and not ending like cat toying with its prey (every now and again it bites them on the ass, but much less often than it should anymore).

Also if you look LCS games are the longest on that graph by a whopping 4 minutes 17 sec.

Given that the disadvantaged team hasn't surrendered, that means they believe they're still in the game, regardless of what the other team is doing or not doing, which is the heart of this issue isn't it?

CaveslothFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Given that the disadvantaged team hasn't surrendered, that means they believe they're still in the game, regardless of what the other team is doing or not doing, which is the heart of this issue isn't it?

Not really. Bronze/silver players are very blind when it comes to seeing the writing on the wall, if the enemy team is up 25 kills, has baron, 2 drags, and your team hasn't taken a single objective of ANY kind, has NOBODY fed, has far less hard cc or just even cc in general than the enemy team you just lost a teamfight and there's 2 of you alive to defend the open base and you will STILL have 2 people who say "WE CAN WIN THIS NEVER SURRENDER DEEEEEEEEEERP!!!!!!!!". You can say this is hyperbole, but I've actually seen this shit.

That kinda thing just doesn't happen once you get gold and above. Of course in this scenario the surrender doesn't matter because they'll lose in less than a minute anyhow, but this kind of mindset carries back to when your odds of winning are about the same earlier in the match, when the enemy team was only up 10 kills and a drag 5-7 minutes ago, but you can't come back because they already have the power to get the next drag, baron and towers and another 15 kills and if you contest, it'll be a total clown fiesta and you'll just lose quicker, most of the players know that so they won't contest, try to turtle even though its pointless, so the loss drags on far longer than it should.

The inverse is true on the winning team, they are scared of losing don't know their own power, won't group like they should, and so they end up doing baron and drag when they didn't need it, they could have just ended without it. Factors like these will always make low elo games last longer, its just that in the past you didn't have the HARD snowball aspect, so you actually could fight from behind vs these teams that didn't know how to end and punish them for it. Now not so much.

SubdueFeb 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not really. Bronze/silver players are very blind when it comes to seeing the writing on the wall, if the enemy team is up 25 kills, has baron, 2 drags, and your team hasn't taken a single objective of ANY kind, has NOBODY fed, has far less hard cc or just even cc in general than the enemy team you just lost a teamfight and there's 2 of you alive to defend the open base and you will STILL have 2 people who say "WE CAN WIN THIS NEVER SURRENDER DEEEEEEEEEERP!!!!!!!!". You can say this is hyperbole, but I've actually seen this shit.

That kinda thing just doesn't happen once you get gold and above. Of course in this scenario the surrender doesn't matter because they'll lose in less than a minute anyhow, but this kind of mindset carries back to when your odds of winning are about the same earlier in the match, when the enemy team was only up 10 kills and a drag 5-7 minutes ago, but you can't come back because they already have the power to get the next drag, baron and towers and another 15 kills and if you contest, it'll be a total clown fiesta and you'll just lose quicker, most of the players know that so they won't contest, try to turtle even though its pointless, so the loss drags on far longer than it should.

The inverse is true on the winning team, they are scared of losing don't know their own power, won't group like they should, and so they end up doing baron and drag when they didn't need it, they could have just ended without it. Factors like these will always make low elo games last longer, its just that in the past you didn't have the HARD snowball aspect, so you actually could fight from behind vs these teams that didn't know how to end and punish them for it. Now not so much.

When you're losing, the minions push towards you, making it easier to farm. In addition, 10k gold lead is not as big a deal when it's 60k to 50k as it is when it's 30k to 20k.

Don't those two factors in conjuction with an enemy team that doesn't know how to close out the game open up the door to more come backs?

The stats actually support this hypothesis. In Bronze, the longer the game goes, the closer to 50% the stats get.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats/bronze/long

Usefully UselessFeb 22, 20182 votes

Agree 100%. I have played this game a long, long time. Didn't really try to climb hard until this season , which was going fairly smoothly until I hit a snag P1 promos , 4 times in a row. It wasn't that I lost them, it's how it felt while losing them and what unfolded during those losses. Gank top, bot dies level 3, even after return ganking the bot lane just wouldn't have what it takes to overcome an early deficit. The games are so much more snowbally than I've ever seen.

There was a post on here about the mentality of a game "being over by the 15 minute mark" and while I can say there is truth to it the majority of those games I spoke about, most games feel eerily easy or impossibly hard. Even tying up kills and gold , it just feels like an endless quagmire no matter what you do (Gank top, bot dies... gank bot, top dies) because of an early game snowball effect.

Since that P1 promo kink, I decided to take a break from jungle, my main role, and things spiraled out of control. Most of that is my fault of course but there are certainly games that fit this criteria of the thread. After this last loss , which was me getting bot , mid , and top all ahead .. It's just too much. I can't enjoy the feel of games now it's just either too easy or too impossibly hard where I don't even feel like I want to win because it is so stressful I feel like I need to be on BP meds after one or two games.

Is it matchmaking? Are we getting too big of a disparity of skill gap within players of the same MMR? Is it autofill? Is it the game in the general? Who knows, but it seems like Hashinshin might not be so crazy after all. Will be taking a break, check the forums from time time and see if this game is going in the right direction.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20182 votes

Agreed, we are often 'playing out' already won/lost games. Agreed, it's unhealthy for the game, dull to watch, and boring to play.

The problem with the game being too snowbally but too slow to close is being addressed (major buffs to baron and elder this patch), which at least makes the smartest way to finish being 'get baron' and not, 'slowly strangle them out of farm for 15 minutes until we are strong enough to seige them out.'

I would genuinely rather the game was just less snowbally. Cutting the kill gold and early game death timers would go some way to acheive this, and we could have games with enough risk and action, without having them effectively over halfway through.

I far prefer the classic sports model, we got another goal, we are that much closer to victory, as in 'we win a teamfight and are now 1 tower ahead towards victory'. What we get is 'we won a teamfight and are now 1 tower closer to victory, and massively favored to win the next teamfight too, because of this.'

The first option gives us the same amount of skill expression, it just makes each fight more interesting, and not a forgone conclusion.

DeathBurstFeb 21, 20181 votes

So, that's actually an insightful post, but I have two remarks:

Yes, this game was basically over by 10 minutes. However, what fraction of your games are really that one sided? I'd wager that's not the majority.
The distinction between the time when the game actually ends and the time were the game is virtually over but you still need to play out the foregone conclusion is very important, indeed. But Riot is fully aware of the issue and does look at that already when they study the snowballyness of the game. It was in a Dev Blog or Clarity Blog a couple years back.

TrollmanshipFeb 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

So, that's actually an insightful post, but I have two remarks:

Yes, this game was basically over by 10 minutes. However, what fraction of your games are really that one sided? I'd wager that's not the majority.

The distinction between the time when the game actually ends and the time were the game is virtually over but you still need to play out the foregone conclusion is very important, indeed. But Riot is fully aware of the issue and does look at that already when they study the snowballyness of the game. It was in a Dev Blog or Clarity Blog a couple years back.

Clearly they don't think it's an issue because for the past couple years they've been doing nothing but making it more snowbally.

GigglesOFeb 21, 20181 votes

they've been doing nothing but making it more snowbally.

Gotta end the games fast. Baron change should make games after 20 close out even faster for the winning team.

GigglesOFeb 21, 20182 votes

Seeing that it takes 10 minutes to finish a game and most of my games end around the 23 minute mark (average)

Most of them are decided easily before 15 minutes.

Games like this that are a roller coaster are very rare.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2723592630/33518097?tab=overview

Most of them are one sided enough that the enemy team never gets a turn.

jadelinkFeb 22, 20181 votes

I'm sad to say that by 15 minutes, a majority of mine are functionally over. Occasionally someone will afk or throw so hard that we could still lose it. And I'm a stubborn refuser to surrender in ranked, who plays them all out and no votes by default.

DeathBurstFeb 22, 20181 votes

That's not how I feel. Maybe due to the champs I'm playing, maybe due to the MMR I'm playing at, I don't know. But I don't feel like games are decided at the 15-minute mark.

(I mean, on average. Of course occasionally there will be such a big stomp that it is indeed decided by 15, but it's pretty rare.)

HellmetFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm sad to say that by 15 minutes, a majority of mine are functionally over. Occasionally someone will afk or throw so hard that we could still lose it. And I'm a stubborn refuser to surrender in ranked, who plays them all out and no votes by default.

I don't understand you mentality. I'm 100% agree that by 15 minutes you can predict the outcome with 80 to 90% certainty. I've played enough games where I understand that continuing to play after that is a complete waste of time and if you are on the losing end an extremely painful experience. So I have to ask, why not surrender to save yourself 20 to 30 minutes in which you can start a new game that you might enjoy?

I just don't understand the mentality of never surrendering, it's like you take pleasure in getting something rammed up your arse over and over again. Or is this just an admission that you get enjoyment from trolling other players and forcing them to spend the next 20 minutes getting basically humiliated?

This is what I do not understand about league players, the other team could have a 10-0-3 Riven at the 15 minute mark, you know 100% that there is nobody on your team that is going to stop that player. That Riven will carry and destroy every member.. at this stage of the game it's not about winning or losing anymore.. the Riven is playing to see if they can get a pentakill.. or if they can reach 20 or 30 kills. Why would you continue to play in that game? I'm honestly asking because I have been in many... many games where people wont surrender thinking they are going to have some kind of amazing comeback that may happen .5% of the time and only when somebody on the other team trolls or afks.

Is it a parent thing? Are mom and dads saying "son, you can only play 1 game of league then you have to do your homework". I just truly don't understand.

Usefully UselessFeb 22, 20181 votes

Just want to put my 2 cents in here, feel free to leave feelback.

I "try" not to surrender any game because of from history of being a Zac jungle main I know that if we can stabilize the game until mid-late ish one engage and ult from me can really change the tide.

HOWEVER..... the last few weeks that has drastically changed because even with a perfect engage people are usually so downspirited from the feel of the game that they don't really try so much and really no damage comes out and it's the same result.

To me I feel like the snowbally effect of the game is exponentially increased by rift herald also. Example would be , bot snowballs gets tower at 9-10 mins, switches top. Jungler gets rift, snowballed bot kills or pushes top in + rift herald = T2 turret minimum. Seems too punishing to recover from.