Honestly, I think Hurricane is the problem

Rebonack·Dec 28, 2016·73 votes·4,204 views

Previously if you wanted AoE on a kit that didn't have it, you were giving up something for it. Hurricane was a pure attack speed stat-stick, so by buying it you were sacrificing a Crit item, a lifesteal item, a penetration item, or a defensive item. That's a real opportunity cost right there. By making it into an equivalent of Phantom Dancer, suddenly you're sacrificing nothing in its purchase.

I can see three potential options here.

Turn it back into a pure attack speed item and improve its magic OnHit damage a bit to better synergize with Wit's, Nashor's, and Rageblade (all items people who used to buy it liked). would be a fine build.
Keep the crit, but remove the side bolts completely. Instead, make the item grant some sort of crit interaction with OnHit effects (which would probably mean gets nerfed some more).
Just removing the thing from the game. It's causing health issues and drastically warping its worst abusers.

116 Comments

WoonStruckDec 28, 201616 votes

A large part of the problem is how all of the Zeal items have nearly the same stats as before, went down ~400g in price, and all gained powerful passives/passive changes.

All of them scale stupidly with crit, and in Runaan's case multiplies lifesteal which is already multiplied by crit and AD.

RebonackDec 28, 20166 votes

{quoted}

A large part of the problem is how all of the Zeal items have nearly the same stats as before, went down ~400g in price, and all gained powerful passives/passive changes.

All of them scale stupidly with crit, and in Runaan's case multiplies lifesteal which is already multiplied by crit and AD.

Do keep in mind that Marksmen lost ~50 raw AD between scaling AD nerfs, changes to masteries, and changes to items.

But then Riot went and added 64 raw AD back in. I don't pretend to understand how the thought process of the Live Balance Team works.

WoonStruckDec 28, 20164 votes

And the insane amount of crit chance they got more than makes up for it, especially with keystones favoring ADCs so much more than other classes.

ADCs with crit and lifesteal are a major issue, and I'm surprised Riot hasn't noticed that every other MOBA makes crit/lifesteal mutually exclusive on any specific attack they proc on.

Other games also make lifesteal RNG in most cases, like reverse crit. And also have dodge. This is all to keep both lifesteal, crit, and dodge all in line with each other.

Riot removing dodge and the RNG factor of lifesteal, along with allowing crit/lifesteal to stack, made the game heavily favor crit, which is why **EVERY SINGLE CRIT CHAMP IN THE GAME HAS BEEN A MAJOR BALANCE ISSUE AT SOME POINT. **

And Riot still refuses to revisit crit/lifesteal.

They remain completely silent on the issue, no matter how big of an issue they prove to be at any given time.

PermabannedGarenDec 29, 20166 votes

{quoted}

And the insane amount of crit chance they got more than makes up for it, especially with keystones favoring ADCs so much more than other classes.

ADCs with crit and lifesteal are a major issue, and I'm surprised Riot hasn't noticed that every other MOBA makes crit/lifesteal mutually exclusive on any specific attack they proc on.

Other games also make lifesteal RNG in most cases, like reverse crit. And also have dodge. This is all to keep both lifesteal, crit, and dodge all in line with each other.

So like, what "every other MOBA/other games" are you talking about?

Because lifesteal is calculated after critical strikes in Dota 2, so crits do in fact increase your lifesteal. It's why Satanic is such a good item on heroes like Juggernaut or Phantom Assassin, and part of why Wraith King is so hard to kill (he gets crits and lifesteal from his kit). Smite also has crits increase your lifesteal. Heroes of the Storm doesn't really have crits the same way League, Heroes of the Storm, or Smite do, but crit-esque talents (like Sonya's focused attack and follow-through talents) also increase the amount your lifesteal heals.

And other games make lifesteal RNG? Like what, lol? Dota 2, Smite, and Heroes of the Storm do not make lifesteal RNG.

As far as dodge goes, even in Dota 2 it is a relatively rare stat, with only IIRC Phantom Assassin having it in her kit and with it being provided by purchasing butterfly, and even then late game the stat is completely nullified once a carry buys a monkey king bar.

Smite to my recollection does not have dodge at all, and in Heroes of the Storm Illidan's E is the only ability that gives dodge (and even then it's not really the same thing, it just makes all basic attacks miss rather than giving them a chance to, no RNG).

What MOBAs are you talking about?

Riot removing dodge and the RNG factor of lifesteal, along with allowing crit/lifesteal to stack, made the game heavily favor crit, which is why **EVERY SINGLE CRIT CHAMP IN THE GAME HAS BEEN A MAJOR BALANCE ISSUE AT SOME POINT. **

Sorry friend, but the premise of your argument is frankly false, so why should anyone accept the conclusion.

So do you like, bring up other MOBAs and then lie about them, hoping that people haven't played them or something...? Because what you said is completely false when talking about the top three non-League MOBAS, which I believe Dota 2, Smite, and Heroes are.

Teridax68Dec 28, 201610 votes

Back when Runaan's had no crit interaction, it was a super-niche item that was unattractive on all but a handful of champions who could use it to propagate their on-hit effects. Now, it's both a crit and an on-hit item, yet its largest issues come from it being able to triple an autoattacker's on-hit power: Caitlyn, of all champions, is the biggest abuser of Runaan's right now, because purchasing it allows her to Headshot every 3 attacks, rather than every 7, and Jinx can use it to either nullify the windup to her minigun, giving herself 30 - 140% bonus attack speed with a single attack, or launch three rockets at once, with no mitigation on the bonus damage. Twitch's on-hit use is more acceptable, but the multi-shot on his ult means he can effectively end up doing more damage to secondary enemies than to his main target.

Runaan's is an issue, but I think the larger issue is with on-hit as a system, which consistently becomes abusive the moment it becomes strong, to the point where a champion had to have their rework reverted simply because they were doing too well with on-hit (i.e. Kog'Maw). I think it's acceptable for the item to fire side bolts, since that's its entire fantasy, but I think its secondary bolts should no longer apply on-hit effects, which would tone down the abuse. Runaan's should be picked specifically to damage multiple enemies at once, not to exploit the particularities of a fragile set of mechanics, and beyond that, the champions who abuse it should also have some parts of their kit looked into, since a lot of their effects should be on-attack (i.e. apply only once per attack), rather than on-hit (i.e. apply once per application of an attack).

Champion SkinDec 28, 20164 votes

Runaan's is an issue, but I think the larger issue is with on-hit as a system, which consistently becomes abusive the moment it becomes strong, to the point where a champion had to have their rework reverted simply because they were doing too well with on-hit (i.e. Kog'Maw).

Well actually the biggest problem with Kog'maw and on-hit wasn't the fact that on-hit is that bad.... but the fact that Kog'maw being so amazing with on-hit effects makes on-hit items either absurdly OP on kog'maw or incredibly weak on everyone except kog'maw (for the most part)

Teridax68Dec 28, 20164 votes

But that's the thing, though, other champions make tremendous use of a particular stat or effect, yet don't need to be controlled in the same manner. Yasuo is but one example, and him being able to a) randomly crit on an ability (Gangplank does this too) and b) massively amplify crit purchases, while not generally popular, isn't a reason cited for a potential rework. Meanwhile, items like Devourer, Feral Flare, Madred's Bloodrazor, even Blade of the Ruined King have all caused problems when they were strong or just in the game, simply because they became abusive when coupled with high amounts of attack speed, or special champions who can make above-average use of on-hit. Riot has deliberately shied away from making any recent champion scale too hard with on-hit, and I feel it's because the system might need some design work in the future, as it's not really easy to make each autoattack apply a meaningful effect besides damage.

Champion SkinDec 29, 20162 votes

Yasuo is but one example, and him being able to a) randomly crit on an ability (Gangplank does this too) and b) massively amplify crit purchases, while not generally popular, isn't a reason cited for a potential rework.

Yasuo Crit really isn't that OP? all it does is basically make his auto attacks more powerful but only after he buys a certain stat Yasuo who buys 50% crit gets +80% increased AA damage while other champions would only gain +50% increased AA damage (on average)... it isn't that powerful (though it does make crit more reliable and less random which as far as I am concerned is a good thing) (also his Q damage would be increased by 50%)

The main problem with on-hit is that it only scale with AS (and on-hit items have AS).... which means it often ends up way to strong early on making it oppressive but potentialy weak later on (at least compared with crit builds) or just useless all around However Rageblade and Hurricane helps since it gives on-hit something to scale off which isn't just AS

as it's not really easy to make each autoattack apply a meaningful effect besides damage.

But most on-hit effects are just simple damage? (just that it doesn't work with crit or life steal like AD does)

Teridax68Dec 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TiGqRo9U,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-29T00:58:23.467+0000)

Yasuo Crit really isn't that OP?

That's my point: Yasuo can permanently double his crit chance, thereby getting about 50-75% extra value out of the crit he builds, and crit on Qs, and still be alright. When Kog'Maw temporarily doubles the application of his on-hit effects, it becomes really abusive, and when an item makes on-hit just 50% better, it needs to have that effect locked behind a much harsher time gate. Even a system as maligned and antiquated as crit is less fragile than on-hit when it comes to playing with its values.

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TiGqRo9U,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-29T00:58:23.467+0000)

The main problem with on-hit is that it only scale with AS (and on-hit items have AS).... which means it often ends up way to strong early on making it oppressive but potentialy weak later on (at least compared with crit builds) or just useless all around However Rageblade and Hurricane helps since it gives on-hit something to scale off which isn't just AS

Sure, but the problem ends up being that on-hit still scales only with one stat, but happens to spike with a few extra items. On-hit used to be the late-game build for autoattackers, which is why Koggles is an on-hit champion, but its power curve skews towards the mid game, whereas crit scales off of three separate stats (crit, AD and attack speed), plus some extra items. The vast majority of item on-hit effects are just damage, which is pseudo-AD, and life steal, the only exceptions being Frozen Mallet's on-hit slow, which is particularly unhealthy whenever it's prominent, in a manner similar to Rylai's own CC, Wit's End's MR shred, which is useful only on a very select few champions, and Guinsoo's stacks, which include more AD. Building on-hit just means focusing on attack speed and nothing else, and doesn't generate particularly rich or interesting gameplay.

dunder killDec 28, 20167 votes

which would probably mean gets nerfed some more

Dude you are completely clueless. Vayne doesn't build hurricane. Never has. It doesnt proc her silver bolts.

Hurricane is completely fine. Out of the top 10 most popular ADCs, like 3-4 of them actually build hurricane. Zeal items are probably the most balanced they've ever been as far as all of them getting used equally.

Instead we get a thread about how vayne is being drastically warped by an item that she never buys.

The boards are comedy gold sometimes hahaha

RebonackDec 28, 201623 votes

{quoted}

Dude you are completely clueless. Vayne doesn't build hurricane. Never has. It doesnt proc her silver bolts.

I'm going to explain this simply, as one might to a child.

If Hurricane lost its secondary bolts (because AoE on kits not designed for it is bad) and instead got a passive that caused OnHit effects to Phantom Hit on critical strikes, it would likely require Vayne nerfs because that would interact with Silverbolts. Just like Devourer did. Just like Rageblade does now.

Hurricane is completely fine. Out of the top 10 most popular ADCs, like 3-4 of them actually build hurricane. Zeal items are probably the most balanced they've ever been.

Instead we get a thread about how vayne is being drastically warped by an item that she never buys.

That isn't what this topic is about, but okay.

The boards are comedy gold sometimes hahaha

I agree completely.

serenity7Dec 28, 20166 votes

Even if Vayne does or doesn't build Hurricane, the item is still broken. This item has caused problems with Caitlyn Twitch KogMaw Jinx Kalista Kayle . Currently the abusers are mainly Caitlyn Twitch . They should remove the on hit effects from the side bolts.

RebonackDec 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Even if Vayne does or doesn't build Hurricane, the item is still broken. This item has caused problems with . Currently the abusers are mainly . They should remove the on hit effects from the side bolts.

That's another thing they could do, yes. It wouldn't stop it from being any less broken on Jinx and Twitch, though, since their damage is coming from their raw destructive power rather than OnHit effects.

RavenMagusDec 28, 20164 votes

Actually, it would significantly affect both.

Part of why it's so strong on Twitch is it allows him to spread tons of poison stacks with that + his ult, allowing him to hit max stack Expunge on multiple targets very quickly.

And on Jinx it allows rocket explosions on secondary targets, which beyond just ridiculous levels of AOE also means she's doing extra damage to her main target too if they're hit by the miniature rocket explosions. Even before Runaans was a PD clone I sometimes built Runaans as a 4th or 5th item on Jinx just due to the surprising extra power those mini rockets gave her.

If Runaan's were to be changed, I would like to at least see the on-hit procs stay because that's been the item's main identity for a long time. If that's too good to have in any incarnation, then just remove the darn thing.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 28, 20165 votes

hurricane was worthless before

there is no problem with it now.

you do give up the range of rapid fire cannon or speed and defense of phantom dancer, so acting like there's no tradeoff is a lie. the fact that its good on a few adcs does not mean its broken, lol

Dragonborn739Dec 29, 20164 votes

The only champions that actually abuse this are Ashe Caitlyn and Twitch . It's in their core build and honestly Cait needs it to effectively stack her passive in teamfights. Twitch could be said to be abusing it, but Ashe isn't broken with it.

ModCaptainMårvelousDec 29, 20163 votes

We could always make it so hurricane doesn't give you the benefit of boosting your "After X attacks" spells

Cait's Headshot and Ashe's Focus are the two spells that seem to really fuck with Hurricane's balance. If it stopped giving you stacks it'd hurt Cait/Ashe but not be as crushing on champs like Twitch, Kalista or Jinx (Who aren't as good/seen as those two.)

DepártDec 29, 20161 votes

Hurricane doesn't stack Ashe's Q faster.

It's just Caitlyn and MAYBE Jinx, but Jinx is in a bad spot along with every other ADC so nerfing her best zeal item is an awful idea.

ModCaptainMårvelousDec 29, 20161 votes

Huh, it doesn't? Swore it did.

Either way, could make it so that Cait doesn't get the benefit by making her headshot an on-hit or something of that regard. It also takes away thematically how she's a sniper when she's landing a headshot every two hits because of hurricane.

the weeabooDec 29, 20163 votes

Nerf the already weak and anti-fun ADC role even further? Are you kiddin?

This item is a must have on every ADC except Vayne Quinn and Ezreal

You want to break the role?

RebonackDec 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Nerf the already weak and anti-fun ADC role even further? Are you kiddin?

This item is a must have on every ADC except and

You want to break the role?

I play pretty much nothing but Kog.

Hurricane needs to go for exactly the same reason why Kog's double attack speed W had to go. It warps kits and itemization alike.

the weeabooDec 29, 20162 votes

Yeah and its been like that for a long time. What happens when you take the farming tool away from ADCs? When you remove their teamfight damage? When suddenly every ADC but Vayne, Quinn, Ezreal, and Jhin are unviable? ADCs have been balanced around Hurricane for patches upon patches. You cant just remove all its functionality and expect everything to go smooth.

Anyway if you want pure attack speed like the OP said, Phantom Dancer would just be the better option. If you take away Hurricane youre gonna have to completely rework ADC itemization.

RebonackDec 29, 20162 votes

{quoted} If you take away Hurricane youre gonna have to completely rework ADC itemization.

Probably.

101100111000Dec 29, 20165 votes

I mean, yes, let's rework ADC itemization one more time.

It's not like there aren't 3 other Zeal items ADCs could build.

Irelia BotDec 29, 20163 votes

I still fail to see how they are actually weak.

DepártDec 29, 20162 votes

Probably because you lack eyes or your monitor is turned off

Irelia BotDec 29, 20162 votes

Please enlighten me.

DepártDec 29, 20161 votes

Let's see,

God awful itemization, ending up back in base without 1300 gold (which happens quite often due to roams and ganks bot) basically fucks over your lane, you're forced to either buy nothing or just concede your chance of winning lane and go for cull.

There is almost nothing for 90% of adcs to build out of longswords, which as can be seen from season 6, when ADC can build out of longswords they can actually impact the game before 30 minutes.

Right now it's stuck to extremely slowly scaling crit builds and high cost items like essence reaver being built first.

Bot lane turret has no extra protection early like other turrets, this is the main cause of constant 5 man ganks and roams bot, it feels terrible to play the role because of it.

If you get 5 man ganked and lose first turret and most likely dragon too, the game often snowballs out of control with little to nothing you can do about it.

Almost every single ADC has been nerfed repeatedly since the marksman rework, leaving them basically in the dirt (see Lucian, Kalista, Sivir, Ashe) the constant item nerfs and mastery nerfs on top of that didn't help either.
Every other class has much cheaper items, hitting again on the itemization point.

Essence Reaver costs 3600 gold for a relatively weak power spike, while Sunfire costs 2900 and allows you to be pretty much invincible to someone who has essence reaver, which is 700 more than you payed for your item.

ADC items are too expensive to everything else.

Irelia BotDec 29, 20163 votes

first point need I bring up BF sword or Zeal? Both arte 1300 and a reasonable power boost for the cost.

I agree with the weaker turret point. Furst turret gold and making bot turret the ideal target is a problem.

The fundamentals of marksmen being ranged and relying on auto attacking with AD, attack speed, crit and armor pen as factors for scaling damage instate of many champs 3 or 2 keeps their power relevant but takes longer to become a threat.

Cheaper does not mean better. I want Frozen heart, warmogs and omen to be what they were in season 2 but instead they are cheaper but also weaker. You pay for the higher damage scaling on ADC items.

DepártDec 29, 20162 votes

It doesn't matter if BF and zeal are good, they're too expensive to not have a build path. Zeal atleast builds out of something smaller, Zeal isn't a problem. BF sword is just a flat 1300 gold with no build path, leaving you largely vulnerable to getting fucked out of the game before you even get your first back off.

Tank items aren't weaker, they're way better than AD items up until 5-6, and that 5 has to include a bonus armor pen item. They're cheap while also spiking harder on 1-4 buys. AD items are more expensive and aren't effective until 3-6.

I'm fine with ADC needing to scale up, all of their items multiple off of eachother for that reason.

What needs to change is build pathing, and maybe prices lowered slightly on ER, IE and BT.

You need late game to be relevant, but you can't make it there because you're a gold farm before 30 minutes. Why pick ADC if you're never going to make it to the point where you're actually worth having (hence the ziggs bot shenanigans that shiphtur and a lot of ADC players in high elo are toying with currently)

Irelia BotDec 29, 20161 votes

Would you rather BFsword cost 1650 again?

DepártDec 29, 20161 votes

I'd rather it build out of longswords.

I would also like to point out BF being 1650 wasn't as bad as it sounds upfront, there was no constant ganking and roaming on bot lane, and dragon was a global gold objective, meaning securing it nets you a quicker buy on it.

There weren't near as many ganks bot lane as there are now, losing your bot lane pretty much means losing the game now.

I would much prefer the meta where I need extra gold to get an item, but can reliably get that item.

NineTailedMysticDec 29, 20161 votes

If BF builds out of Longswords, I want NLR to build out of Amp Tomes.

DepártDec 29, 20162 votes

Almost every mage/ap assassin item already builds out of amp tomes, if not all.

ADC is not in such a state, we can't just get a couple longswords on a bad back.

The only ADC this is really possible on is Jhin with Ghostblade, as every other ADC really doesn't want to use it after the changes made to it.

NineTailedMysticDec 29, 20162 votes

I'd rather have Pickaxe build out of two Longswords than BF. BF and NLR have always been the mirror of each other in the high cost, no component, high power items. It just doesn't seem fair to have ADs to suddenly break this tradition and get longsword(s) to build out of..

AirKingNeoDec 29, 20161 votes

ADC is terrible right now. Like I know you're not anything Plat above and neither am I, but the difference is I look at statistics instead of board's circlejerk. ADC is stupidly weak right now. Name me 5 good ADC champions. You can't. Only 3 are decently good.

Irelia BotDec 30, 20162 votes

You are not even using points to support your stance. You are just saying they are weak.

NGNL AsianJan 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

ADC is terrible right now. Like I know you're not anything Plat above and neither am I, but the difference is I look at statistics instead of board's circlejerk. ADC is stupidly weak right now. Name me 5 good ADC champions. You can't. Only 3 are decently good.

Caitlyn, Twitch, Ezreral, Vayne, and jinx. Caitlyn can peel for herself While twitch has insane burst Ezreal builds hp/armor and can also get maw without being punished hard, which makes him like the adc that can play safe the most Vayne has 100000k outplay potential Jinx can also peel for herself pretty well

AirKingNeoJan 1, 20171 votes

So like, you listed the 5 ADCs that spike the best off 4 items. We're in a meta of ADC tries to hit 4 items and becomes relevant. You only listed the 5 ones who are best at that. Oh and Jinx is the worst of those 5.

NGNL AsianJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So like, you listed the 5 ADCs that spike the best off 4 items. We're in a meta of ADC tries to hit 4 items and becomes relevant. You only listed the 5 ones who are best at that. Oh and Jinx is the worst of those 5.

The fact that you said late game adcs were nerfed out a year ago is ironic. The fact that they still remain dominant if they kite well and position correctly late game shows that your statement is wrong. And Sivir's not a bad pick at all, she has the ability to survive longer than many adcs due to her spell shield and ult. And Jhin and lucian isnt useless, they're still very strong if you play right

DJMason88Dec 29, 20163 votes

MissFortune Lucian Corki Draven Jhin You forgot quite a bit.

10TicklerDec 29, 20163 votes

Crit removal would be the best outcome, honestly, give it 5% more AS and 1% more damage per 10 AD or something like that, and people like Jinx would stop rushing it first thing, and actually be able to HAVE a laning phase that lasts more than 10 minutes

Irelia BotDec 29, 20162 votes

Recurve Bow + Recurve Bow + 600 gold 70% attack speed UNIQUE – WIND'S FURY: When Basic attacking, bolts are fired at up to 2 enemies near the target, each dealing 25% AD physical damage. Bolts can Critical strike and apply on-hit effects. Unique: 30 + 1 for every 8 bonus AD magic damage on hit.

It would be better then it was before crit was on it but not mandatory on most marksmen.

10TicklerDec 29, 20162 votes

Can apply non-AOE On-hit effects

badoogaDec 28, 20162 votes

The idea of the side bolts is fine. However, it shouldn't interact with AA-modifying passives such as Jinx Q and Caitlyn passive. Furthermore, I honestly think that the bolts shouldn't apply to minions, so that you actually have to use abilities or get item 3087 for more waveclear.

RebonackDec 28, 20166 votes

{quoted}

The idea of the side bolts is fine. However, it shouldn't interact with AA-modifying passives such as Q and passive. Furthermore, I honestly think that the bolts shouldn't apply to minions, so that you actually have to use abilities or get for more waveclear.

It does create something of a conflict of interest, doesn't it? Shiv is supposed to be the waveclear item after all.

RavenMagusDec 28, 20163 votes

Shiv itself has a very confused identity. The static shock can crit and RFC's can't, which means it does more damage to a single target than the supposed single target variant, RFC. So it's supposed to be the waveclear item, but it is actually the single target damage item.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 28, 20163 votes

RFC is more about the safety of long range

DepártDec 29, 20163 votes

RFC is mainly for extra damage and range in siege scenarios, it works on structures while shiv doesnt.