I know turrets are always a hot topic and changes have been done last season to accommodate towards weak Turret dmg.
However, for this current mastery page and a new 4-man-dive-Meta Turrets are NOT scary.
Turrets are weak, worth 400 gold, and MELT just by looking at them.
Turrets should hit much Harder like they do in Twisted Treeline. They melt ANY HP and ANY armor.
MAKE TURRETS GREAT AGAIN 2017!
Möral Support50 votesTurrets should ignore 75% of all armor until like 15 minutes. This would deter early dives.
Anidan4 votesSo basically have everyone just turtle for 15 minutes..? Because diving at that point is just going to be incredibly reckless unless they can kill you in 1 or 2 seconds - and some champions simply won't die that quickly.
Karn Bishop20 votesBack when turrets used to be punishing for dives i did still dive it is just that i had to pick the right champion to do it and my laner actually had to be winning lane hard enough for it to be successful, right now i can dive enemy laners when my allied laner only had 40% of his hp left and still pull it off successfully which feels wrong in general.
Now maybe i could overlook weak outer and inner turrets if inhib turrets had something special to them like armor ignore and slightly increased fire rate.
RiotNot Surrendering29 votesI think we want to both preserve the sanctity of laning phase as well as allowing for progression in game state.
If bot lane is both low, I think it's completely appropriate to be able to have a 3v2 dive with the minion wave, kill both and escape. Without the minion wave, should be very difficult.
I think if bot is both full health, neither outcome should be guaranteed in a 3v2 (or 4v3) dive (there should be outplay potential on both sides), but in a 4v2 dive, I would expect both players to die.
Personally, I think 4v2 dives are very telegraphed and you have ample time to leave if jungle isn't there to countergank (or at least ward to prepare and call mid lane to prepare for rotation and get cleanup).
I think it's unreasonable to expect a turret to defend you from a 4v2 dive with a minion wave (turret would pretty much have to 3 hit KO you), but if defense in a full health 2v3 or 3v4 is failing, that's something we can look at.
Skias23 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-01-01T19:42:03.980+0000)
I think we want to both preserve the sanctity of laning phase as well as allowing for progression in game state.
If bot lane is both low, I think it's completely appropriate to be able to have a 3v2 dive with the minion wave, kill both and escape. Without the minion wave, should be very difficult.
I think if bot is both full health, neither outcome should be guaranteed in a 3v2 (or 4v3) dive (there should be outplay potential on both sides), but in a 4v2 dive, I would expect both players to die.
Personally, I think 4v2 dives are very telegraphed and you have ample time to leave if jungle isn't there to countergank (or at least ward to prepare and call mid lane to prepare for rotation and get cleanup).
I think it's unreasonable to expect a turret to defend you from a 4v2 dive with a minion wave (turret would pretty much have to 3 hit KO you), but if defense in a full health 2v3 or 3v4 is failing, that's something we can look at.
There is some pretty goofy dives that succeed these days. Champs with no armor and small health pools diving turrets and surviving. It just seems like turrets aren't so much weak as they are slow as balls. Like painfully slow to do anything in a game that feels like it is only getting faster in tempo. So many mobility moves are .5 second dashes and blinks. Have you guys experimented with speeding up shots and targeting instead of increasing health and damage? Also shattering defense after 5 shots or something would make it so the 4k health tank can't just tank 20 shots. I get being able to tank it longer because you're beefy but removing a mechanic completely because of a stat check is pretty meh.
RiotNot Surrendering13 votesWe experimented for quite a while with a change to fundamental turret rules, specifically "turret memory". Essentially if you ever took aggro, you would go on a "shitlist" and the turret would resume attacking you if it ever dropped aggro from another target.
It ended up being very confusing (and a lot more complexity for relatively little gain) and we had some unfortunate side effects with clones and summons. For example - if I use Tibbers to aggro someone and then walk him out, should the turret then attack Annie even before she casts anything? Same with Zyra plants, voidlings.
For Shaco clone, turret always knows which one is real, so if a clone draws aggro, Turret should attack the real Shaco, so you always know which one is real.
I would say there are still improvements to be made to turrets - out of the ones you mentioned, increasing attack speed and lowering damage seems promising?
The Yetii Rider6 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a00000000,timestamp=2017-01-01T20:48:43.891+0000)
We experimented for quite a while with a change to fundamental turret rules, specifically "turret memory". Essentially if you ever took aggro, you would go on a "shitlist" and the turret would resume attacking you if it ever dropped aggro from another target.
It ended up being very confusing (and a lot more complexity for relatively little gain) and we had some unfortunate side effects with clones and summons. For example - if I use Tibbers to aggro someone and then walk him out, should the turret then attack Annie even before she casts anything? Same with Zyra plants, voidlings.
For Shaco clone, turret always knows which one is real, so if a clone draws aggro, Turret should attack the real Shaco, so you always know which one is real.
I would say there are still improvements to be made to turrets - out of the ones you mentioned, increasing attack speed and lowering damage seems promising?
WHAT? You're giving up on turret memory entirely?
Fuck, that was the only thing that gave me hope that Season 7 would be fun to watch. You need to come up with something that doesn't guarantee Elise gets away with every turret dive under the sun. Her ability to press a button and just go untargetable, then let the minions move on makes her extremely unfair in the early game at the highest levels.
Hello I am Bird3 votes
"Yeah uh... let's nerf her"
Hige25 voteslowering damage??????????????? bro, the only turret that feels "right" is that one from twisted treeline that's right next to the nexus, that's how turrets should attack or at least make a summoner spell that turns a turret into that, fortify was awesome because of the high attack rate but overpowered because of the invincibility of the turrets, mind you.
Baron Perenolde13 votesDon't expect anything useful from FE, this is the guy who couldn't understand why people were upset over Lee Sin's love tap nerfs being too lenient.
RiotNot Surrendering9 votesI should probably change my name... Spaghetti Enthusiast :D
XVI Jake IVX3 votesBUT! :( I like your name <3 I also gave you a shout out for being 1/2 rioters active on front page of boards! :D Just read the post :P
http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1388392563990018872.jpg
Decrit2 votesholy shit, salty much?
maybe he was just, you know, asking? asking stuff is always better at guessing. Unless you are a good assistant game designer with the gift of foresight.
LankPants7 votesThe problem is that he created a sort of Scarecrow argument on the Lee Sin issue.
The argument he created for people against Lee Sin was "why don't you ever nerf Lee Sin", which noone was arguing. The actual argument on the tread was "why does Lee Sin get consideration over other champions".
The problem is that Fizz Enthusiast utterly failed to understand the argument of the people he was trying to argue against. It doesn't take foresight to understand the argument of the other side, it take a basic level of research. If he'd have read what people were saying about Lee Sin rather than simply assuming a position he'd probably have been fine.
Sexy Jack Rabbit4 votesCan vouch this as really accurate and correct.
People were asking "Why does the balance team nerf strong champions, as opposed to just buffing those that are under performing?"
and in that same breathe people asked that if Lee Sin is not allowed to be nerfed due to the Balancing department wanting him to be strong enough for competitive, why can't other champions just be made better?
and then replied with a spiel about Diversity in Competitive play and about how certain champions need to be reworked in order or them to be viable in the competitive meta WHICH LITERALLY NO ONE ASKED ABOUT.
I think he just saw the word 'competitive' and assumed it was an argument about diversity, and when he realized his mistake, just left the the fire he started.
RiotNot Surrendering5 votesSorry i meant "increasing attack speed and lowering damage" - together. Means that turrets are more consistent at defending (and less game-able). However, can slightly lower skill expression for champs like Riven and Trynd (sometimes runs back to turret to take the last turret hit before ult falls off) that rely on diving and surviving the last turret shot.
LankPants4 votesIt also completely changes the way how CSing under towers works. I'd argue that this is fundamental to the game and actually more important than the actual strength of towers.
TotalJerk2 votesTurrets were already changed to do percent HP damage on minions, so lowering their AD has no impact on that front.
Nameless Voice2 votesSpeaking of which, I'd love to see that damage tweaked further so that low-AD champions (such as certain mages and supports) can actually use the standard "two tower shots and an auto" to last-hit melee minions. That often doesn't work right now because of their low AD not being enough to finish a minion after two two shots.
Cosmic Warper4 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-01-01T19:42:03.980+0000)
I think we want to both preserve the sanctity of laning phase as well as allowing for progression in game state.
If bot lane is both low, I think it's completely appropriate to be able to have a 3v2 dive with the minion wave, kill both and escape. Without the minion wave, should be very difficult.
I think if bot is both full health, neither outcome should be guaranteed in a 3v2 (or 4v3) dive (there should be outplay potential on both sides), but in a 4v2 dive, I would expect both players to die.
Personally, I think 4v2 dives are very telegraphed and you have ample time to leave if jungle isn't there to countergank (or at least ward to prepare and call mid lane to prepare for rotation and get cleanup).
I think it's unreasonable to expect a turret to defend you from a 4v2 dive with a minion wave (turret would pretty much have to 3 hit KO you), but if defense in a full health 2v3 or 3v4 is failing, that's something we can look at.
You should watch some streams. Some of the dives nowadays are pretty insane. Last night sneaky got dove by a jarvan with his bot lane while he was caitlyn and had a janna as support. The jarvan got out with like half hp and both cait and janna died..then ekko and another champ on jarvan's team teleported in and wrecked the rest of the team near dragon pit. It was pretty stupid to watch
RiotNot Surrendering10 votesThat one didn't look too bad to me. Kennen flash ulted and he went back for the minions when he saw they were all at drag. Could have easily left or if Janna had a deeper ward maybe they escape.
I would agree bot is most likely to get dived though, because double the reward. I do watch a lot of high ELO games though - would say there are some dives that do look pretty dicey to me, but most are usually OK.
Rivuo16 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a00010000,timestamp=2017-01-01T20:16:23.444+0000)
That one didn't look too bad to me. Kennen flash ulted and he went back for the minions when he saw they were all at drag. Could have easily left or if Janna had a deeper ward maybe they escape.
I would agree bot is most likely to get dived though, because double the reward. I do watch a lot of high ELO games though - would say there are some dives that do look pretty dicey to me, but most are usually OK.
So just leave your tower and let them get first tower blood + dragon?
Alright.
RiotNot Surrendering10 votesIf a team is ahead and roams first, either you could counter-roam and countergank or if mid roams for a 4v2 bottom, then can bring jungler to mid and take mid turret.
I've seen many games that go for a dicey 4v2 dive, it goes poorly and then either mid and jg clean up or they get mid tower, because they got a head start while they are setting up the dive.
Either way, I wouldn't say it's in any way guaranteed (also they might get first turret gold, but if you get mid and top turret and they are losing farm - you might end up ahead overall).
Rivuo23 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-01T20:54:08.698+0000)
If a team is ahead and roams first, either you could counter-roam and countergank or if mid roams for a 4v2 bottom, then can bring jungler to mid and take mid turret.
Jungler and mid on mid tower < mid jungler support an adc on your bot tower + dragon + double kill
I've seen many games that go for a dicey 4v2 dive, it goes poorly and then either mid and jg clean up or they get mid tower, because they got a head start while they are setting up the dive.
I have yet to see a failed 4v2 if they do fail then i dont know what to say, i think anyone past gold can do a successful 4v2.
Either way, I wouldn't say it's in any way guaranteed (also they might get first turret gold, but if you get mid and top turret and they are losing farm - you might end up ahead overall).
I'm just saying these 4v2s are too common in bot lane and i hate it.
Spoofghoul18 votesbut they only lvl 2/3 and mid turret still has fortification
and even if it didn't
taking a turret on lvl 3 with no real damage output yet within the minion wave is pretty dumb, yet here we are
Baron Perenolde2 votesIf a team is ahead and roams first, either you could counter-roam and countergank or if mid roams for a 4v2 bottom, then can bring jungler to mid and take mid turret.
So if we're behind (and since bot lane gets outleveled by jungle and mid, this is guaranteed), you're saying that we should roam. Sweet, free wandering gold for the enemy team! Being behind means that it's even riskier to go out and ward choke points and objectives because chances are YOUR stuff is already preemptively warded. And lol, the jungler and a mid laner are going to outpush a 4-5 man push at bot? You're joking, right? Even if that somehow goes well, you trade one turret for 2 kills, a turret and dragon. Yeah, sounds like a great trade.
I've seen many games that go for a dicey 4v2 dive, it goes poorly and then either mid and jg clean up or they get mid tower, because they got a head start while they are setting up the dive.
In low elo such as mine, right? Because i fail to see how a coordinated 4-man dive fails in diamond+ on two underleveled laners unless the four were below half hp or something stupid. There's just too little risk for the huge gains you can get from crashing bot lane.
Not guaranteed? I take it you haven't played support or adc lately or ever. By the time we are level 5, the jungler and mid laner are 6, loaded with ults and with their eyes set on that easy bot lane gold. There is no stopping a Ziggs ult or Zac dive or Hecarim ult when you're a level 5 support and adc. The bot lane meta sucks right now and I sincerely hope that nobody on the Riot balance team thinks otherwise; otherwise I fear for the future of this game.
RiotNot Surrendering10 votesNah, I'm saying mid can follow and if all lanes are losing (ie. enemy bot has priority to push you in + mid can roam without being followed + your jungle doesn't have priority) then yeah, you probably have to give up the turret). Bot usually can't/shouldn't roam, just has to play a bit more cautiously if they're receiving a lot of attention.
I've been Diamond for ~3.5 seasons and an AD main for at least half of it and I can say with great confidence that 4v2 dives get botched a lot more than you'd think. Sometimes they go for it, then jungle counterganks from a good angle (eg. unseen from lane or gets a good rotation), or top TP's behind, or mid just follows - maybe a clutch exhaust from supp, or flash outplay from AD.
I agree the situation is not optimal, especially for bot lane agency and perception is definitely that bot is a shit show clown fiesta party, but at the same time, I think there's a lot of sensationalism of how dire the situation is.
People claiming that you can 4v2 dive full health bot laners at level 2/3 is pretty absurd. As the bot lane players, if you manage to thin out the wave as it's pushing into turret, you can stall the dive or make it a lot more risky for them to go for it.
The TLDR is that most of the time, your team has to be pretty far behind for you to be getting 4v2 dived with no recourse or strategical counterplay.
SpecterVonBaren8 votesMost supports can't clear period, they've been specifically designed for that because they aren't allowed to go into solo lanes (Despite mages being allowed to go bot and fully endorsed by Riot, hello 
) and not all ADC's have a good source of waveclear, and even if they do they'll still need to throw some autos in there and most people aren't willing to do that when at least three enemies are closing in on their turret with a fourth potentially on the way.
Also, your team doesn't need to be very far behind at all. Rarely does a "party" in bot lane happen just if one side is weaker than the other, in fact, I've experienced more games where we got five maned bot because we were WINNING lane and everyone else on the enemy team decided to say nope to that and just crush us. Most of the time it's just based on whoever happens to have a mid/top/jung that has a mind to go bot.
Jmman6 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a000100000000000000050000,timestamp=2017-01-02T10:56:57.749+0000)
Nah, I'm saying mid can follow and if all lanes are losing (ie. enemy bot has priority to push you in + mid can roam without being followed + your jungle doesn't have priority) then yeah, you probably have to give up the turret). Bot usually can't/shouldn't roam, just has to play a bit more cautiously if they're receiving a lot of attention.
I've been Diamond for ~3.5 seasons and an AD main for at least half of it and I can say with great confidence that 4v2 dives get botched a lot more than you'd think. Sometimes they go for it, then jungle counterganks from a good angle (eg. unseen from lane or gets a good rotation), or top TP's behind, or mid just follows - maybe a clutch exhaust from supp, or flash outplay from AD.
I agree the situation is not optimal, especially for bot lane agency and perception is definitely that bot is a shit show clown fiesta party, but at the same time, I think there's a lot of sensationalism of how dire the situation is.
People claiming that you can 4v2 dive full health bot laners at level 2/3 is pretty absurd. As the bot lane players, if you manage to thin out the wave as it's pushing into turret, you can stall the dive or make it a lot more risky for them to go for it.
The TLDR is that most of the time, your team has to be pretty far behind for you to be getting 4v2 dived with no recourse or strategical counterplay.
Let me fix this for you.....
If you play one of our "Better" supports. You can CC them or help your adc not die in a 4v2 because we gave these supports overloaded kits.... (looking at Thresh)
But if you like other champs rather than the 3 or 4 good supports, then yes you should die on the turret because of you fail in Champ select.
This is playing into the MAJOR problem of the direction of this game. A few champs are "balanced" at the LCS level. If you don't like or play those champs then why play the game at all. It so funny watching people that have no clue about marketing or why people like there game make decisions on it.
If you make your bronze to plat people happy and balance they will become more involved with the game. Then will then want to watch the LCS. Then once more people watch it you can make more $$$ with advertising. Now when you "balance" for the LCS and it screws your base. Then will become angry and not watch the LCS. Right now everyone I talk to is almost to the point of not playing or just playing until a new game comes around. Everyone of Rito post are down voted instantly. Its almost like they have no clue or don't care what the player base says.
If you don't want to bring champs to an equal level then just delete the ones instead of giving false hope. Because right now you are destroying this game. Its all most funny because this is what happened to WoW.
darkdill12 votesSo the idea is to cower out when the enemy team roams and just let them have your turret?
RiotNot Surrendering8 votesIf it's a 4v2, or if you're low in a 3v2, then at present I think it's reasonable. Not to say it should always be like that, but at least for now - doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Hellioning17 votesLosing the first blood tower bonus gold simply because the enemy jungler and midlaner decided to show up sucks, though. Sure, if your midlaner has good waveclear, they can push and attack turret, and maybe your jungler can rotate mid so that they get mid tower down, but there's no way that two people will outpush 4, especially since one of them is an ADC.
I understand that first blood tower gold exists for a reason. But it REALLY sucks.
Whut Thuh 1 votesyou coudlve coordinated a counter gank and had a 4 v 4
Melledoneus9 votesNot if the enemy jungle is Lee Sin or Hecarim and yours is significantly slower.
AMYS GRAVE4 votesWatch some streams man, that's not at all close to what is happening.
Oglaf3 votes[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Thjt738p,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-01-01T19:42:03.980+0000)
I think we want to both preserve the sanctity of laning phase as well as allowing for progression in game state.
If bot lane is both low, I think it's completely appropriate to be able to have a 3v2 dive with the minion wave, kill both and escape. Without the minion wave, should be very difficult.
I think if bot is both full health, neither outcome should be guaranteed in a 3v2 (or 4v3) dive (there should be outplay potential on both sides), but in a 4v2 dive, I would expect both players to die.
Personally, I think 4v2 dives are very telegraphed and you have ample time to leave if jungle isn't there to countergank (or at least ward to prepare and call mid lane to prepare for rotation and get cleanup).
I think it's unreasonable to expect a turret to defend you from a 4v2 dive with a minion wave (turret would pretty much have to 3 hit KO you), but if defense in a full health 2v3 or 3v4 is failing, that's something we can look at.
Nobody is really worrying about the lane towers.
It is the inhibitor, and especially nexus, towers that are utterly pathetic.
They are not balanced in such a way that they scale up adequately to the items players have at the point in the game where they are likely to get attacked. They can just be face-tanked and melted in seconds. Especially the nexus ones; you don't really need minions to tank them for you, you just need the enemy players to be dead. Then it is game over regardless. They are trivial at best.
EDIT: Downvote why exactly? Counter my argument, don't be a coward that downvotes and runs.
Lucifer5 votesAnd then you leave and lose the turret FB, Dragon and the game completely snowballs out of control.
YuGiHo22 votesreplace all turrets with the nexus turret from twisted treeline. problem solved.
Awesomedude888817 votesFirst of all, giving towers in the base (inhib/nexus towers) back their lasers is a good start.
Cosmic Warper35 votesFirst of all, giving towers in the base (inhib/nexus towers) back their lasers is a good start.
Or give them the TT treatment. They hit three times as fast so you're actually punished if you take turret aggro rather than sneezing it off.
Incarceration4 votesWhat about csing?
You guys just care about diving so much, you forget about csing.
Cosmic Warper26 votesWhat about csing?
You guys just care about diving so much, you forget about csing.
Maybe when they aggro on champions only they get rapid fire? That's a possibility.
HazyCloud711 votesTheir damage is really pathetic as well.
IcyPepper11 votesHey now, they might hear and it could hurt their feelings.
FulleroDendrimer3 votes[deleted]
Faustavian16 votesAtm for the standard lvl 4-5 champion with no items 2 turret hits to a melee minion then AA it AA- Turret- AA for a caster get lucky with a cannon
FulleroDendrimer1 votes[deleted]
Girard15 votesMake it function separately against champions. Leave minions untouched. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
Steelflame13 votesThey already did that. Melee minion takes 45% hp per shot, casters take 70%, cannons take 10% IIRC, and supers take 5%.
Papa Andrei5 votesThey still need to buff the AS of inhib and nexus. It takes almost a minute to clear a super minion wave as Nexus
