"Garen's gonna need more than this change to hit the bar on strategic diversity we've set out with our champion work, but making his ultimate less restricted should give him the courage to stand up to the ruffians and scoundrels in top lane more easily."
Rito pls.
Don't get my hopes up.
RiotMeddler11 votesAt some point we'd like to do some more work on Garen, in particular give him some more options so he's not so dependent on 'run at a dude and use everything' in a teamfight. Just to keep expectations appropriate odds are that will involve some mixture of functionality adjustments, buffs and nerfs to different parts of his kit.
Timing on that's uncertain, though not for a while at least, hence these changes to put him in a better spot in the meantime.
Jeddy0173 votesI'm just happy he's on the Balance Team's list of Champs that need work.It's better than thinking you guys left him in a bush.
Garurumon1 votesAt some point we'd like to do some more work on Garen, in particular give him some more options so he's not so dependent on 'run at a dude and use everything' in a teamfight. Just to keep expectations appropriate odds are that will involve some mixture of functionality adjustments, buffs and nerfs to different parts of his kit.
Timing on that's uncertain, though not for a while at least, hence these changes to put him in a better spot in the meantime.
I would agree on his power-level at the moment. He becomes very viable lategame, especially in longer fights, but in a single quick fight, his passive goes entirely to waste and he feels weak again. Though I would also agree on that ultimate change was a good direction. But his kit feels restrictive for him to become a stronger champion that does other stuff than just going for a single target in a teamfight. What I would be interested to see would be maybe some changes to his ultimate. Concidering it's no scale at all, and calculates the damage dealt in a very retro style.
Another opinion I have is that revolving his W. A long time ago it provided the bonus armor/mr % to base stats aswell, and not just bonus armor and MR. It removed some of his early game power, which honestly wouldn't be too bad to test out now that ranged champions and burst champs are picked frequently in toplane.
Kobold1 votesReally hope you think about the way Link does his spin move in LoZ.
Changing it to charge levels with a slow when charging a la Vi and a huge Speed boost that diminishes over time after casting would allow for him to be used in more strategic ways. It would also make him somewhat unique in that he has a massive gapclose that is ms based not jump based by full charging E and casting Q after channel is over for maximum ms boost.
Garurumon1 votesReally hope you think about the way Link does his spin move in LoZ.
Changing it to charge levels with a slow when charging a la Vi and a huge Speed boost that diminishes over time after casting would allow for him to be used in more strategic ways. It would also make him somewhat unique in that he has a massive gapclose that is ms based not jump based by full charging E and casting Q after channel is over for maximum ms boost.
I honestly don't think that it would fit him. If he was forced to channel, he would lose out on damage and chase potential meanwhile. He only has a silence for CC, so it would only hurt him. At least Sion has a cc lock before he channels his Q, and Garen can't do that. The current mechanic is probably the most fitting, as it wouldn't make him generic with a single fast spin (if you wanted that direction aswell).
Kobold1 votesThats the problem though, he (Right now) is a generic I Q up to you and press E. With this at least there is some thought into it, also it would be more akin to Vi than Sion as Sion is stationary with 2s charge while Vi is mobile with 1.25s channel. He needs something to him other than run up press Q>W>E>R as that is a braindead generic pattern. Giving him a channel as a start to changes would allow him some form of Counterplay akin to Sion/Vi in if you see it you can run (sort of). He lacks any real play beyond poke him or out damage him.
Garurumon1 votesThats the problem though, he (Right now) is a generic I Q up to you and press E. With this at least there is some thought into it, also it would be more akin to Vi than Sion as Sion is stationary with 2s charge while Vi is mobile with 1.25s channel. He needs something to him other than run up press Q>W>E>R as that is a braindead generic pattern. Giving him a channel as a start to changes would allow him some form of Counterplay akin to Sion/Vi in if you see it you can run (sort of). He lacks any real play beyond poke him or out damage him.
Hilarious though:
what if: his E has THREE actives. The first one sends a chain like Leblanc's E, binding them together, and the next use creates causes him to channel the abilility, and the third use sends him towards the target and starts to spin once he reaches it, with an added slow to the spin. The damage AND slow is increased depending on how long you channel, for a maximum of 2 seconds (200% base slow and damage).
OR:
We could give him a stationary channel, which increases in range rapidly over the channel duration. The second activation sends him flying at a speed of 1600 units towards the release aim-area while he's spinning. He continues to spin for 3 seconds after he has reached the target area but is also possible to cancel it during the channel and final spintime. (not during his travel-time.) If he hits the target with his body, it is slightly knocked back and slowed by 90% which decreases over 1.0/1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0 seconds.
I like silly ideas, since he is a silly champions. ALSO! I want his Q to give him a backflip again when he attacks with it. My life has been so empty without it.
When I think of Garen I think of BeyBlade. G_G
Kobold1 votesThis is why I like the boards, players can brainstorm and get their ideas out to compare and contrast to even compromise on what a champion is about.
Back to the discussion, Players agree that the spin is a very important part of his kit which is why we agree he needs to keep it in some form. As of right now it is pretty lackluster as in order for it to feel strong it needs to do large amounts of damage which should not be the case. Taking a page from the Sion rework we see that his stun was retained and given something to make it feel more impactful. Making an ability feel strong should be the primary focus of redesigning a champions abilities, This doesn't mean it should be powerful in a damage sense but in a effectful or in its presence.
In both of your examples it makes the ability into more than just something that does damage. This allows the ability to have a different form altogether in different situations. Designs like this allow the champions to be used in different ways depending on the player and situation that arises, it is also how (it seems) Riot has been doing their ability reworks to include new ways for the champion to interact with the map and rest of the champion pool, hence why there aren't many abilities that only have one effect in recent champions.
Onto your abilities themselves.
His E has THREE actives. The first one sends a chain like Leblanc's E, binding them together, and the next use creates causes him to channel the ability, and the third use sends him towards the target and starts to spin once he reaches it, with an added slow to the spin. The damage AND slow is increased depending on how long you channel, for a maximum of 2 seconds (200% base slow and damage).
This is very unique in the way it would interact for the Garen player as it adds 3 conditions to the ability.
This allows the enemy player a decent amount of time to counter it and decent ways for the ability to be used against them if they are not aware of the situation around them (thus teaching map awareness). This in turn allows the ability to be stronger and allows it to be used in different ways. For example it could be used as an escape by linking a minion/monster and channeling (unless interrupted) to launch away from enemies on him. (even better if it can move him through walls)
We could give him a stationary channel, which increases in range rapidly over the channel duration. The second activation sends him flying at a speed of 1600 units towards the release aim-area while he's spinning. He continues to spin for 3 seconds after he has reached the target area but is also possible to cancel it during the channel and final spintime. (not during his travel-time.) If he hits the target with his body, it is slightly knocked back and slowed by 90% which decreases over 1.0/1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0 seconds.
This was more along the lines of my thoughts for how to change his E. It makes it so there is a distinct amount of time for the enemy to react (channel time) and a distinct way for it to be used in more than just an offensive fashion.
The ability limits its use based on these conditions.
The knockback is a decent way to reward or punish players for positioning as well as allows him more than just to bodyblock late game. The knockback should only affect 1 or 2 people at most to avoid minor abuse, and it should be determined if the ability should allow him to pass over terrain (a la Vi).
What are some others thoughts on these?
Rinky Dinky1 votesAwesome.
Thanks for the info!
Mansana1 votesHave you considered giving his spin-to-win a knock back at the last tick? You know like a spinning top should or beyblade. Would be really interesting to see a Garen spin in the middle of a teamfight and whether last tick or early activation he could split up the enemy team mates up. And who knows maybe even add a slow. Sounds powerful, but I'd take any power trade-offs to see what it would feel like.
ModPrandine4 votesAnd let me guess, one of these changes would involve removing his silencing ability from his Q Decisive Strike there right?
RiotMeddler8 votesNot 100% sure, given we haven't done the work yet, but gut reaction is it's probably ok. Garen doesn't have much mobility or range, so enemies have plenty of ways to play around him, unlike other champions we've had to remove silences from. He also doesn't regularly burst targets down within a second, again unlike those that have lost their silences, so being unable to cast for a while's much less of a problem.
ModPrandine2 votesThat makes sense, Garens more about tanking and sustained damage than just up and front burst damage like others. I only asked this because I feel that being able to silence a foe makes Garen unique in a way so-to-speak there really, so thanks I really appreciate the answer here and now, even though I know that this isn't 100% set in stone here yet though, so there's that at least.
SantanaTheSlick 3 voteswhen is annie getting delay on her stuns. Viegar got delay's on his ONE stun and ANNIE HAS TWO OF THEM AND DON'T TELL ME SHE HAS THE SHORTEST RANGE IN THE GAME BECAUSE YOU CAN JUST FARM TILL 6 AND HAVE THE JUNGLE CAMP YOUR LANE AFTER THAT.
Hard4Hamsters3 votesHer passive is her stun... she doesn't have two stuns. I think you mean her W and her R; when the passive is up, yes they are AOE stuns with no cast time, but that is because Annie decided to not use an ability until she got in range of you while her passive is up. Just stay the hell away from her while her passive is up.
Veigar was a problem because it was the longest range instant AOE stun in the game. It did require some skill to pull off, but it was still very abusive. I like where his E is right now, it makes sense thematically (I'm an evil bastard and I'm going to trap you inside this box for my amusement vs I just instastunned you from 1000 range because fuck you buddy). But his W is horrid right now. He has two delayed abilities which makes them really hard to pull off. Right now he can only use his W to farm. I think his W needs some help.
Critmaster Garen3 voteshonestly, i think hes close to being in a fine spot right now.
if you want to look into possible changes, to help him out lategame a little more, then remove the self slow on his rank 5 spin.
i remember, that back when he was reworked shortly before season 3, the self slow was added as a mechanic for the lane phase. it was supposed to make it harder for him to kite or chase other melees through minion waves. it was supposedly added to give other melees more counterplay against him during the early lane phase, so it would open up buffs to his lategame. the problem with the mechanic is, that it screws him over throughout the entire game. especially in jungle chases or teamfights down the lane later on it happens, that you scratch a random minion, and poof. people are walking out of your spin and start kiting you.
considering that it was never intended to impact his lategame, it would be a good idea to remove it on rank 5 judgement.
other possibilities would be slight increase on his w passive to give him a tad more resistances lategame. a compensation for what was lost, when the w passive was nerfed from 20% total resistances to 20% bonus resistances. (honestly, this could have been done back then, when the change was made).
the upcoming 
changes might actually benefit him pretty well. what he needs are better sources for cdr. since the 
cdr nerf and since the stat has been removed from 
, it has become incredibly hard to hit cdr cap on garen. there are simply not a lot of offensive cdr options for resourceless ad casters. being able to reach 40% cdr again, and having his abilities available more often later on is going to help him somewhat.
one thing people do horribly wrong on a regular basis (like a certain chinese pro), is to mistake him for a tank, and build nothing but health and defenses on him.
if you actually make use of his crit scaling and build a couple of offensive items (examples 
) mixed with 1 or 2 defensive items, he can have a pretty good impact lategame. most of the time, 2 or 3 dedicated defensive items like or 
+ with the rest in offensive items, will do fine on him.
in the pro game in question, i have seen the garen get the drop on the enemy kog maw multiple times. if he had built some amount of damage, he would have actually killed the adc and have some influence on the game instead of failing horribly.
Erijian2 votesReally hoping the nerfs/buffs don't change him around too much, because that could potentially kill the charm Garen has to the people that enjoy playing him.