How is this fair? & Can I get answers?

Eat My Axes·Jul 6, 2018·2 votes·1,247 views

I just finished a game losing pretty bad, I would just consider it 1 of my normal losses and just took a break and came back later. But then mid game I have this app called Overwolf and I have OP.GG installed into it. So this is what I got: https://gyazo.com/ffc9337ff08d80dcc3f7af41ffc4fa64 Now it's pretty normal, you'll notice 3 things, blue side did extremely well, red side did very poorly particularly me. But you'll also notice that Sona is unranked in mid to high silver game. Why she is there, god knows, let me make this clear I am in no way shape or form bashing this player, besides it's not there fault at all. Having a look at the Sona's profile you'll notice that she indeed is in placements and has lot all her game so far including the game we are talking about right now: https://gyazo.com/e8cc745ddf28f86b9106fefae8d09713 Now. My question is why this Sona is in our game, let me say this again I am in no way shape or form bashing this player, infact I'm actually friends with this person trying to teach them league. Anyways back to the point at hand, because of this we (The red side) are extremely disadvantaged as we have 4 people and 1 player that is completely out of rank, and we are up against a full team similar to our skill level, how in any way is that fair, now you might say she might have high MMR, well again, this person has lost all her games up to now. Although this person has lost every single game, this person does have a SIlver 5 MMR, https://gyazo.com/323b95fd706908dde436a603cb58a242

Losing 6/6 league games gives you a Silver MMR ?
Why is this person matched up with/against mid-to high silver?

What should be done is that unranked should be put into games with other unranked players to really determine if they are better or not than the other unranked, or have both teams have 1 unranked. Although, putting 1 unranked on one team for example the blue team is giving the other team; the reds, an unfair advantage. Is it asking too much to just have players of similar rank battle it off together? and not have any others? Remember now, these are ranked games used to calculate which team is the better team. adding an unranked into 1 of the teams into the mix is completely unbalanced and poor match making. In essence what I'm trying to say is we could've potentially won if we just had another silver player, :)

TL;DR Worst thing about it is that this is ranked, and that means we all lost LP, and there was nothing we could do about it. We couldn't win that game as 4 going up against 5. when we have an unranked that lost 5/5 of their placement matches & the match making shoudln't bring in unranked players and influence the game outcome.

Yeah and the end game score was 15 v 39 Can I get answers please?

14 Comments

IP MasquerenaJul 6, 20181 votes

Yes, she was rightfully placed there.

One thing that might be a bit annoying, but in the end is ok, is that her hidden unranked MMR, that is used at the start of the 10 games used to rank you, the calibration games, is equal or similar to the avarage MMR of the teams in that game.

Now, the problem with that is that she will get outplayed, as she jumped from a place with mostly new players, aka unranked for her, to a place with Silver veterans, which does cause a bit of a problem, but it's not something big.

The best way to solve this is that if a team has an unranked player, the other team should have as well. Even better if on the same position, to eliminate as much of the drawbacks as possible, but then again, the boards don't want such a thing to happen, the boards don't want balance if it means they don't get free wins.

Anyway, back to the topic, yes, she deserves there. Mid silver means anyone from b1 to g5 can get in those games, and since her unraked games said she deserves silver, that's where she goes. I've seen new players to LoL end up in b5 or in g2, since some were friends of mine, so she isn't as bad you make her be, the problem is that Silver veterans will outlane her, but that's mostly all of what they can do, since they are still silver for a reason. (Looks at the guy I met last month saying that he's stuck in silver because of his team mates, and crying that he should deserve at least plat after playing over a thousand games in silver)

EDIT: win/loss doesn't really matter in calibration, but how you play. That type of calibration and scoring works only during calibration, and should stay there only, otherwise it would be abused.

Eat My AxesJul 6, 20181 votes

Not only did she do poorly in the laning phase, but she over all under performed, example; fail flashing, very poor decision making, no warding, etc.

Critmaster GarenJul 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, she was rightfully placed there.

after losing 6/6 placements?

a buddy of mine had a legit fresh lvl 30 player who played the first couple ranked games in his life placed in a ~gold 3/4 rated game.

now i understand that skill differences in low divisions are small, but that was a bit crazy dont you think so? the poor guy got annihilated. i watched that game, and the poor guy lacked basic skills. he was absolutely uncarryable that that mmr. a 4v5 without him would have had better chances at succeding.

im so glad that i made it out of that shithole long ago, because dealing with that would draw the line for me where id quit this game.

they should just throw fresh accounts into bronze 5 to 1 imo dependent how the placements went.

IP MasquerenaJul 7, 20181 votes

You do need to consider if he did play other mobas before, as that is a major factor in that, depending on how good he was at those, and also some are just fast learners, as I said, the performance in his 10 placements games is more important than winning or losing them.

Also OP is S3, and the game was an S4 avg, even if the Sona would be B1-2 MMR, she would still get to play in that match. When I climbed out of Bronze this season (my 1st season was Gold, forced lower start in S7 got me to finish in Silver as I was visiting in the US and didn't had time to play, hence forced lower start in S8 had me start in Bronze) I met a even Bronze 5 players in a Silver 5 game. You see, rank is one thing and MMR is another, and the games balanced the teams after MMR, so you can see up to 1 whole division above or bellow the rank of the match. A G3 game can have anything from B3 to G3 in it. Yes, such games are quite rare, due to the huge population in residing there, but they are posible, so just because the Sona was in his game doesn't mean she is S3, could be B3 or anything in between, could be even B5 and the game to be a S5 avg not S4, I just said it could be S4 due to the ranks available.

remakoroJul 6, 20181 votes

Dude they have fucking silver 5 J4. They have overall lower ranks than your team. You can easily expect unranked new player to perform on par with silver 5 or even better.

Losing 6/6 league games gives you a Silver MMR ?

Why is this person matched up with/against mid-to high silver?

Their team isnt mid to high silver. Its low to mid silver. And yes going 6/6 kinda makes you silver.

Eat My AxesJul 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Dude they have fucking silver 5 J4. They have overall lower ranks than your team. You can easily expect unranked new player to perform on par with silver 5 or even better. 2. Why is this person matched up with/against mid-to high silver?

Their team isnt mid to high silver. Its low to mid silver. And yes going 6/6 kinda makes you silver.

You haven't considered the fact that a veteran Silver V player is faaaaaaaar more skilled and obviously more experienced than a first time placements new player.

IP MasquerenaJul 6, 20182 votes

You haven't considered the fact that a veteran Silver V player is also trash. Going your first season in silver? Sure, that's cool, going a 2nd season still silver? Ok, some are slow learners, going a 3rd season in silver? Some personal irl issues can make a plausible excuse, going a 4th season still in silver....yea....you're trash.

Experience means quite nothing when you learn bad things. Yea, you can beat a new player, woopdeedo...much achievement, you're still silver, so why brag?

You also need to understand that it's just 1 game, while you as the constant of most of your games, need to overcome obstacles. Things happen, 1-18 Azir mid? GGFF MOVE TO THE NEXT!!! Don't come and cry on the boards for 1 bad game.

Those Silver V veterans are the actual issue of silver, not the new players. You see, if you place that Sona in say a game with 9 others like her, her performance would be that of a Silver, hence why the system placed her in silver, but those veterans with over a thousand games in silver ruin the equation. Yea, they are better than her, but due to the fact that they are also trash, they win mostly when the enemy has worse players.

Maybe she just panicked since it's promos, I know I did that in my first promo, and we know how that can afect one's gameplay.

Eat My AxesJul 7, 20181 votes

I'm not coming on here to cry about my game, I could care less about my game, it just shows how poor the Riot match maker is.

remakoroJul 6, 20182 votes

Dont consider this as rank shaming but "veteran" silver 5 should be considered as "confirmed trash". You have to be doing consistently bad to get stuck in silver 5/bronze. New player might be yet to pick up all those bad habits "veteran" managed to learn over the years. New player might be aware that he is new and sucks and willing to learn. While old low elo player might be convinced that he is doing nothing wrong and its all his team fault.

If silver V was FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more skilled then he wont be silver 5 or even silver.

So you are saying if she has lost all of her placements that she has done so far, that makes her silver?

Yea. Give her a couple more games and she might sink low enough to become bronze.

Eat My AxesJul 7, 20181 votes

Yes I agree, however a silver V is still better than an unranked that has only been playing for a month, and yes this person told me they played for about a month

Eat My AxesJul 6, 20181 votes

So you are saying if she has lost all of her placements that she has done so far, that makes her silver? I remember when I did my placements for the first time in season 6 I got placed Bronze 3 and I did poorly, but I won some.

IP MasquerenaJul 6, 20181 votes

Placements don't care win/loss, performance matters more than that during to avoid being carried or losing because of your team.

Eat My AxesJul 7, 20181 votes

If performance is what's being looked at then why is the ranking system judging who gets LP through wins/loses, I doubt its performance.

IP MasquerenaJul 7, 20181 votes

You still don't understand? I said that the provisional, aka placement games consider performance, not win/loss. You can't really abuse 10 games too much, but after that it does stop and starts considering win/loss instead to stop abuses.

After you are ranked, it cares if you win or lose because those prove that you should or shouldn't advance in rankings, as it takes more than just mechanical skill to win a game, which is something many players don't understand.

Before you are ranked however, how will the system know you are placed correctly? If win/loss would count, then when you win the system would place you higher, while when you lose the system would place you lower, but then come problems. Say you lose but your score is 20-0-15, with 400 cs at 30 mins, if the system would care about win/loss in provisionals, you would be placed lower for next game, and if for some reason you lose that again, with the same stats, you get even lower, where it's even easier for you. The opposites also apply, as we all had games where we won with a 1-18 Azir mid, or lost when we or an ally was 30-5.

But if it considers performance, it can balance and place people more accurately faster, if the 1-18 Azir mid won the game, he would still be placed lower next game, because it's obvious that for at least this one game, it was too hard for him, while the 20-0-15 guy would be placed higher as it is obvious it was too easy for him.

Yes, there are players who would abuse that type of system by playing selfishly trying to get as much mileage as possible in 10 games, but they aren't many, and they will fall back soon, but if that type of system would be available AFTER the provisionals, it would cause a lot more harm than good, because you will see even more people who won't care about winning, but playing for themselves, even more trolls. The win/loss system after the placement matches is the safest system and the best there can be, because it takes more than "skill" to win. Macro, micro, team coordination, behavior, etc, all matter when you need to win, some games some of them are more important than others, but you need all.

And don't tell me that all Moba's except LoL use the same "performance in placements, win/loss after", because it's BS. All Moba's use that system, why do you think none tells you what contributes to good scores, in LoL's case, the scores after the game? It takes 3rd party sites and programs to show you what you do good and what you do bad, the in-game doesn't tell you. Reason? Would be easy to abuse. 10 games isn't much, and there aren't many players doing that, and it's the best way to place people in their actual rank.