Instead of slapping CDR to Frost Queen's and Frostfang to match it with coin..

Windoges·Sep 6, 2017·34 votes·1,692 views

How about nerf coin, since it's gold income is too strong?

This isn't the only time Riot put CDR on an item to buff it.

55 Comments

GinoSoldierSep 6, 201716 votes

I'm against nerfing anything that belongs to supports. Balance going upwards i say. Raise costs, raise efficiency, raise stats until Supp items are as high priced and as efficient as every other item.

[sona-playing]

Rathar DashingSep 6, 20171 votes

I'm mostly on board for that, except that it probably means they would then nerf all supports so the change means nothing.

That includes my faves Sona and Rakan

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20171 votes

Well at that point, the playerbase would be forced to accept that Supports aren't third-rate buff givers who can actually fight on their own. Riot would never let the supp items get too high-powered to begin with unless it was their intention, soooooooo....

Still unlikely to happen, but i can dream.

SanKakUSep 6, 20171 votes

How can you like both Sona and Rakan? I don't like Sona, I only have her because she's a support that costs 3150. If I had to choose between her and Nami, I'd choose Nami for sure, but Nami costs twice as much IP. Actually, part of the reason I picked her up was I had an Arcade skin shard for her. Not my favorite Sona skin at all, but it's not worse than default and it's something to show I own the champ during free to play week. Was also one of the first champions if not the first champion I bought only because I had a skin shard for them.

Rakan on the other hand is awesome. He's actually a champion I identify with a lot on top of being a support. Helps that I find him fun to play.

Rathar DashingSep 6, 20172 votes

Both of these champions have something I really like about champion design: depending on the situation, you can max different skills first. With Rakan my skill maxing varies greatly, if I'm with a Xayah or a Lucian, or someone similar, I level E and W evenly so my combo is up as often as possible. If I'm with a more poke oriented champion, I max Q first so I can poke with them and heal my adc off after said poke. Then from there I can either max W next if I want to be able to give my teammates more opportunity to catch enemies, or my E if I want to keep them more safe. With Sona it just comes down to how well my lane is doing. Max Q by default, but if you're getting stomped or you want extra sustain, max W first or even just put an extra rank in it early on.

I also like how mobile these champions are. Sona's E grants her (and her allies) a bunch of movement speed, which is great for roaming and staying evasive in lane/teamfights. Speaking of which, they both have great ults for shutting down teamfights.

My favourite thing about these two though would have to be how much better they get with experience. When I started both of them, I kinda sucked at Rakan, but when I got Sona in ARAM it just clicked perfectly and I immediately bought her (and sucked with her in normals). I eventually learned how to play Sona, how her combos work and I got really good at my timing and positioning, which makes her feel much more satisfying when you're able to land that Power Chord Q right before your ADC's burst so you can surprise enemies early. People complain about Sona being too easy and brainless but after a while you start to realize that like Rakan, your fighting style is a dance, and if you do it well it's beautiful, and if you do it poorly you're either dead or one of those scumbags that sits under tower pressing W.

When it comes down to it, I'm just someone who loves supporting, these two give so much for their team (Rakan has a bunch of healing and shielding, as well as two large CC abilities, whereas Sona has healing, shielding, movespeed buffs, on-hit damage buffs, and a team stun). With Rakan it's more flashy and stylized, but I personally identify with less noticeable, subtle form of support.

Painted CeltSep 6, 20173 votes

I agree actually. Until support isn't by default the least popular role, game-balance from the perspective of other roles can take a back seat to making support feel more rewarding.

AirKingNeoSep 6, 20171 votes

The fact people are upvoting this very incorrect comment makes me want to vomit.

Yes, buff supports so much that supports are so broken that bruisers can't exist. Why? Because supports always need buffs.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20172 votes

I'm sorry, but upping Support item costs AS WELL AS upping their efficiency can be seen as a nerf as much as a buff. At least before late game, that is. Because as costs increase, they won't be able to get the various effects they currently get quite as fast as they do now unless something is done about their income, even if those effects are indeed stronger or the items have more stats.

That said, two points; -Do you get how amazing a support-supported bruiser could become? I've turned feeding fighters into killing machines with some effort before, and i'd like this to be a thing. -Fighters need a serious itemization overhaul so that they don't get an insane powerspike at 1st item and then basically get nothing great ever again as the game progresses. Supps ain't the only one who need hugs.

AirKingNeoSep 6, 20171 votes

You unironically think that Fighters, the early game class, shouldn't have their 1 item huge spike as the EARLY GAME CLASS? Why?

I don't care if you fed a fighter, because your ELO isn't relevant to the actual game that everyone plays. Fighters are literally unplayable against Ardent Censer right now.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20172 votes

I think that EVERY CLASS should have early, mid and late game champions. Reason why is then people can play whichever class they fucking want without automatically be relegated to being useless late, or useless early REGARDLESS of who you pick on the roster.

Therefore, ALL classes need Items that gives potential power spikes at different times in the game, or at least tune in with champions of one class at different times. Including Fighters, who so happen to have terrible itemization variety right now.

And yes, that means i want early game ADC monstrosities who scale horribly, and uber-late game Mages and Supports who have shit starts, and early game unkillable tanks who don't do near so well late, and all that shizz.

AirKingNeoSep 6, 20171 votes

I agree about ADCs, but Riot refuses to make a crit rework to make IE not auto scale, but maybe fighters shouldn't be worthless because supports are broken.

Support items should be cheap and have like 70% gold efficiency. Thresh can't be your only frontline anymore and other classes can't abuse the items, supports doesn't massively outscale bruisers (not every class needs to scale, supports should naturally not scale well), and thus supports aren't broken.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20172 votes

Well, my opinion of Crit is that it should not exist in it's current form, but be included in champion's kits and abilities as 'you deal extra damage when you do X thing'. Caitlyn traps and net headshot is the simplest example. Give them a specific, balanced 'crit damage ratio', let items crank that number up. No more Crit fishing on AAs, no more randomness, more skill expression on the blandest class in the game. It also gives ADCs clear uptimes for high damage output at all times of the game while lessening the ridiculous free burst they constantly give late game. Win-win.

And while i get that Summoner's Rift is gonna have issues with sharing gold 5-ways as long as it has 3 lanes and one jungle, i will always disagree (like the good little communist i am) with one player group getting the shit end of the stick every-single-game. Therefore, i want Riot to find a creative and balanced way to ensure support income, and i want supports to get items as powerful as their non-support equivalents, which are also as costly.

Even if we couldn't for some reason find a way to increase support income without breaking the solo lanes, higher cost items only means that Supports can ramp back up to par in terms of power with other classes as the game lengthens. I honestly don't see any issues with that.

Yes, it'll probably cause massive changes to the meta, but i'm pretty sure League will be a better game afterwards, when some amount of balance is put to the new state of the game. I REALLY don't care about the meta 'staying like it is'. Preseason's my favorite time for a reason.

Lord of MathSep 7, 20172 votes

That is not a problem with supports, I play bard nautilus, and sion support and they do not use ardent censer. We need a new meta because right now it is just janna and her friends ruling support.

koshkyraSep 6, 20178 votes

Coin gives like 40% more gold maximum, and if you use spellthiefs enough you can outgold coin massively.

Coin also comes with 0 combat stats as a tradeoff so i think its fair

Rathar DashingSep 6, 20171 votes

Heck if you wanted to, you could just lower the CDR coin gives by 5% at each level. (maybe keep it 10% for the final versions item 2302 and item 3069 )

Krys StarSep 6, 20176 votes

Why nerf Coin's income when you can bring Frostfang's and Relic's income to coin's level instead? Supports are often sacrificing their income to provide vision and enslave themselves to their carry yet are usually behind in gold and items until the 50m mark.

Now, with Coin, I find myself at full build around 40m along with everyone else instead of lagging behind and feeling bad about it. I get to invest in an elixir for myself, and be a great asset to the team and feel good about myself.

It baffles me how everyone wants coin's income nerfed. Am I the only support who doesn't enjoy being poor and behind in most games? I can't be the only one who likes being a core team member instead of the carry's slave.

Screw nerfing coin. Screw buffing Frostfang's cdr. Allow Frostfang to give 15g / 30g per attack on enemy champions. Have Relic grant a bonus 25% and second tier a bonus 50% gold per minion execute.

Doc RobotSep 6, 20173 votes

Wait a minute. Riot is seemingly listening to the constant community rallying cry about "buffing up around an OP item instead of nerfing the offending item into the dirt" and we're upset about this?

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20172 votes

OP's pretty much the only one complaining about this, if it can even be called a complaint lol.

I'd have preferred any amount of extra AP on FQC, but i can definitely live with CDR instead. As long as the supp items get steadily stronger, i'm happy.

CalabokSep 6, 20172 votes

how about we buff coin AND buff both frost items? sounds good to me.

MysterQSep 6, 20172 votes

I don't get all the coin hate from nonsupport players. "It gives as much gold as an ADC fed Vayne." That would have to be one ridiculous game.

the only problem is when one becomes better so it forces everyone to build that item instead. So now many people neglect the spellthief line because it isn't as productive. But if the support makes the same gold as your ADC (they won't) then that is good for the game.

Dani El PezgloboSep 6, 20172 votes

to me the problem with new coin is that give 2 much gold while at the same time enable 2 much poke , nerf gold or nerf mana.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20172 votes

Don't forget to buff Relic Shield while you're at it.

QuephaSep 6, 20172 votes

Because support is the role where Riot thinks they should err on the side of increasing their influence on the game rather than decreasing.

PrinceOfStormsSep 6, 20171 votes

The problem is that indirectly increases the game influence of the ADC to the point where the ADC is the sole discriminant as to whether or not you win. It doesn't matter if Top and Mid win lane if your botlane loses.

QuephaSep 6, 20171 votes

Not really, the adcs generally become a sideshow for the spellthief support and the spellthief support becomes "mid lane mage jr."

StoryDuckSep 6, 20172 votes

No, and let me tell you why. Supports are in a unique position of having the least power but the highest utility. Every item you get on a support is subpar to the laner version of a similar item (given some tank support items are a bit too good). AP itemization in particular has a LOT of room for improvement to give supports more agency. If you are wondering what agency is, it's pretty much the feeling that you are doing something. When supports are forced onto subpar items they lose agency and indeed, some supports feel like glorified items that have been bought instead of actual champions. When AP supports are buying Locket just to get a shield there is a problem as the supports are being defined by the item's actives rather then the champion's kits.

For this reason, finding ways to continually improve and buff support items is always a good thing but Riot has to be careful not to make them so good as to be regular laner items. (occasional laner item yes but not regular) Coin is a perfect support item because it allows a support to be greedy and get more gold at the expense of helping the team. It's to allow the support to buy items they want rather then the cheapest item with the best active.

LexLutheran87Sep 6, 20172 votes

I would rather they bring up the gold of the other two items. Then it becomes a choice of mana, health, or damage for which item you start with.

As a support main, it feels good being able to build more then two or three items each game. Give relic an extra charge all ranks and simply up the gold gained on the poke item.

MysterQSep 6, 20171 votes

?? What buff is this?? Frost Queen and Frostfang have always had 10% CDR.

Honestly though, even if too strong. I think it is time RIot just combines the two forms into one. Hold (or selfcast) to use the active. Can even add a short channel if you want (but that hurts Mountain Face). Press to ward.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20175 votes

They're getting 10 more CDR. So 20%.

MysterQSep 6, 20175 votes

That is completely USELESS.

As support I am already overcapping 90% of the time. What support item outside of Locket doesn't have CDR. Come on Riot.

Dani El PezgloboSep 6, 20171 votes

i seriusly think this change with help more to see this object on midlane than on sup lane

MysterQSep 6, 20171 votes

After Vekkna's post, I would agree with you. I have also been telling my friend to build it mid for awhile now, so maybe it will be a thing lol.

Need Gold 4 TentSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

After Vekkna's post, I would agree with you. I have also been telling my friend to build it mid for awhile now, so maybe it will be a thing lol.

It was already a thing back then when ST was still strong, even without the quest. Until they nerfed it.

VekknaSep 6, 20172 votes

The mage items for Brand, Zyra, and AP Sona: item 3116 item 3151 item 3285 item 3135 item 3089

MysterQSep 6, 20172 votes

Yes, as a midlaner that seems like it may be helpful.

But if I am playing a support, I normally don't have the funds to build all those. And I would rather help as a support (speaking for Sona). But you are right, in very certain situations if I know I want to be a mage carry support, it may get a second thought. Afterall I could delay my Morello since I get so much CDR elsewhere which helps get the early Rylai.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20171 votes

Sona being the only champion i play, or close enough; My build for Sona support and Sona mid are the exact same, with the exception of Sona supp rushing Eye of the Watchers first.

item 2301 item 3504 item 3100 item 3003 item 3285 item 3165 (Sell FQC) item 3089 -or, in midlane-

I only get basic boots as a temporary MS boost IF i feel like i'm too slow, and only until i need the space to buy something else. I entirely rely on the total 25%MS of Ludens, Lich's and Censer, combined with Sona's ridiculous E %MS scalings. In essence, Censer to me is basically like uber boots.

Could argue that waiting this long to get from 20 to 40% CDR is bad, but i prefer rushing Archangel's Staff for the shield active, which is usually all i need to survive. I also never run out of mana after Archangel's which is nice.

The reason i stack so much straight AP and nothing else is that i find that Sona's kit just does everything better with maximum possible AP scalings than she ever could with cheap Supp items, even though they're way better than they used to be and Athene's is actually really goddamn strong for heals.

Mig89Sep 6, 20171 votes

My Zyra build has 10 CDR in runes along with MPen and i build item 2301 item 3020 item 3116 item 3151 and then Id look for some CDR and whatever i need that game. The Fact that I will have 35% CDR from just these items is going to make laning phase even more fun (not fun for the enemy). The CDR is really noticeable on the passive seed spawns. A lot of the time I will get zzrot and another defensive item because with those 4 Im doing true damage to squishies, OK damage to tanks, with rylais I can peel for an adc against anyone not named Yi or Olaf. Grabbing a zzrot/banner/locket just makes me harder to kill because every item has a little health and then throwing resists on top is icing on the cake. Im only gold but ive had a 60%+ winrate for two seasons now.

SpaghettiVaseSep 6, 20174 votes

i mean item 3303 is intended to be a poke enhancer item built on champs like Lux Zyra Zilean Morgana Velkoz

you're not gonna see that much healing or shielding from these guys they are primarily gonna be poke/cc

Most of them are gonna be running builds like item 3092 item 3116 item 3151 item 3089 with an occasional item 3102 or item 3157 thrown in for the extra CD and their actives. Even if they built both Zhonya's and Banshee's with Frost Queen you're only looking at 30% CDR from all those items.

Daedric EtwahlSep 6, 20173 votes

Sona also greatly benefits from building Spellthiefs, or at least she did before Coin became ridiculous, and these changes to FQC and EotW dont really do much to help her at all.

The Frostfang change will give her an extra 5% CDR earlier than before but what's the point when Coin is so obnoxiously strong?

Maddened King Sep 6, 20173 votes

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Daedric EtwahlSep 6, 20172 votes

You're right, it doesn't benefit Sona, which is a damn shame since Spellthief's has always been her go-to support item for the longest time because of how easy she can stack it. But whats the point of bringing Spellthief's when Coin is so obnoxiously strong? In-Lane poke, and that is it.

I don't mind Coin being an alternative for normally-Spellthief supports, but it's completely drowning out the other two.

GinoSoldierSep 6, 20174 votes

Anything that has AP on it benefits Sona far more than anything that doesn't, because of how generalistic her scalings are. Yes, coin gives a lot more gold, but you're not gonna bully a lane with coin. In exchange, Spellthief's gives you AP to scale with later and a swank as heck amount of extra poke.

I still build Spellthief's everytime.

Maddened King Sep 7, 20171 votes

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Daedric EtwahlSep 7, 20171 votes

Which is fair enough if that's the case. However, it does feel like Sona suffers for it a bit, since she's always taken Spellthief's.

And thank you!

EnjutsuSep 6, 20171 votes

I actually like the change, but my buildpath is a bit unconventional and i was a bit strugling finding the last 10% cdr.

ABlueQuakerSep 6, 20171 votes

Yeah. Now it'll literally be a full-on mage build with item 2301 instead of item 3165 .

Gonna be spamming a bunch of Brand/Morg/Vel in Normals if/when this change makes it through.

item 3020 item 3089 item 3157 item 3151 item 2301 item 3135 (I run scaling CDR Glyphs for the last 10%)

FloupiSep 6, 20171 votes

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LightIsMyPathSep 6, 20171 votes

Revert the Nerf on coin sustain and buff spellthief gold Gen: Buy the first to sustain in a bad matchup, the second to poke more heavily

Shadow HazardSep 6, 20171 votes

If they nerf coin's gold gen they will have to pretty heavily buff it's stats so that it is in line for the stat power it offers in comparison to relic and spellthief

Lewd The LoIisSep 6, 20171 votes

Ancient coin should just drop coins and frost should give you some mana back if you hit a champion.