More spells should be targeted, and then tuned around being targeted, rather than being skillshots.

Bârd··4 votes·1,342 views

I know what you're thinking...

"But muh counterplay!"

Well, shut it. Making everything a skillshot is not a great way to introduce counterplay.

Making something a skillshot is, technically speaking, a downgrade. Because of this, these spells are always compensated in other areas.

  • Some skillshots will have more damage than a targeted equivalent (Sej R can do 700 (+160% AP) plus a potential 200 (+60% AP) from her E proc, while Liss R does 350 (+60% AP) magic damage).
  • Some skillshots will have more range than a targeted equivalent (Ryze's old Q had 625 range, the new one has 1000).
  • Some skillshots will have lower CD's (Fiora's old Q had an unconditional 8 second CD after your second cast, the new one only has an 8 second CD if you miss).
  • Some skillshots are allowed to exist in otherwise powerful kits, while targeted ones eat up a champion's power budget (Rakan's W is just one of the things he does, while Alistar's W-Q combo is most of his power budget).

Hell, there are even some situations where making a spell a skillshot is just a straight buff. Making Fiora's lunge a skillshot gave Fiora, a champions who previously had no escape, an escape.

What's worse is that Riot has a habit of taking an unhealthy champion, making something on them into a skillshot and saying "Boom, healthy".

Old Ryze's problem was that he had overwhelming damage on no CD alongside solid mobility and dumb levels of durability because he could buy ROA, Frozen Heart, and Banshees (which used to give Mana). New Ryze has less raw durability, but can now spam shields on himself (achieving basically the same effect), plus he does more damage than he used to (though he takes longer to get there). So neither of his real problems were addressed, and he's been made virtually unplayable for 99% of the playerbase.

Not only did you not fix the problem, you made it worse and then just made him unplayable for anybody below challenger so nobody would notice.

What if we made Rune Prison a skillshot, and then compensated by shaving 2 seconds off the CD, adding 350 cast range, and adding 50 damage? Would that make Ryze healthy? Absolutely fucking not.

On top of all that, there's the issue of CC. Skillshots are balanced around being effects that you can avoid. If you can land one, you'll get a pretty nice reward. Now lets say somebody else lands a stun. This means that your skillshot, a spell balanced around being unreliable, is now totally reliable. It's one thing if there are a couple spells like this in a match, it's another when 7/10 champions in a match have a spell like this. Instead of "Oh I got hooked by Thresh, now I'm going to get flayed into his team and be in a bad position", it's "Oh I got hooked by Thresh, now I get hit by every skillshot nuke on the enemy team and instantly die".

15 Comments

Frosted Tips3 votes

I don't think that making more abilities targeted is the way to go, but maybe reducing some of the buffs that skillshots recieve for being able to be missed is the way to go. I think that Ultimates being targeted is a lot different than normal abilities especially when it comes to hard CC. Ranged, Targeted, Hard CC on a basic ability is too strong IMO.

Bârd2 votes

It's not hard to balance.

Look at Taric. He had a ranged, targeted, 1.6 second stun, and it wasn't a big deal since he paid for that in other ways.

  • Zero mobility.
  • Kind of a pocket pick, needed to be picked into an AD heavy comp.
  • The CD was long if he couldn't get a ton of passive procs.
  • If you weren't already on top of them, it did no damage.

Hell, you can also look at Lulu, who has a targeted Polymorph. Definitely annoying, but she also has tradeoffs.

  • She can't get in range to poly you without using it on herself, so it's only useful defensively or as follow up.
  • If she uses it, she can't use it as a steroid.
  • If she's in range to use it aggressively, she's in a bad position for what she wants to do otherwise.
  • The duration is weak early, since her Q and E demand points.

It's worth noting that I'm not just talking CC here.

Remember when GP's thing was that he shot you with Q and did some solid damage? Now he shoots you with a barrel and one-shots you.

Frosted Tips3 votes

Using Taric as an example is one of the most unintelligent things to do. He was reworked because he was deemed obsolete.

Polymorph is not Hard CC. Hard CC requires you to have the inability to control the Movement of your character. Also many league players considered the entire Enchanter class as unhealthy.

Again using reworked champions as examples is not good for your cause. Gangplank was one of the worst champions because a lot of his power was in a team steroid and an Ultimate that was based around RNG. Obsolete champions like pre-rework GP and Taric are not good examples especially since they are some of the more well recieved reworks even though GP was OP for a while.

Bârd1 votes

Taric was obsolete, but salvageable... including the targeted stun. If they gave him a VU and updated his P/R, but left his basic spells intact, he'd be totally fine with some balancing. In any case, the reason Taric sucked wasn't that "He was so broken that he had to be kept in the gutter", and it certainly wasn't Dazzle that broke him. It's that every other champion became unreasonably strong.

Polymorph is a silence, disarm, and slow. I don't really care if you can waddle a little during its duration, it's pretty much hard CC.

GP was bad, but it wasn't Parrrley that was bad. Hell, Parrrley was good enough that it's virtually unchanged. Grog Soaked Blade and Raise Morale needed changes. Trial By Fire is a great replacement for Grog, but replacing Raise Morale with Barrels is just the epitamy of what I'm talking about here. Old GP pressed E then walked up and Q'd you. New GP does something very similar, but now it's a skillshot that does shitloads of damage.

Frosted Tips2 votes

Taric was obsolete, but salvageable... including the targeted stun. If they gave him a VU and updated his P/R, but left his basic spells intact, he'd be totally fine with some balancing. In any case, the reason Taric sucked wasn't that "He was so broken that he had to be kept in the gutter", and it certainly wasn't Dazzle that broke him. It's that every other champion became unreasonably strong.

He really wasn't salvageable outside of what they kept.

  1. Passive based around basic attacks after casting spells
  2. Heal
  3. Armor steroid
  4. Stun

They really kept a lot. They also added the ability for multi players stuns which expresses skill and an ultimate that wasn't just an aura buff.

I used to crush with old Taric back in Season 3 and 4 because all I had to do was rush Ninja Tabis and Iceborn Gauntlet and I could run down any ADC and kill them 1v1. That is why he was changed.

Polymorph is a silence, disarm, and slow. I don't really care if you can waddle a little during its duration, it's pretty much hard CC.

Classify it wrong by all means, but is still is not a Hard CC.

GP was bad, but it wasn't Parrrley that was bad. Hell, Parrrley was good enough that it's virtually unchanged. Grog Soaked Blade and Raise Morale needed changes. Trial By Fire is a great replacement for Grog, but replacing Raise Morale with Barrels is just the epitamy of what I'm talking about here. Old GP pressed E then walked up and Q'd you. New GP does something very similar, but now it's a skillshot that does shitloads of damage.

Actually Parrrley was bad once you got to late game and if you tried to cast it on someone they either killed you or would engage on you. Also arguing it was virtually unchanged is ridiculous IMO. It works with your barrels now and that is a huge change plus it now earns you a new currency for Ultimate upgrades.

I don't understand how you can think his barrels are a downgrade. He now has more counterplay and at the same time has more versatility. Barrels require a bunch of set up and it is a great way to show skill on the champion.

Bârd1 votes

They didn't salvage him. They looked at the basic functions of his spells and replaced him with something that could be thought to do something similar.

  • His passive was a fine change, but didn't really make him weaker/stronger.
  • His old Q was flat out better.
  • His old W did more than just give armor. It was also a damaging spell that applied a massive armor debuff to the enemy. The new one just feels lame.
  • His old E was fine. The new E is pretty Ok, but is needlessly frustrating due to creepblock and solo queue allies not understanding the ability.
  • His old R, even if its potential was lower, felt stronger simply because it dealt damage, which played into his bursty style at the time.

You want to know how they could have "salvaged" Taric?

  • Do the VU.
  • Do the passive change.
  • Leave QWE totally intact.
  • Remove his ult's AD/AP aura, replace it with something that feels more impactful.

But no, they didn't.

He went from a brawly, bursty paladin with one defensive spell and three offensive spells to a pure enchanter with three defensive spells and one offensive spell.

Nothing wrong with a support being able to 1v1 the ADC in early stages, or the mid game if the support is ahead. ADC's are item dependent champions who typically shine in the late game. Supports are item independent champions who typically shine in the early game. It makes sense that a support would kick an ADC's ass in early game brawls, especially one with as much armor as Taric... and that's what made him fun.

Taric's stun going from

Parrrley didn't get changed. What did get changed is everything around Parrrley. Barrels are a separate thing, even if they interact with Q, and while you GET Silver Serpents through your Q, they only do anything to your ult.

In terms of raw power, Barrels are an upgrade. I'm saying that even if they're stronger in game, they aren't a good design. "It's a skillshot, therefore it has more counterplay so it's a better design" is a problematic way of thinking. Adding some counterplay at the expense of drastic powercreep is a bad idea.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Obviously you won't change your mind and neither will I, but Taric was extremely outdated and needed a larger scale VGU. Yes maybe his old Q and w could have been kept, but his Point and Click stun should not have. Also Riot has disliked Auras for a while now and we will see probably few to none added to the game because they offer a bunch of power, but it feels lackluster because it is over a duration and it is hard to see.

Yes Parrley didnt get directly changed much (currency for Ultimat upgrades), but the way it is used late game is drastically different and an improvement.

If opinions could be wrong then yours on his barrels would be. They offer way more versatility to Gangplank, while also offering a bunch of counterplay with being able to destroy them, being able to dodge them, and seeing where they are set up. This adds a ton of skill expression to the champion and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it is better and the vast majority of players and game designers of probably any genre would agree.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

Gangplank still shoots you with q for solid damage, in fact gangplank can poke people out of lane with grasp + Q

Bârd1 votes

He can, but come late game, does he?

If he has Barrels available, he's going to use them and he's going to deal much more damage.

Hethalean2 votes

yeah making things skillshots usually brings about more damage (because you can miss) which always is a nerf against immobile champions since they're still pretty much targeted anyway.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

Except a lot of immobile champs make up for that lack of mobility with high range or lots of poke, usually both.

Moody P2 votes

Why riot fails at targeted spells and why they're stigmatized is that they rarely add variance to them. Outside of a few like Teemo Q which only works against AA heavy opponents , most are "press for damage and then CC."

There are many ways to make targeted spells interesting -- more than skillshots ever could, because the unreliability of missing the effect entirely means it needs to be universally effective.

Tele II1 votes

I think people like the skill-factor of skill shots though.

Bârd3 votes

And you can get the same level of skill expression from targeted spells if you design the champion well.

If that wasn't the case, ADC would be the easiest role in the game since Autos aren't skillshots either, and half the heroes in DOTA would be easy since most spells are targeted.

hrooza dota 1 votes

dota unlike lol allow you to counter targeted spells with items, (disjoint) made it so mana and cool downs a huge resource you need to manage compared to lol imo.

kinda hard to compare the 2 when dota is all about strategy (tbh if we want to add strategy to lol we need to look at the items first)

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