I don't think it is damage creep alone...
Anyone else remember when warmogs gave 1200 hp?
Anyone else remember when warmogs gave 1200 hp?
When Randuin's gave 80 armor and slowed AS AND MS on each hit taken.
When FH gave 100, and more AS slow.
When thornmail was more relevant than the component items it builds out of.
When Riot gutted HP regen off every non-support item in the game.
When Randuin's gave 80 armor and slowed AS AND MS on each hit taken.
When FH gave 100, and more AS slow.
When thornmail was more relevant than the component items it builds out of.
When Riot gutted HP regen off every non-support item in the game.
Lets not forget a tank item that gave %MS, and Magic resistance, with incombat healing. I still miss you FoN
I loved FoN, but I have to admit the item was a little absurd as far as the HP regen.
The part I thought was most bullshit is WHY they removed it.
It wasn't because the item was overloaded (it was, if only slightly tbh) or completely shut down AP threats, they removed it because "nobody wanted those stats together" when everybody liked ~~FoN ~~ because it offered those stats together.
Well what else was funny is that they reworked warmogs at the same time. I remember them saying "We want to make it feel good when you purchase hp regen, and not make it feel silly".
Honestly it feels silly that I can only have out of combat regen.
"Let's take the only thing that makes Garen's passive worth preserving and put it on an item so he can feel even worse about it!"
[zombie-brand-mindblown]
when regen as a stat was actually good
Right? I remember getting 300hp/5. Now that may have been a little over the top, but it was a lot of fun.
You hit like a moist towelette, but you didn't really die very easily.
You hit like a moist towelette
my new QoTD
Well it was good for Heimer for a while before they changed his passive (his HP regen aura passive was moved into his base HP regen and since HP regen items were % based he was the one who got most from HP regen items lol)
I dont remember 1200 hp warmogs but i remember 1000 hp warmogs with in combat healing. Dont worry guys its okay we got 10% cdr now.
bwhahaaa isn't that the truth. Just remember that out of combat healing is op. Especially when you somehow manage to get out of combat to heal... We all know walking away from the enemy damage is gg ez
when you want to activate warmogs but malz put E and DFT on you so you gotta wait 2 more years
When Randuin's gave 80 armor and slowed AS AND MS on each hit taken.
When FH gave 100, and more AS slow.
When thornmail was more relevant than the component items it builds out of.
When Riot gutted HP regen off every non-support item in the game.
Randuin's used to have 90 armor, alongside some HP regen (remember Heart of Gold?) and 15 CDR(!)
Before the big item rework in preseason 3, Randuin's gave 75 Armor.
Before the big item rework in preseason 3, Randuin's gave 75 Armor.
You're not wrong, but that came after what I was saying >_> not really sure what you're trying to direct at me.
Just indicating that the 90 Armor version might not have been the most balanced version of the item back then :)
Yeah, I know it used to give 15% CDR and regen, and forgot about the 90 armor though.
Randuin's has been changed so many times. lol
Randuin's gave 75 Armor and had A CHANCE to slow AS and MS on each hit. The slow was not guaranteed. It also cost a bit more (3075 gold).
Frozen Heart had 99 Armor, 500 MR and cost 2775 gold.
Looking back, I can understand the nerfs to HP regen. The stat is fairly invisible, but small changes can have big effects (changes to base regen nowadays can easily shift a champions winrate by 1-2%).
He's talking way back when these were released. Not almost three years later, after they had already seen a few rounds of nerfs.
back when last whisper items gave total armor pen? hehe
but therefor no 20% increased damage vs high hp targets and less ad?
why you always say hehe on your post?
I bet u don't really hehe IRL every time you post
It happened with all defensive items. Their costs got reduced, but so did their stats. This resulted in tanks spiking in the midgame, but then becoming paper (at least to non-burst) shortly thereafter.
Yep, they were actually strong enough that sometimes a damage champ would take them and sacrifice getting damage. You don't see that now anymore.
Meanwhile people haven't thought of grabbing stoneplate on an ADC as a psuedo GA where you AREN'T a sitting duck, with a much lower CD because Riot made GA give AD and armor instead. :^)
80 armor, 80 MR, and ~2k HP is more than old GA gave by a landslide, and if you time the active correctly, you don't even really suffer from the lowered damage too much; especially on a champ like Vayne or Fiora.
Oh look two champions that deal true damage... big surprise.
My friend, you must be more specific!
#%MAX HP TRUE DAMAGE
You say that, but I bet that yi could get away with a stoneplate too. He has some pretty insane true damage.
50 true dmg and you need bonus AD for more. Even bruiser on-hit Yi doesn't want this item, because randuins + visage combo is better than stoneplate.
Yi main here and you're wrong. I often pick up gargoyle if I opt to build a rageblade, as the synergy is quite strong. Gargoyle is a good general defense item, but where it really shines is at countering burst and cc. Often, when I see I'm about to get chain cc'd and focused down I'll just pop gargoyle and it works wonders. That isn't to say gargoyle is the only way, far from it, but it's a solid option.
Well, even CHo with Gargoyle gets melted when focused. I can't see how Yi will live. Yi can be very strong when ahead and builds defense, but on equal ground this item is very lacking without other defensive items.
But the time you take on melting Yi will be used by the Yi's team to destroy you, if they are competent.
And then Riot decided that tanks were spiking too hard in the midgame and destroyed all their good one-item spikes.
And were shocked when their winrates plummeted across the board. The tank update upset me so much, I don't want my ability to soak damage to be tied up entirely in one item with a double-edged active.
I was pissed when they made rammus W self slow... I felt like they nerfed tanks during the update tbh...
Because they did; nearly every tank item lost effective health, then riot crammed power into a conditional active on the new item stoneplate, just to rub salt in the wound.
1370 HP, to be exact. At 3000 gold.
And 450 of that HP were gated behind farming 100 CS (or getting kills and assists, which were worth 10 CS equivalents). This and the high cost prevent Warmog's from being an abusive rush item, as anti-HP itemization back then was [beat] less optimal.
I miss games where you would stack them just trying to get to 10k hp. Sure sion could get there, but not many other champs made it. It made the games alot of fun.
Does anyone remember the 80 AD items and the 120 AP items? Does anyone remember how to start a good discussion or did you skip that lesson in school?
We still have 80 attack damage items.
And we still have an 120 AP item.
Grammar police!
"items" = more than one
"an" = singular
Not the same thing
I was continuing off of his comment, making sure he knew that both 120 AP and 80 AD items existed.
And, let's be realistic. The only two 80 AD items are BT and DD. You only ever buy one in a match, unless you're a Kindred desperately trying to be relevant.
And, even more: Seraph's gives you roughly 120 AP when you buy it!
It's not damage creep so much. It's just snowball creep in general.
Ever fought a tank that got early kills and snowballed? It's not common, but instead of building damage, they build tank - and become unstoppable, unkillable juggernauts that can walk blindly into your team and do whatever they want.
It tends to be damage dealers that snowball, since they're more likely to pick up kills, so that's what's more noticeable.
This. People don't realize that the only reason that ADCs seem to be unkillable is because they have someone to spoon-feed them double kills. After that, you see the jungler and mid as the most fed, as they're roaming the most and tend to have high damage. The only reason we don't see tanks fed as much is because the nature of their kits make it hard to pick up a lot of kills.
But that changes when you pull in someone like Kled, who is tanky and does a lot of damage. If he wins lane, for the next 10 to 20 minutes, he's unstoppable. He will charge into your team, crush everything in sight, burst your squishies, DPS your tanks, and be all but unkillable while doing so. It's rare to see that on many other tanks or juggernauts, because they tend to be less mobile or do less damage (and typically both), but it happens. You end up as a truly unkillable force that still manages good damage outputs for a while.
No? Defensive itemization is stronger than it was in season 3. While Randuins may have taken a few hits, sunfire and deadman's were great additions and there are far more & stronger magic resistance items.
It has to do with Keystones and snowballing. Keystones were an absolutely dreadful addition to this game, and i would prefer the small stat masteries of season 4 and 5.
sunfire
great addition
Uh... 99% sure that sunfire has literally always been in the game. At the very least, it's been around since late in the alpha. It had slightly less armour, slightly more health, and double the damage to champions until season 4. It also cost 400 less. The only way you can argue that tank items are stronger now is stoneplate. They might be more varied now, but they're almost certainly weaker.
Oh, and the MR items are only better if you want damage. FoN had 76 MR, Spirit visage was so good for regen (and at times had the same amount of MR as it does now), Banshee's veil is rarely built these day even though it has more MR, and Runic Bulwark gave 55 MR to you and 25 to the rest of your team.
Having a larger variety doesn't mean the items themselves are stronger.
Except that i laid out, they have more effective HP. They're stronger. Read please.
(Also, this doesn't account for the % Resistances on Randuins / Adaptive helm or champion abilities like Galio/WW/Jax.)
How do you figure that things have more effective HP? 80 armor with 600 hp on randuins? Yea give me something that has more effective hp than that.
How about 1200 hp warmogs vs 600 warmogs? More hp where? Should we talk about having 100/second in combat regen? Where is that effective hp?
you legit have no clue what ur talking about xd This is actually cancerous to game design mr giggles 0 clue