The ever fine line between Over Powered and Annoying as Hell

SolusInCadere··3 votes·705 views

There are plenty of posts on these forums about how certain champions (Vi Leblanc Nidalee Zed Kalista LeeSin Riven Yasuo) are borken as all get out and need nerfs/reworks/removal.

But ask yourself this: are these champions too strong for the game, or are they too frustrating for the game? Do you, as a player, want them removed because they have incredibly powerful kits which dominate the rift, or do you want them removed because they seem to dominate the rift, because they are flashy and encourage a certain...how do I put this...ah, "mid or feed" attitude?

This attitude goes something like this: I am better than everyone else on my team in every game, and anytime we win, it is because I carried the entire game and basically 1v5 since minute 3. But if my team ever loses, it was either because everyone else intentionally fed the enemy team, or because I DIDN'T GET MID!" (or the role they wanted, which is of course the only role they know, or so they say)

so, are the champions to blame, or is it the players who succumb to this "mid or feed" mentality by picking them to blame?

Lets be clear, I dislike this mentality, but I do not dislike these champions soley because they encoruage this mentality. they all have their weaknesses, they all have their strengths, just with these FEW (might I remind you, FEW), their strengths hide their weaknesses from view

Edit for clarity: I am asking readers if a champion needs a rework because they are too strong, or because they elicit certain reactions from the players around them (annoyance from enemies, "mid or feed" from users)

30 Comments

Troy24262113 votes

Kalista is literally both. She's retardedly powerful AND is horrible to deal with. I don't even like her on my team, which is extremely rare for me to say of any champion. I'm very tolerant when it comes to picks, because I know some people can pull odd stuff off. I NEVER want a Kalista on my team. I never want her on the enemy team. I hate her concept, I hate how strong she is and I think her design is utterly abysmal.

It's so bad that I don't even blame the balance team whatsoever. The designer really blew it on this one, but given who designed it, I've come to expect it -.-.

SolusInCadere2 votes

kalista is not OP

she scales horribly into lategame, I'd say the worst late game scaling of any ADC, or at least way, way down there.

But she is so annoying people mistake it for strength. Sure, you'll never land a skillshot on her, but what is she going to do when a "real" ADC just farms their lane properly and out scales her everytime?

Troy2426213 votes

You DO realize she's an adc, correct?,..She doesn't "Scale horribly into late game," and even compared to other ADCs it isn't like she's Urgot.

SolusInCadere1 votes

she is an ADC which does not scale into lategame. That is no lnger a given for ADCs.

lets look at her steroids: Passive grants mobility, not increasing her DPS. E is a slightly damaging spell off her attack speed, which really doesn't do considerable damage unless she has stacked it for days

Steelflame4 votes

She is a utility/safety carry, who just happens to have a godlike midgame/conditional lategame. A good Kalista can be literally impossible to lock down if your comp can't handle her, and she can solo 1v5 due to it without much difficulty vs those comps. I'm sure we have all seen that off Kalista who has "mastered" her and can reliably trigger her passive every time and move like she has 1k MS while still having throwing an AA every half a second.

Durzaka3 votes

Do we need to get the videos of Kalista's ripping apart teams in team fights without getting hit?

Her lack of a steroid is made up for by her insane fucking mobility that makes her impossible to catch.

On top of an infinitely stacking damage source which she spreads AoE because Hurricane is core on her.

LankPants2 votes

she scales horribly into lategame, I'd say the worst late game scaling of any ADC, or at least way, way down there.

Only if you do the crappy Runnans rush that most high level players have abandoned.

If you go BotRK into standard ADC build (like a Vayne build) she actually hyperscales into late game.

Nameless Voice5 votes

Your post seems to change topic halfway through.

Yes, the problem with those champions is that they are extremely frustrating to play against, not necessarily "OP" as such, though they also tend to suffer from extremely binary matchups (you can't do much against them if you are playing X, but they are useless against you if you are playing Y.)

Personally, I think that's worse than overpowered. An overpowered champion is strong, but they don't usually completely shut you out of choices to deal with them. If, for example, Lux was overpowered, you would still be able to deal with her by avoiding her skillshots and playing around her abilities. When something like Kalista is strong, because you are playing a champion who can't deal with her, there's really not much you can do.

I don't see what that has to do with people with bad attitude?

SolusInCadere1 votes

basically, these champions play a certain way which annoys enemies and encourages a mentality in their summoners, so I am asking forums people if it is truly the champion's strength, or is it the reactions they pull out of the players aroudn them, that makes them un-fun

Nameless Voice5 votes

I'd say it's neither. It's the fact that their kits tend to give them the ability to do something that the enemy can't really react to properly, or at least where you need much more skill to react than they do to act.

For example, LeBlanc jumps on you and deals damage. If you try to target her, she will jump back and avoid all of your skills; if you target her starting point, she can just choose not to go back there. It leaves you feeling that there wasn't really much you could do to react to her attack.

Something like Kalista is even worse - You are playing a champion who can't reach her, so you are not capable of making any plays against her. All you can do is hope to rely on your teammates and hope that they are not also playing champions who can't reach her.

SolusInCadere1 votes

that makes sense, I just don't see that explanation in many posts on the forums, mostly just "blah blah champ beat me in lane OP!"

On the other hand, I thought that every champions (at least viable ones) had a thing they could do that other's can't. In a perfect world, that special thing can at least be reacted to, but LoL is far from a perfect world

LankPants3 votes

On the other hand, I thought that every champions (at least viable ones) had a thing they could do that other's can't.

They do, it's just that you have a correct reaction to what they do which at least partially mitigates their impact.

For example

  • Sejuani : Ult is fairly dodgeable, can be kited quite effectively, still has an abusable weak early game.
  • Graves : Has extreme burst but puts himself in risky spots in order to do that burst
  • Jinx & Cassiopeia & Orianna : All bring high damage + utility but are easy to burst down
  • Chogath : Super high damage/utility on a tanky champ, but everything on his kit is easy to dodge

I believe all of these champs to be strong without being fundamentally broken (not necessarily OP, just broken) in the same way as the likes of Annie / Fizz / Kalista / Katarina / Leblanc / LeeSin / Nidalee / Shaco / Taric / Thresh / Tryndamere / Vi / Warwick / Yasuo / Yorick / Zed , note that not all of these champs are OP, but their kits are designed in such a way that if they play well there's nothing you can do against them.

I also don't feel Riven fits this definition, when I play against her it actually feels like there's something I can do against her, namely she actually struggles to catch high range champs without flashing or losing 75% of her HP while chasing them down.

SolusInCadere2 votes

this post is the type i am look ing for

"note that not all of these champions are OP, but their kits are designed in such a way that there is nothing you can do against them"

not sure how to quote you properly, but that is what I am trying to get at

LankPants1 votes

not sure how to quote you properly, but that is what I am trying to get at

It's the > symbol at the start of the pasted text

SolusInCadere1 votes

{quoted}

It's the > symbol at the start of the pasted text

lul, thx

Nameless Voice1 votes

This is exactly what I was talking about.

I would argue about Shaco though. He's designed to be annoying, but there are ways to deal with him - heavy warding, playing safe early-game, watching for his smoke, or outright turning around and murdering him if he tries to kill you, unless he's fed. He doesn't have anything in his kit that blocks you from reacting to him. If he gets caught out, he's dead.


The thing is, Riot are still making champions with this issue, even though it goes against their own design goals, specifically their stated goal of Counterplay:

Rich and exciting fights need to be two-sided, not one-sided. In order to dominate your opponent, you need to consistently outplay them, not just pull off that one perfect kill. League isn’t won at champion select and no phase of the game should be decided before a team steps up to fight. We strive to ensure a player's decisions, actions, and reactions matter.

While counterplay is a type of meaningful choice, it’s so important to League of Legends as a competitive multiplayer game that we consider it a pillar of our design values. A fight loses its excitement if the first punch wins – it's what you can do after that adds depth and complexity. We try to prevent hard counters and abilities with no room for reaction, as no game should be over without a real show of skill.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

jinx has an over 30% pick rate, and maintains a 55% win rate across all ranks. even after that tiny slap on her wrist. so yea. pretty sure she is batshit broken and needs to be nerfed into the ground.

should change her title into jinx - the living snowball. because fuck your team if your bot lane doesnt totally destroy her.

shes a lategame utility hypercarry who split pushes harder than sivir.

Nameless Voice1 votes

This is actually a good example. Jinx is currently considered overpowered (high pick rate, high win rate, generally good in most compositions) - but she's hardly complained about much. Why? Because she still has weaknesses. She has things she's good at, things she's bad at, and ways to deal with her. She may be better at her role than other champions, but she's not completely oppressive to play against.

She's overpowered, but she has a well-designed kit with strengths and weaknesses.

Troy2426211 votes

That's because any assassin worth his or her salt can jump onto and molest Jinx in about 2 seconds tops and she can't do anything except flash or hope she has peel. You can actually react to her. Kalista warps the entire game around her when picked -________-.

SolusInCadere2 votes

and Teemo warps the entire game around his ulti because now the enemy team has comparably less vision 24/7 and needs to buy at least 3 sweeping lenses to rid the game of free, damaging, slowing wards that last 10 min a piece.

But no one complains about it

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T73IkyoN,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-10T02:17:15.128+0000)

This is actually a good example. Jinx is currently considered overpowered (high pick rate, high win rate, generally good in most compositions) - but she's hardly complained about much. Why? Because she still has weaknesses. She has things she's good at, things she's bad at, and ways to deal with her. She may be better at her role than other champions, but she's not completely oppressive to play against.

She's overpowered, but she has a well-designed kit with strengths and weaknesses.

and what exactly is her weakness? please dont say mobility, because she has so many inbuilt kiting tools and a ghost on her passive, that triggers on assists, that it doesnt even matter.

and thats not counting a thresh between you and her.

i find her actually overpowered, because shes like the lee sin of ad carries. she has something of everything in her kit.

you want to fight her at close range? she switches to minigun and reks you. you want to get her support out of the way first? she goes into rocket mode and destroys you and everyone next to you like twitch on his ult.

the problem is that she actually has very little by way of weaknesses, because she can adapt her playstile to whoever shes fighting. either poke and long range damage with zap and rockets, or straight up facerolling with her minigun.

while most champions are either stuck with effectiveness at short or at long range.

she also has utility slapped onto her kit in places it doesnt make sense. for example, there is no logical explanation her w grants vision. its like putting vision on caitlyns net, just because.

LankPants1 votes

and what exactly is her weakness? please dont say mobility, because she has so many inbuilt kiting tools and a ghost on her passive, that triggers on assists, that it doesnt even matter.

Her weakness is an Assassin, Jinx is one of the most assassinatable champions in the game, she's super weak to being bursted.

Red Frostraven1 votes

{quoted}

Her weakness is an Assassin, Jinx is one of the most assassinatable champions in the game, she's super weak to being bursted.

Just like every non-tank dies to Katarina, Master Yi and Zed 1 to 1.

LankPants1 votes

Just like every non-tank dies to Katarina, Master Yi and Zed 1 to 1.

Firstly Yi really isn't an Assassin, he is in as much as he tends to kill carries first but he really struggles to burst anything he doesn't have 4 levels and an item on.

Jinx dies instantly to any assassin and some assassin like bruisers, and she does so with more ease than almost any other ADC. The only ADC who is more defenceless once you get up in their face is Kog'maw, and in some circumstances his E is actually better self peel than Jinx's.

I'd argue that Kat and Zed bursting literally everything is a flaw in their designs, although Yi is generally fine and also a very good Jinx counter

Some other champs who aren't primary assassins who are very good VS Jinx are Annie / Brand / Chogath / Hecarim / Irelia / JarvanIV / Jax / LeeSin / Malphite / Nasus / Nocturne / Skarner / Udyr / Vi / XinZhao / Syndra , although a lot of these champs fell out of favour with the rise of tanks, explaining why Jinx seems so dominant now.

Nameless Voice1 votes

She has no way to deal with people who get in her face, unless she's fed enough to beat them in a straight-up duel (which she generally shouldn't be against assassins and fighters.)

Vayne can Condemn and Tumble. Ezreal can Arcane Shift. Tristana can Rocket Jump. Caitlyn can use her net (again, close range is her weakness) Draven can use Stand Aside. Quinn can use Vault. Etc.

That leaves Jinx, Miss Fortune, Kog'maw, and to a slightly lesser extent Ashe as champions with no real way to deal with people in their faces.

Note that the nerf that Riot did give Jinx directly increased this weakness by stopping her using her ult point-blank to explode divers.

Raja Chachki1 votes

Ok, I am nitpicky, so i'm sorry if you dislike my comment. But do you honestly think Vi is overpowered, or did you just add her to the list because she was OP a month or two ago? Because I find the nerfs substantially subdued her damage, while leaving her tankiness.

SolusInCadere1 votes

i like VI, and think the nerfs were well placed. I put her on the list because people were having these complaints about her a couple months ago, the complaints I'm seeing with the others

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

Not everyone can be BestNA. Why should champions be nerfed because you didn't learn the game?

SolusInCadere1 votes

that's literally what I'm saying. It is not these champions being OP, it is that players need to adjust their playstyle whern fighting them

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