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[Talon's nerf] @Riot; A summary of the general community feedback

Jamatrix666··14 votes·1,931 views

In the past few days/weeks, I've been reading, watching videos, playing Talon a lot to know more about how he performs without his silence and to know if the compensation was the right one. Going thru the opinions I've seen and listened from the community, I decided to write here the main feedback from the players concerning Talon's nerf. To make it easier to read, I'll share the aspects of the feedback using numbers to avoid a big wall of text. Finally, take note that I didn't take into consideration opinions from people that were biased by poor knowledge of the game and Talon's kit (I have many examples of biased players to share if you guys are interested).

  1. The big majority of the people agree on the nerf. Talon's silence and burst wasn't allowing counterplay, especially at later stage of the game. A nerf was needed.
  2. The new slow isn't useless since it allow better positioning for Rake, allow an auto attack amplified by his passive and helps your jungler to reach the target for a nice gank... 3...but the slow also feels lackluster, uninteresting and unoriginal. Especially when people can think and suggest a lot of new tweaks for Cutthroat that will make it more interesting without being overpowered.
  3. Talon's needed a defensive compensation, not an offensive one. Players have suggested a lot of cool changes for Cutthroat, such as a stack mechanic similar to Darius' passive+Ult that would allow a silence at maximum stacks, or a damage reduction at the same time than the damage amplification, a silence if Cutthroat is used on a slowed enemy, etc. There are lots of original and fun suggestions that complete Talon's kit better than a 2nd slow.
  4. Talon is a much more risky pick than before (and he already was). Not many people can find decent advantages on using Talon instead of his assassin competitors now that he lost what made him unique.
  5. Cutthroat is now a very lackluster ability. We need to compare it to other gap closers. Almost all the others deal damages and can be used for an escape. Katarina's and Zed's are also mana-free. Cutthroat seems by far to be the less uninteresting gap closer among them all due to the reasons I just mentioned.

That's pretty much everything I got from the community feedback. I hope Riot gets to see this since it comes from the passionate Talon fans but also people who had a hard time against Talon. I think this make the general feedback more accurate.

14 Comments

Desiderium6 votes

At least make it interrupt channeled abilities.

I don't agree with giving it any form of CC, as that will limit his damage power budget. Reward Talon further for jumping into a target that has no escapes, or punishing them for being unable to use an escape.

Mercy: Talon's autoattacks and spells deal additional percentage damage for each percent of health his target is missing, up to 20%. This bonus is doubled if the target's movement is impaired in any way.

Cutthroat/Backstab: Blink behind target enemy. Increases damage to that enemy by 3/6/9/12/15%. Turns into Backstab. Backstab: Medium mana cost. Resets AA timer. Only able to hit an enemy from behind; it has zero effect from the front or sides. Deals 60/120/180/240/300 physical damage (+0.7 AD ratio) and gives Talon a 1.5 second 40% speed increase. If backstab isn't used within 3 seconds, it turns back into Cutthroat. Cutthroat's cooldown will continue to go down while Backstab is active. Backstab always has 15% armor penetration.

HelsTR1 votes

You have Noxian Diplomacy in order to combo with Cutthroat. My idea would be to rise the Noxian diplomacy to 0.5 bonus AD (from 0.3 it is now), and give double use to Cutthroat. When using on an enemy, you jump in as it is now. When not, you dash in the direction of your cursor. As well, each 9 abilities you land on an enemy, your ninth skill is powered up. Q with extra damage, w with extra slow and e with silence, and r with movement speed as well as more time on stealth.

I would like the idea of Noxian diplomacy for more damage from the back, but you already have Shaco with that passive, and in fact, I think it has that name (backstab). No, IMO talon should have his own unique playstyle, based on a silence each 9 skills landed on an enemy (which are pretty much, ask rengar) or either extra damage on the q, or extra slow in the w. Allows talon to make different plays each time, bassed on what your team needs of you. For example, if you are jungler and want to kill that fucking singed at the top, a 99% slow can come really handy. For some champs in the middle, a silence can be a good way to get rid of them, however, having one each time you jump in, gives the enemy no posibilities to react Talon's combo which, in the other hand, lacked enough damage, something that can be corrected with the extra damage from the improved q. You must choose between silencing, slow, or damage or even extra stealth + extra movement speed in your ult. I feel it as a good, valid option.

Vulpes Inculta6 votes

I really like the idea of making Cutthroat into a dash-like ability. That way, if he jumps in to silence, he can be cc'd out of it. Similar to how a Fizz dash or Quinn pounce is in terms of speed. That way, if Talon get's hit by a snare or stun, it cancels the dash, and the target doesn't get silenced. A cc trade, if you will. It gives a bit of time to react to him pouncing on you, while still keeping it so Talon is able to do his job properly and still have his window for escape in tact. If he fails the dash, then hey, he gets punished for it. Fairness all around, I think.

As a Talon main, I agree he needed a bit of a nerf in terms of his silence especially because it was a point-n'-click blink silence. Its easy to lose track of him in teamfights, because when he blinks to his chosen target, you have to figure out which carry he jumped on to do his job. This can cause momentary confusion for both enemy and teammate alike. If the enemy team doesn't react fast enough, they lose a member. If the ally team follows up on the wrong target, Talon can potentially be squashed. The blink had to go.

Riot also failed to realize that Talon is a unique case in that, unlike LeBlanc and Kassadin (the other notable champs who had their silences removed,) he does not have the same amount of mobility as they do. (Same when compared to Zed and Fizz. They can also be counted here, since Zed has his shadows and Fizz has his troll pole on top of a dash.) Once Talon jumps in, he's in, and has no real window to escape anymore, since he can be easily cc locked or displaced, and has to rely on his ult for his escape, which is easily countered by a pink ward. He also is melee, save for rake, which has a high mana cost, which is not ideal for harassing.

Overall, since this change, Talon feels very... clunky. He is still a pretty good champion, sure, but now he's being countered and bullied out of lanes by champions he was designed to counter in the first place. The extra 200 or so damage he gets with the Mercy-buffed auto is not a rewarding enough payoff for putting yourself into harms way, especially with no means to escape.

Riot, listen to some suggestions we have to see if you can compromise with us. Cutthroat really feels really odd now, especially when you bring the rest of his kit and abilities into consideration.

Thanks. :)

Jamatrix6661 votes

Thank you for your post Miss Ko :)

I agree with everything you said, except the part about making the blink into a dash :P Here is why I believe it needs to stay; I think Cutthroat is already down the list in term of gap closer quality (since it deals no damages and doesn't allow escape unlike the others). The fact that it's an instant blink instead of a dash is currently one of the only advantage Cutthroat has over the other gap closers because it lets even less time to the opponent to react. Talon needs this advantage, especially since he lost his 1 second window of security due to his silence loss, making it a dash would give away that precious quarter/half-second of surprise Talon has over his opponent when he instantly teleports behind them :P

Just think about how more surprising and quick you get jumped on by Katarina instead of Kha Zix ;) It is much easier to handle Kha Zix's jump than Katarina's blink.

Vulpes Inculta2 votes

I agree his blink makes him unique. I'm not denying Cutthroat's power there at all. It's arguably the most powerful gapcloser in the game as it can make for some very, very nasty surprises. Though, surprises, like I said, can cause confusion on both sides of the playing field, and his E just ends up being a very poor double-edged sword now with no safety to follow it up (window of escape, hard cc, etc.) I don't mind it staying, granted he gets a defensive compensation, whether it be an incoming damage reduction type thing or a better cc option/reduced silence duration. :) I should have made that more clear that I personally don't mind it myself, I was speaking from an objective standpoint. We agree the blink is probably the strongest point of the ability, and a dash would allow him to keep his silence cc but still allow for some outplay for his opponents.

My idea is one of many, really. I'm in favor of the dash, personally. And, I would suggest it be closer to Irelia or Akali in terms of dash speed, so it still feels powerful and closer to his current gap-closing strength as the blink, but... that seems a bit too sudden to react to with the silence immediately following. Even a well timed AOE cc from say Lissandra would have a hard time catching him then. (Though, from the Talon-player perspective, I like the idea, because you have an assassin flying at you at 5000mph and if the enemy misses their counter CC, you get to silence them immediately after and its practically RIP.) Even a super fast dash offers more openings for counterplay than the blink, so something of that speed is still a viable option. Food for thought!

Like I said, my idea is one of many. I've seen so many proposed ideas, I hope Riot picks one or combines a few into a Cutthroat we Talon players will come to enjoy.

Constantine222 votes

have you actually thought about his E having charges like Akali's ult? like blinking twice but with no silence or slow . just the amplification. that way the enemy has time to dash away AND talon has a way to stick to him like a zed can with Ult and then W. or fizz with Q and then E. or leblanc with W and then ulti. i mean Talon right now is the only assassin who has only one gam close. without the silence once he E a lucian and lucian dashes, Talon gets kited to death. Vayne pushes him. just pressing E and clicking Talon and watch as a vayne just chases talon and once talon E to her he gets instantly pushed and kited to death. ezreal blink away and kites him to death to. malzahar just clicks Talon with his ulti. so is syndra and lissandra. he is pretty much free kill for them now. :-/

AnomalousChimera1 votes

Suggested change to Cutthroat : In addition to the 99% slow in those 0.25 seconds, all voluntary displacement away from Talon from an affected target is halved (applied after the soft cap), including those from blinks/dashes/teleports during that 0.25 second period.

So Flashing away would hardly move you away at all should you choose to use it during that quarter of a second after getting hit by Cutthroat. The knockback from Tristana's ult (and any other involuntary movement) would not be affected since it wouldn't be voluntary movement on your part. If you move toward Talon during those 0.25 seconds, then you're only affected by the 99% slow and not the extra slow. If Zed were to switch places with his shadow, the shadow would end up where Zed was, but Zed would only blink to the midway point between where Zed and his shadow originally were.

HelsTR1 votes

I don't feel it as a valid option, but it might work. I would preffer however a Talon with more mobility rather than just invalidating his rival movement.

EyceAether1 votes

Talon's damage is mostly concentrated into his ult, if they redistributed it around his skills and changed things a bit he'd have more leeway to change his rotation. That and moving is stealth from his ult would go a long way towards making him more viable. If his ult rooted/snared and had less of the damage in his burst combo he'd be played differently. Put the stealth on Cut Throat, put a root on both parts of his ult and voila, Talon is different!

Noxian Diplomacy - 200 Damage - 22.2% Rake - 130x2 Damage - 28.8% Shadow Assault - 220x2 Damage - 48.8%

HelsTR1 votes

Noxian Diplomacy doesn't make enough damage and is supposed to be a skill for finishing your victim. But scales in 0.3 of Talon's bonus ad. That means, supposing that you are about 210 of bonus ad (to round it), 63 + 150 = 213 + the damage of your base attack, that supposing a total ad of 330 (120 base ad at level 18 I don't know how much base ad has talon at lvl 18, is rounded), it would be 543 of total PHYSICAL damage on hit, with a cooldown of 4 seconds in the last level. Meanwhile, supposing the same AD, Kha deals 221+170 = 391 of damage each 3.5 seconds, supposing the target is not isolated. But when it is, the damage increases drastically to the point of making the enemy dissapear.

Rengar deals each 4 seconds with his q 150 + 1.20 of his total AD, this is, supposing 330 total ad, 1.20 of 330 would be 396 +150 = 546 each 4 seconds. He can store 2 q at a time. In adittion, if the q get's powered, he can store 2 q's, the second one (with ferocity up) dealing up to 240 + 1.5 total AD (495 supposing 330)= 735 and giving from 50% bonus attack speed up to 101% (depending on the level). This means rengar deals with a double q 546 + 735 = 1291 of damage, that is later reduced by the armor of the opponent. But the brute damage that deals Rengar with only 2 q's is 1291. To this you must add the attack speed steroid from the enhanced q + the e which slows the enemy the enough time to finishin' him off. If there is still posible to do the triple q, that damage would increase even more. I preffer not to talk about Yi q's damage Yasuo's one. Those crits are broken.

And Zed? In comparision to talon, his q deals 100% of his bonus AD to the first enemy, and 60% to the rest, and his e deals 80% of his total damage. But in addition, his w passively multiplies the AD that zed haves. Even worse than yi's e, that gives plain ad, this one gives a % of the ad you have.

Conclussion, late game, almost any champ is better than Talon doing his job, sincehas to do the full combo on you in order to kill you, and even though... he may not without his ult, and he can not get back to the old position in order to execute the combo again, neither has methods of escape once he kills his victim.

Talon needs kinda rework or something, and redistribute better his damage, or he will be almost useless without ult.

HelsTR1 votes

As an assasin player, I subscribe all that this players say. LB, Fizz, Akali, and almost any assasin champ you might imagine, has some sort of escape that Talon lacks of. As well, I feel him without enough burst. And what I mean here is that his burst is very limited. Have this in account. Akali has more than enough burst to do his job. He can jump on a carry and kill him/her without using his 3 charges. What about fizz? Once he gets the lich's bane, you are off. For sure. No matter what. With q, you have half of your life down. With, e + second lich bane, you are sure dead. If he lands a ult on you, you are dead just with r q w and he can still get out with e. But talon... Man. You need for sure your ult if you want to burst down your target. And we better don't talk about lb. Kassa is the only and one ap assasin lacking this incredible burst. Even ahri has whe she does his full combo + deathfire grasp. And she is tagged as a mage in first role, more than assasin.

You may say, however, this is because I have been listing ap assasins. Okay. Take a look at Kha. Ad assasin. He can burst you with just one skill with a stupid CD. Talon has not that enormous burst. Yes, surely, he can burst you down. But he needs even the ult in order to do so, almost all the times. Why? Cause his q doesn't offer the enough burst damage which is supposed to provide. His w is ok, makes a decent ammount of damage, and slows. His e amplificates the damage you deal on a target, and his passive makes you deal more damage to slowed targets. That's fucking right. But his q? Take a look.

"Talon's next autoattack deals 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+0.3 per bonus attack damage) additional physical damage. If the target is a champion, they will bleed, taking 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+1.0 per bonus attack damage) over 6 seconds and revealing their location for the duration."

Meanwhile, kha...

"Active: Deals 70 / 95 / 120 / 145 / 170 (+1.2 per bonus attack damage) physical damage to a single target. Damage against isolated targets is significantly increased to 91 / 123.5 / 156 / 188.5 / 221 (+1.56 per bonus attack damage).

Evolving claws increases damage to targets isolated targets by 10 times your level (+2.6 per bonus attack damage). Kha'Zix also gains 50 increased range on both Taste Their Fear and his basic attacks."

You see the difference? Yes, you nailed it, the AD ratios. While kha has an ad ratio of 1.2 bonus ad, in the worst of the cases, Talon has an AD ratio of 0.3 bonus AD. Ok, yes, the target bleeds. BUT THAT IS NOT BURST, AND THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT WHEN PLAYING AN ASSASIN. It doesn't fits with an assasin playstile. More even nowadays. You might say, however, that talon has his w to compensate this.

Talon sends out a volley of daggers in a cone that then quickly return back to him. This attack deals 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 (+0.6 per bonus attack damage) physical damage every time it passes through an enemy. Additionally, the enemy is slowed by 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% for 2 seconds.

Meanwhil Kha...

Kha'Zix fires spikes that explode on contact, dealing 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+1.0 per bonus attack damage) physical damage to all nearby enemies, and slows them by 20% for 2 seconds. Kha'Zix is healed by 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+50% of ability power) if he is within the explosion radius. Void Spikes cannot be cast during Leap. This deals 20% bonus damage to monsters.

Evolving spike racks causes Void Spike to fire three projectiles in a cone, and increases the slow to 50% and gives sight of champions hit for 2 seconds.

¿Do you realize? Talon's higher AD ratio is in his bleeding ability, which is not A BURST, then, not assasin leaned, and that's why he needs his fucking ult to burst down an enemy.

His e...

Talon instantly appears behind his target, applying a 99% slow to them for 0.25 seconds and amplifying his damage against that target by 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 % for 3 seconds.

This 15% amplyfied damage does not compensate for his lack of burst.

(Follows in the next post)

HelsTR1 votes

Summing it up. Talon's w makes a decent ammount of damage, having in mind that is a skill used not only for the damage, but for the slow aswell, and the e makes a good amplification of damage. But his q has such a bad AD ratio on hit, that you feel unable to finish off your victim.

All this lack of burst wouldn't mind if Talon had a decent tool for pursuiting his victim and kill it for sure. However, if the victim dashes, teleports, etc, he won't be able to finish his job. When he had the silence, he denied the escape with flash or any other ability of that type, but now an enemy adc, which most likely will have some sort of repositioning skill, can flee Talon's full combo if he has the enough reflexes. You can't get the combo, and you don't have a way to pursuit your enemy. You are fucked off, pissed off, you are fuckin raging at the nerf in his e. Ofc. It is natural. Talon is an assasin which is the anti-assasin. He has burst, but not enough, and he can currently be easy evaded, and in top of this, once he goes in, he has no way to escape. Ofc he can be played, but he does not provides with the things that he used to. As well, as the game grew up and more champions were added, other assasins filled the position as AD assasin that he used to fill. Rengar, Kha, Yi, or Yasuo (and there might be more which I don't realize at the momment) make much better when talking about bursting down enemies. And on top of that, Yi and Yasuo also have an enormous dps and better mobility.

So... how to fix Talon? Well you have to options. Either just giving him more burst in his q and giving him back his silence (something that I wouldn't really like) OR with a slightly rework.

  1. I would give e a double use. When used on an enemy champion, he teleports behind him and amplyfies damage as it does now. When used without targeting an enemy champion, is a dash used for repositioning. Optional: If not used on an enemy, reduces the cooldown for a third of the total time (Half would be too much).

  2. I would give him a charging system similar to Rengar (but without being a resource). Each time you land a skill on an enemy, you get a charge. At 9 charges, he upgrades one of his next abilities.

  • The improved q deals either true damage OR physicall damage with a ratio of +1.0 bonus ad instead of regular +0.3 (which I would rise to +0.5). I would change the bleeding ratio to 0.5 as well (1.0 is too much) or directly remove it. The true damage might be abusive, or the ratio might be, but I feel like one of this two things is what he is lacking of.

  • The improved w slows for a 99% which decays on time (this is based on what it does now the w, but merging the current slow from the e and the currently slow from the w in one and only skill)

  • The e silences for a brief time if casted on an enemy or inmediately refreshes cd if used when dashing.

  • His R gives him extra time on stealth and extra movement speed.

What I am proposing might seem a really op buff, but have this in account. ¿Which skill can you land on an enemy in a teamfight as talon without putting yourself in an extreme danger? Only the w. It would take to you a lot of time to land 9 skills on enemy champs without putting yourself in danger. And once you got it, you should think wisely which ability to use. In the laning phase, however might be much more op, but it is all a matter of testing. In adittion, it would only bring him more burst and more mobility than what it haves now but in a moderate way. And using the e for moving and dashin would prevent Talon from going in with amplification damage for some seconds. At least think 'bout it.

Voilá, there you go. A new Talon mantaining it's coreplay but even improved, which at the same time allows counterplay and you can mess later to change damages values, and all those things in order to balance him (since 0.8 bonus ad might be really too much damage).

ButterlesssToast1 votes

Talon should really be allowed to keep his silence. He's the ONLY assassin currently that when he goes all in he has literally no escape ability and only has one gap closer compared to all the other assassins.

  • Zed can easily go back in and out of a fight with his 1.5 invincible ult and then use his shadow.
  • Leblanc can W and back plus her ult and has a lot of juke opportunities.
  • Akali's escape is similar to talon's except she has 3 gapclosers/ escape times plus her shroud. Plus the ability to build zhona's
  • Ahri can charm and easily ult outside of difficult situations. etc.

WHAT CAN TALON DO? He can ult and then slowly (20% movement speed not enough when your surrounded by enemies) walk away from a team fight full of snares and skill shots that are BOUND to hit him. That's only if he didn't already use his ult to engage. You can also easily pink ward him which makes his ult escape useless.

I don't understand where this popular message of counterplay is coming from. WHAT ABOUT ZED!

HelsTR1 votes

Point here is that Talon in the laning phase creates a lot of pressure with a silence each 20 seconds. Is too much for mage characters. They don't have a way to counter Talon's combo. He might or might not kill you, but he will always win the trade since he can enter with q charged, then w you, autoattack and get away almost without being hit. Zed CAN'T do that. Against orianna, for example, he goes in, tries to harass and orianna can block his damage with his e + the mobility of his w to dodge Zed q. The only valid option to zed is force Orianna to spend her mana, since Zed uses energy and can stay in lane. Post 6 Zed vs Orianna is absolutely abusive Orianna's advantage. Orianna plays passive and wait's for jungler gank. She still has tools to farm good under tower so Zed doesn't gets enough advantage from his push. In addition, playing so agresive makes him more vulnerable to a jungler gank, so he has to save his w to escape from a possible gank instead of using it to create more pressure. This ends with Orianna rushing item 3157 and countering Zed ult. Just by having the item. Zed gets completely countered in mid.

However, take a look to Talon. With his silence, he assures himself a pressure on lane since he avoids any source of damage that is not a aa for a short time. The enough time to do the full combo and get away without problems. With a couple of harass from his w, he can go in, even diving the turret, asure himself a kill and get away losing only (in the best of the cases) half of his life. If he can do this each 18 seconds in level one (less with CDR) imagine what kind of pressure creates in the enemy. He zones without the need of any zoning item. Just with his pressence. This feels pretty abusive. However, if he had to land skills in his rival in order to get a silence in his e, you would be providing some window of counterplay, or at least reducing the pressure created by his pressence. From one silence each time he can engage, to one silence each 9 skills, which is pretty much having in count that he only has his w to harass from a safe position.

In the teamfights, however, all his advantages turn against him. Since he can be focused by 5 people, he gets smashed, probably without any posibilities to make the full combo on his target, or even having not enough burst doing the whole combo because of his poor q scaling. The opposite to an assasin, which has methods to burst down an enemy and escape, he will need his ult to engage or either to finish of his victim, making himself useless the next time he enters because he can't assure a kill to himself. Riot needs to fix that. As soon as possible. I think givin' cutthroat some kind of extra mobility and raising the scaling in the q would be a great point. In adddition, if you force him to have to charge his silence (or any other skill that he want's to use) you reduce pressure in lane, but also give more playstyle variants to his kit.

This is my opinion, at least.

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