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Community needs to talk about Talon's over-nerf

Jamatrix666··47 votes·5,273 views

Please read the whole thread before having presumptions on what looks to be a "Wahhh I'm crying because they nerfed my favorite champion". You'll see my thread is more constructive than that. Thanks in advance.

First of all, I need to say that I agree that a 1 second silence on a high burst AD caster assassin IS toxic. It is true that it offers little to no counterplay, and people thinking the opposite are either not realistic or just dishonest.

What I don't understand is why did Riot decide to remove it completely instead of nerfing it to 0.5 second? Or why not implement a "Mercy" stack system that would trigger at 5 stacks and silence an opponent champion, stacks being obtained when damaging a champion like stacks from the Black Cleaver. There are just so many more interesting options... Or why not buff another aspect of his kit to compensate? His passive could definitely need some love make it be 10% more damage from ALL Talon sources of damages? The damage scaling on his Rake could be tweaked to deal more damages at early ranks while still having the same damages at rank 5. There are tons of suggestions that could make more sense than removing a central aspect of a champion's burst.

Kassadin and LeBlanc: Removing Talon's silence is removing the only thing in his kit that allowed him to fulfill his role. Remember he doesn't have hyper mobility like Kassadin and Leblanc? When they would screw up, they could leave after their burst, with insane potential of juking. When Talon screws up, he has no reliable escape; a 2.5 seconds invisibility every 55 seconds (rank 3 Ultimate) is not an reliable escape, especially since it's a heavily offensive ability. THIS is why Kassadin and LeBlanc had higly toxic silences compared to Talon; because they could get out of trouble after their burst without even fearing of retaliation.

Talon isn't like them. His silence wasn't as much toxic, since he had to fully commit himself for the whole fight and put his life in serious danger considering the absence of any defensive ability in his kit. Assassin's aren't really characterized as just high burst champions, take Annie, Gragas, Brand for example. They have high burst but they are not assassins because of their lack of strategic outplay like a good Zed, LeBlanc or Fizz player for instance. Now, not only Talon never had close to these previous champion's mobility and outplay possibilities, but now the only thing that could help him fulfill his role (assassinate people) has been completely removed instead of tweaked.

It IS possible to find a more interesting way to tweak Talon. It is possible to find a way to change his kit to allow counter play from the enemy without punishing him to hard for being extremely good at what his job is, deleting people.

Please, rate up this thread to let Riot know that while we understand the nature of the changes on Talon, we, as Talon users and lovers, feel that a nerf or a tweak to his E would be much more pertinent than a complete removal of his silence. I'm sure you guys have ideas like the ones I shared, please let us see it here.

136 Comments

Serpents Embrace19 votes

I mean, people talked about Sona's changes and they still happened. People talked about Cass's changes and they still happened. They're not sneaking them in here, the community knows. It's just a lot of the designers simply don't seem to care, or they'll "weigh" the opinions but not change anything.

I'm probably just bitter and jaded, but it's unlikely they're going to change anything about the Talon nerf because he isn't Lee Sin, and so far that's the only champion who dodged a terrible change that wiped them off of the face of viability.

Jamatrix6666 votes

Pessimistic point of view, but also a realistic one unfortunately... I'm with you my friend... If Talon is forgotten by Riot after this nerf, then it's a sad, sad day for every Talon users... Talon 's fan base isn't as big as other champion's, but I do know that it has passionate players and that's what can upset me the most. To know that so many people care about this champion and can bring tons of interesting tweaks instead to fix that toxic aspect of Talon .

Ratbert13 votes

Passionate players don't matter either RIP Karma's fans

Freljordan5 votes

Karma is pretty strong what are you talking about? Just because they change someone doesn't mean its worse

Wullf3 votes

Karma used to be THE support. Now she is "press the Q" support. Yes she is strong. If you like pressing buttons and hitting skillshot.

AbiwonKenabi4 votes

Oh man, pressing buttons and hitting skillshots? You mean like the main way of playing this game?

Wullf1 votes

well there is more behind League than pressing buttons and hitting skillshots.

Nhifu2 votes

Karma is actually really strong. . prob one of the best sups to keep your adc alive

Azlagor8 votes

The karma changes were just pretty massive, not only some smaller rework, she became an entirly new champ with prettymuch nothing of her old kit and feeling left.

New karama isn't a bad champ by all means, but i still miss old Karma as she offered a unique feeling and playstyle that now is missing in the league

Rew7111 votes

I want to say something;

If a champ gets a nerf, it isn't good. But there are plus'.

  1. You now have a champ that people rarely play and you know best. You can evade them better unless they have unfair advantages.

  2. It makes it so you will need more skill for the champ. That will give you more honor. And will frustrate your enemy team.

The silence though was a major plus but it had to go. Those who had mastered Talon had the big advantage of stopping large attacks. A Kassadin vs a Talon would be very mis-matched and Riot is trying to work around this to allow more fairness. For what ever reasons they may have.

Azlagor5 votes

Just that talons silenc was prettymuch the one thing that made it worth picking him over Zed or Fizz as an Assasin. It allowed him to counter other assasins by bursting them befor they burst, and it made him a strong pick vs very slippery carrys like Ezreal. Now Fizz just R+Es if u step on him, and u probably die. Zed simply presses R and dodges half ur damage, or he just Ws away...Most off the champs which u countered with talon are now a bad matchup atleast in high elos

Now u prettymuch have an weaker zed, worse waveclear and poke, vs all-in, no realy more aoe-damage, not more utillity, far less mobillity and lower dps....why would anyone pick talon if zed is open(unless he can't handle Zed in terms of mechanics)

i'm not saying Talon was healthy or balanced, but if he stays as he is now, he will not see play in higher elos. He needs some small rework, shifting some of his all-in burst into dps and survivabillity(slippery counts to survivabillity for me, as it helps u to get out off fights alive)

Jamatrix6664 votes

Now u pretty much have an weaker zed, worse waveclear and poke, vs all-in, no realy more aoe-damage, not more utillity, far less mobillity and lower dps....why would anyone pick talon if zed is open

True... And nah, Talon must not become a DPS champion, but he needs something that compensate for his silence loss. More specifically, a new mechanic provided by tweaking his already existing abilities. For instance, Cutthroat apply a 0.5 silence on slowed enemy only. Or, Cutthroat's cooldown is reduced by 1 second every time Rake hits an enemy champion. Or, using Cutthroat on a bleeding enemy resets the 6 seconds bleeding timer.

These are just simple examples to show how easy it is for Riot to come up with a more creative and reliable compensation to this nerf than a 0.25 second slow.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

I saw someone suggest a rework of his passive that gave him stealth every time he killed an enemy...

It'd be a pretty massive change on its own, but it would give him the kind of safety reward for the risk. And unlike Zed or Fizz he'd have to succeed in the assassination to have access to it...

Jamatrix6662 votes

I'm pretty sure that was me ;) I'll try to find it, even tho I remember writing that new passive suggestion monthssss ago...

Jamatrix6663 votes

I can't find the thread, but yeah, the basic idea was to give a 1 second of stealth every time he kills an enemy champion, and a 2 seconds stealth if the enemy champion was killed by himself only (without his team mates to have an assist on it). The stealth breaks prematurely if Talon uses any ability or summoner spell. This passive would make sense on an assassin like Talon, it would make honor to his lore and his title "The Blade's Shadow", and it would give him a very unique flavor. Of course the current passive would be deleted.

That's a topic for another thread, but yeah, it could be a neat compensation for the loss of his silence.

Rinky Dinky6 votes

The community was wrong on Sona's rework, as it is a massive success. All the sona mains claiming she sucks now dont know what they are talking about. I main her, and she is alot more fun and effective than before. Cant say the same about cass tho xD

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

I agree, I actually really like the Sona rework. She has great sustain still, and I think it cured her of her unfun poke sustain gameplay.

Cass they are at least looking at. We'll see where that goes.

Zushakon4 votes

Agreed. I like the new Sona much better than the old Sona.

On the original topic, the problem with Talon wasn't the silence. It was that he was so binary. If you got ahead, you could 100-0 someone and escape and there wasn't anything they could do about it. But if you got behind, then you were just a squishy person with no cc or mobility next to a pissed off carry with their cooldowns up. In my opinion, Cutthroat should not silence (to allow a quick fingered player an opportunity to escape) but should apply the same slow as Rake (to proc his passive) and one or both of the following (A) Be usable on any unit, not just enemy units (like Jax's Leap Strike and Katarina's Shunpo) (B) Should either reset on a champion kill or assist (like Tristana's Rocket Jump or Kha'Zix evolved Leap), or should have 2 charges.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

She feels more effective because you get more immediate rewards.

She is less effective, numerically. She's also less effective in range, although this was a "bug". Just like the change to Cass's E was a 'bug". Because they fuck up after doing a rush job to hack together these low quality reworks, and don't get things functioning as they claim they'll function.

It's different from under-tuning. :\ It's just bad work.

Rinky Dinky2 votes

She feels more effective because you get more immediate rewards.

She is less effective, numerically. She's also less effective in range, although this was a "bug". Just like the change to Cass's E was a 'bug". Because they fuck up after doing a rush job to hack together these low quality reworks, and don't get things functioning as they claim they'll function.

It's different from under-tuning. :\ It's just bad work.

I disagree. She does her job better than she did before, and is more fun to play. Her play and winrates have gone up. With the addition of her q being returned to 700 range, her rework as a complete success in my eyes. I also believe she has even received attention in worlds this year (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Sire Hippington8 votes

I'm with you here, It seems like riot doesn'T care about anny gameplay and balance feedback in the beta-phase of a change, the PBE seems to only exist for bugfixing while balancing then is done 1-2 patches after release....Atleast thats my perception since i have a Beta-acount, as many, many changes went life that the beta-comunity was against. It weren't controverse things, but simply a straight 'no' from the comunity(first version of Essence-Reaver for example).

The Crow King7 votes

They didn't change it to a .5 second silence because point-and-click silences remove all counter play from the game (no idea why fiddles isnt getting his removed, but i think it's just because its a huge part of his kit, unlike talon who just needs the jump). A bursty ad assassin with any kind of silence is stupidly broken and im glad riot agrees. What it seems you don't understand is that even without the silence he's strong, he still has invisibility on a damaging ult, he still has CC that does decent damage, and he still has a gap closer. His core gameplay hasn't changed, you just might need to pop your ult earlier than before.

Jamatrix66610 votes

A 0.5 second silence is far from being OP since it allows Talon to do 1/3 of his entire burst combo. If you cannot survive or counter this, then it's not Talon being OP, it's you not counter-building correctly or not being at the right place at the right time.

Daishø5 votes

Yeah. With talons full 1 second silence, he could get his entire combo of, so he could all in you and 100/0 incredibly fast, but know his E does practically nothing. But if he had a .5 second silence, he wouldn't be able to completely burst you done. Yes his poke would still be annoying, but other then that, its better then completely taking out his silence and replacing it with a .25 second 99% slow. In that time, a Zed can get hit with the E, and W away before talon really does anything.

Heedprime7 votes

I agree that the 99% slow for 0.25 seconds is not that good. What they should have done is make it so his silence interrupts channeled abilties and slows for 50% for 0.5 seconds. That way he can still counter champions like Kat rather than be too afraid to E in.

Vulpes Inculta2 votes

I agree. A channel interruption would be a nice addition to this change. It'll give him a bit more survivability, especially in the early game.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

I would rather have them actually talk about talon than the .25 slow

Cloud Potato6 votes

It IS possible to find a more interesting way to tweak Talon. It is possible to find a way to change his kit to allow counter play from the enemy without punishing him to hard for being extremely good at what his job is, deleting people.

This is what it comes down to. The Silence removal doesn't address the root of Talon's problems at all, which is that his combo deals too much damage for how low counterplay it has. The Silence removal helps champions who have something to counter Talon's combo, such as hard CC or a dash, but anyone without either of those available is still screwed should Talon get ahead. Talon will have a harder time getting ahead now, but he's also crappy when behind, which is another problem they could address. In short, he needs a rework.

Intimidator6 votes

Point and click 700 range blink + silence did not have any counterplay. It's not fun to watch talon press a button and unleashes his full combo while you can't do anything to stop it.

God forbid talon mains actually have to use strategy to kill someone instead of mashing buttons. As for Xerath/Ziggs god forbid talon actually has to bait out the CC or dash to kill someone. Use the blink on E to dodge their main damage spell. Use R to move and close the gap and press E to follow when they use their gapcloser.

Tapu Fini5 votes

Lord forbid you actually read the thread and see that there's proposed mechanical changes for the silence. Yes, on demand silences are not the most fun (Hint: CC isn't intended to be fun for the target,) but the silence is still crucial to his kit. They could have made counterplay for it, through a system of stacks, making it a skillshot.... Something. Instead, they removed it, with no compensation other than a massive slow for a split second.

And if you're going against an assassin, without building any health or armor, you deserve to be full->zero'd. That is their job.

Jamatrix6664 votes

Yes, on demand silences are not the most fun (Hint: CC isn't intended to be fun for the target,) but the silence is still crucial to his kit. They could have made counterplay for it, through a system of stacks, making it a skillshot.... Something. Instead, they removed it, with no compensation other than a massive slow for a split second.

Thank you, these words really sum up my thoughts on Talon's changes; While an instant 1 second silence can be OP, we would prefer more creativity into the Cutthroat tweaking, maybe even in relation with other Talon abilities, to implement a situational silence. In other words, there would be counter play possibilities from the enemy, while the good Talon player could still enjoy a 0.5 to 1 second secure window to open his burst.

Pika3105 votes

LeBlanc's silence was less powerful than Talon's as it required 2 spell casts rather than Talon's 1, yet it got removed for lacking counterplay too. Personally, I'm glad they're removing silence from assassins and the game as a whole will be more balanced for it.

As an ex-LeBlanc player, I always hated myself for having to use her and found no enjoyment in playing her kit. She may still be too weak to function atm, but when I do grab her into normals I found myself having more fun than before. Now that the toxicity from Talon's kit has been removed, I may even give him a try as well.

VeryStubbornGuy5 votes

While what you say about LeBlanc is true, we have to remember LeBlanc's silence was free harsh poke on her opponent since she can distortion away whenever she needs to.

When Talon gets in range, once the silence is gone, he's in the worst position since he stands at a certain proximity to the enemy that makes skill shots and point and click abilities very easy to land on him. In other words, retaliation is possible and easy against Talon's combo. Not LeBlanc's combo.

Tapu Fini3 votes

And Sigil->Distortion->Return wasn't exactly a difficult combo. Yes Leblanc's required followup, but it also didn't leave her stuck at the enemy's position.

Hullabaloo9075 votes

Really the most frustrating thing is that riot is not talking about talon, and keep portraying it as a minor nerf that only effects a few of his match ups.

Possta4 votes

I'm glad they removed it. Now I have a chance to fight back against him.

Vellich0r5 votes

i understand what you are saying, but what they did was still an overnerf. Now Talon has too much counter play, because his only way of getting in also puts him into a state of hyper vulnerability. against any champ with a stun, knockback, dash, snare, charm, etc which encompasses about every mid laner in the game, Talon cant use his dash for the simple fact that its just delivering a free kill to the opposing laner. Champions he was designed to counter now counter him in a major way (lookin at you vel' koz)

Jamatrix6665 votes

i understand what you are saying, but what they did was still an overnerf. Now Talon has too much counter play, because his only way of getting in also puts him into a state of hyper vulnerability. against any champ with a stun, knockback, dash, snare, charm, etc which encompasses about every mid laner in the game, Talon cant use his dash for the simple fact that its just delivering a free kill to the opposing laner. Champions he was designed to counter now counter him in a major way (lookin at you vel' koz)

This is just so true. Now that Talon doesn't have this small security window, using E on an enemy champion is BEGGING to be hard CC'ed. At the moment you blink to them, they have the advantage of landing that skill shot or that point-and-click ability that will always, ALWAYS counter Talon. Why always? Because unlike Katarina, Zed, Fizz and almost every other assassins, Talon has no way to get out of combat, except a 2.5 seconds invisibility that Talon needs to kill someone. Now that Talon lost his 1 second security window, which was his only advantage against other champions, he will need more often to use his ultimate as an escape mechanism. Which is approximately 25% to 33% of his entire burst.

Freljordan4 votes

Now I'm not saying Talon wasn't over-nerfed here because I think he was, but I think we should play the new Talon before we totally condemn it. The 99% slow DOES have some potential. All I'm saying is lets wait and see before we pull out our pitchforks and torches and march on Rito HQ guys.

Vellich0r6 votes

it doesnt though, its a micro slow, it isnt actually 99% (because the movespeed can only go so low) and the only possible bonus (proccing your passive) probably wont happen because you are too busy using rake. He no longer does well against xerath (oops, did i stun you?) ziggs (satchel charge) ahri (now YOU are getting insta killed talon) zed (fear the shadows) velkoz (knockback and stunned?) etcetera. They are making dashing in a poor choice against almost any champion because not only do you have no safe window to burst, you have such a pointless cc that the blink is better used for things like, i dunno, warding a jungle camp and escaping over a wall. We know from trundle bundle that microslows are virtually pointless, so why do one like this? why not a .25 second snare? (Which allows counterplay while still providing talon a solid chance of getting a combo off)

Vulpes Inculta3 votes

Quite frankly, I dislike his E change. Talon needs a tiny bit of hard cc when he's going to jump in for the kill. He's melee, and he can't exactly poke all that often, thanks to the high mana cost of his W. Unlike LeBlanc and Kassadin, the two other namable champions that had their silences removed, Talon lacks the mechanics to leap away after going in to burst. If he jumps in and messes up, he's going to pay the price. Tower dives (especially early on) are also extremely risky for him for the same reason. He needs to be careful of who, when, and where he decides to engage, unlike again, those two who could dive, burst, and leap away.

Having even a small silence (0.5 seconds is more than enough for a decent Talon to get half of his combo down) would be nice. This slow that's just long enough to land a single Mercy-buffed auto attack really isn't worth jumping in for without some sort of way to get back out. If Riot really and truly insists on removing the silence, at least make the slow longer so he can back off/have a small window for some sort of escape, and add a tiny channel-interruption to it, to stop things like Katarina's ult.

Random Task3 votes

If you haven't noticed their silent effort to get rid of point and click silences. First Kass then Leblanc, now talon and Soraka (soraka's is now a skill shot). It was on their agenda, clearly, so I doubt they really considered nerfing it.

Nhifu2 votes

I really wish they would buff talon's W (aoe)

Just so he can clear waves when they enemy team blobs up.

This would put talon on the level of Kha'zix

Camaro56904 votes

His W doesnt need a damage buff, maybe a lower mana cost at early levels though. That way he might be able to use his skills outside of a combo. As a Talon you have to conserve mana 100 percent till you are ready to pull off a combo. You cant harass with W because of its massive mana cost at low levels.

PaperMache71 votes

Talon was one of the strongest in the game, what's why he didn't receive compensation.

Nickolias1232 votes

I'm not sure what you mean by "one of the strongest in the game". Fizz, Zed, Kat, Alkali, Ahri, and Yasou do more damage, have far more mobility, and are much stronger in team fights.

PaperMache71 votes

He has 56.5 win rate (being an hair from being number one) at diamond with a high pick rate. That's pretty ridiculous.

Worgslarg2 votes

And it is too soon after the patch to see his numbers fall as they will most likely.

PaperMache71 votes

You're saying that as if the goal of the nerf wasn't to make his numbers fall...

Worgslarg3 votes

It wasnt. The goal of the nerf was to increase his counterplay, just riot didn't give him a compensatory buff, so his numbers will fall.

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