Karma Changes I Would Like to See

Frosted Tips·Aug 1, 2018·2 votes·3,170 views

Karma before her Rework was very unique but league at the time was not ready for her and that is why she got a rework, but now she has become a very bland and has been at this very weak state for awhile now. I think it is the perfect time to look at her kit for minor mechanical changes.

Passive - Stay the same

Q - Stay the same

W - remove the current Mantra W. Add ally cast which would give MS to Karma and her Ally plus damage over time to any enemy touching the tether. Enemy cast now slows a little bit. Mantra W on ally more MS and Small initial heal for both Karma and ally with larger heal for both at the end if still tethered. Mantra W on enemy gives Karma small resistance buff for the duration and larger slow and longer root if still connected at the end.

E - Remove MS because it was moved to W and make the shield stronger. Plus add the aoe Mantra nuke it used to have.

R - Stay the same.

I would like to hear other's thoughts on my suggestions and what they think.

39 Comments

SilverSquidAug 1, 20184 votes

First of all: Karma IS getting a small gameplay update in a couple of weeks. RiotNeuroCat is working on it as we speak. No specifics yet tho.

Second: I commend you for trying to make W a more interesting spell. I do like borrowing from old Karma in that regard, but your version is - as many of my iterations - overloaded as fuck. I know it's a hard spell to work on, I am just telling you why I keep failing on that particular spell myself. Also a simple shield with no added benefits will NOT be going to be included in League anymore. They are binary stat sticks and not up to today's design standards. It basically needs something. Some umpf. Something special. Something that lets it be useful even if behind. Fully agree on the shieldbomb btw.

If you wanna know my indepth thoughts on Karma and what she should get, you can see a full post HERE Also if you are interested in our first contact with the person working on Karma, you can see it HERE If you wanna see me go overboard in terms of design, you can take a look at my proudest work so far, the Twin Dragon Rework

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

I personally believe a basic shield with the mantra change to also become a nuke would be unique but that is just how I feel sense I think shields having a bunch of extras on them is what caused a lot of issues in this game. And yeah I probably overloaded her w and honestly taking off the damage from people touching the tether is what I would take away or the heal.

I do like most of your suggestions interesting to see what others think.

SilverSquidAug 1, 20183 votes

I personally believe a basic shield with the mantra change to also become a nuke would be unique but that is just how I feel

It's necessary for the base spells to be good on their own. Mantra may not be used as an excuse for a lack of depth there. I mean, simply giving her E two charges would be unique. An E that would threaten a mini nuke (that scales with shieldvalue) upon consumption would also be unique and interesting. Bonus points if it decays over a short period of time in addition to that, so it has a visual "timer" of sorts.

I think shields having a bunch of extras on them is what caused a lot of issues in this game

What do you have in mind here? I am not aware of any.

I do like most of your suggestions interesting to see what others think.

Thank you. I too enjoy seeing that!

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

I believe Karma's current shield is unhealthy causi g them to give it low shielding value. A good sized shield plus a MS buff is a pretty strong combo so that is why imo it us super unhealthy unless they nerf the numbers to be unsatisfying. And Ardent broke the game for a bit because shields plus other stats were making it incredibly difficult to find a healthy spot for the item and the champions. Those are just my thoughts and personally I think the same sorta thing happened to Janna with her AD buff from her shield because now her shield doesn't feel strong but the rest of her kit is also ridiculous, but that's a whole other thing.

SilverSquidAug 2, 20181 votes

I wouldn't call that "unhealthy", but rather "awkward to balance".

But I think an ability that can block some damage and add some utility is better, than one that either blocks enough damage or doesn't. It feels binary to me.

The general problem you were adressing stems from Ardent, tbh, not from the enchanters' shields themselves.

Frosted TipsAug 2, 20181 votes

I think ardent made us notice it more but the same thing can be seen without it. But now that it is in the game any standard shield can give some good buffs along with it and that is another reason I think a straight shield would be fine.

SilverSquidAug 2, 20181 votes

Well, just for argument's sake, let's pretend Karma's shield&MS is unhealthy and you want Ardent to stay the way it is.... how is removing Karma's MS from the shield help in any way? The problem would still be around for Janna, Lulu,... Or do you want everyone to just have the same bland shield?

Frosted TipsAug 2, 20181 votes

Ok I will go with it (I just think Riot really wants ardent this way so that's why my argument is based around ardent staying like this)

First delete Janna. So many problems solved. But I would be fine with a full rework at the very least.

Lulu shield is probably fine only a tiny damage buff.

Ivern only slow closest target.

Sion's is fine because it is only damage and not that much.

Karma losing the MS would help allow her to have a more potent shield value that could help protect the individual from more damage and allow her W to have more proactive decisions making.

Lastly like Lulu alot of the champions with shield effects are alot less impactful than Karma's, Janna's, and Ivern's I maybe forgetting some others, but if you want anyone else's in particular that I deem as too strong of a combo with a shield let me know.

SilverSquidAug 2, 20181 votes

First delete Janna. So many problems solved. But I would be fine with a full rework at the very least.

Woooooohoooow, dude. What the hell?

Just to keep an item that is slightly hard to balance you wanna delete a champion, remove parts of champions' kits, make Karma's shields binary (close to unbreakable?), removing flavour and cohesion from multiple champions.... I swear to the unholy Godking Darius, if this went live and people found out who caused this, they would find your house and burn it down. I know Riot isn't perfect when it comes to balance, but this is straight up reckless.

See look, I still don't get why you think having additional effects per champion on shields would be a bad thing. You could start arguing similar things for damage abilities, since they also always have additional stuff packed onto them. Or CC. Or any buffs. Forcing you to reduce every single spell in this game to one core value.... so everyone has like a damage spell or AA reset, a shield or heal and a dash or MS buff, or any combination of similar things.

And I could tell you by all I have learnt about gamedesing in the past few years.... that game wouldn't be fun to play... It's like a regression of depth, flavour and mechanics.

I say no. Karma's E is fine, Ardent is wonky, but allright, and I might hate some champs in League, but I wouldn't want to delete a single one of them. They all deserve love and care be put into them. You should know yourself how ruthless deleting a champion and replacing it with a new champion with the same name feels like. We just had this with Aatrox and it was a disaster. Again. It doesn't work, it just causes problem and it shows a lack of craftsmanship, in my opinion. New Aatrox is great imo, but as a rework, he sucked donkey butt.

Frosted TipsAug 2, 20181 votes

Janna to start:

She has single handedly destroyed solo q for mid Plat to mid Diamond. So many people played her to get there and have no clue what they are doing. She was such a big crutch because of how easy she is to play and how effective she is at shutting down engage. Now hear me out in organized play she is fine because people work together with quick reactions to help each other by forcing abilities out of champions like Janna so that an engage from a different champion can land, but that doesn't work in solo q. In my experience if I check a players ranked stats because I'm confused to how they are ranked up in that elo at least 50% of the time they are a Janna main that didn't get/pick Janna.
She has had 4+straight years of being a good pick. Items, nerfs, metas, etc. none of it matters to her because her kit is too strong.
Delete maybe too much but 100% she needs at least to of her abilities completely redesigned.
I hate her

Shields with extra stuff:

Certain combos are too strong for this game. A few off the top of my head shield + large MS (Karma), shield + high value aoe slow (Ivern), shield + large damage buff (Janna). Some that I believe to be fine shield + small damage buff (Lulu), shield + small resistance buff (Orianna).

Ardent

IMO awful item causes too many issues and have to be cautious of how it will effect each enchanter because every aspect of ardent helps each enchanter differently. So this means anytime they change the enchaters they have to be worried about ardent abuse more so than the average item champion interaction.

SilverSquidAug 2, 20181 votes

Many champions are easy to play and strong. Leona falls in this category, but for engage, alistar for disengage (he has even received buffs to be played even more easily), Soraka for heals, Malph tank, etc... The only problematic part about Janna was, that she shut down play, and that's boring. There is nothing inherently wrong with a champion being easy and being good.
What's wrong with a champion being good for a long time? Are you in favour of nerfing champions every now and then to switch up the meta?
I can get behind that.
Personal feelings are a bad basis for game design desisions.

Certain combos are too strong for this game.

I would really, really like you to tell me why you think those are inherently problematic. Because if I now reply "I do not find them too strong", that's basically the end of this argument. Personally I think spreading the value of certain spells over different values gives them a certain kind of consistency and creativity, because if Karma is behind and her shield isn't good, at least her MS buff is useful, while - when ahead - the shield values don't get overbearing as easily, while the MS buff stays the same. Also you have to think about when the MS is more important and you can ignore the shield value and vice-versa.

IMO awful item causes too many issues and have to be cautious of how it will effect each enchanter because every aspect of ardent helps each enchanter differently.

Yeah, that's.... problematic. But then again, all items are somewhat differently useful on different champions. Trinity, for example. Black Cleaver. Spirit Visage. It makes the game harder to balance, but also more interesting on the long run. The balance between not breaking the game and keeping it engaging is tricky, but not impossible, imo.

HochelagaAug 1, 20183 votes

You're just suggesting the old Karma back. This won't work for Riot

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

I'm suggesting we bring some stuff from old karma back and keep the stuff from new karma that works and Riot has reverted Rengar, Leblanc, and Kog'Maw. I don't want her ult passive or q and I'm ok with only one charge of mantra unlike before

IxtaliKingAug 1, 20182 votes

I agree with adding back her shield bomb and giving W an ally function, but not with moving the MS boost from E back to W. Moving her MS boost to E was one of the most logical and successful aspects of her rework, so reverting it wouldn't be ideal.

As for the RW ally cast healing Karma and her ally together, I see no reason why that couldn't work - but I'd imagine her power budget could be optimized better with only a single heal per cast, for example:

Enemy cast - Damage/root + self-heal.
Ally cast - [Insert new ally base W effect] + ally-heal.

That way her decision-making with W/RW is more distinct and it's balance can be kept in check by it's trade-offs.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

{quoted} Moving her MS boost to E was one of the most logical and successful aspects of her rework, so reverting it wouldn't be ideal.

I very much disagree I believe this takes way too much of her power away from her W and from the shield aspect of her E.

IxtaliKingAug 1, 20182 votes

Except it didn't take any power away from W at all, W gained power in her rework (damage and CC). The only bummer there was losing the tether clothesline mechanic, but other than that it was an improvement in terms of usability.

Also, the bonus shield of RE is the reason why power has been taken from E, not the MS. Moving it back to W would significantly change the feel of Karma, and not in a good way since it would remove a lot of her agency.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

I didnt say it lost power in the Rework. It was not good before the Rework and same with after. That is why I suggested a hybrid of the two with a little more depth.

Also, the bonus shield of RE is the reason why power has been taken from E, not the MS.

That makes no sense. If that were the case just nerf the RE.

IxtaliKingAug 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I didnt say it lost power in the Rework. It was not good before the Rework and same with after. That is why I suggested a hybrid of the two with a little more depth.

I was responding to this:

{quoted}

I very much disagree I believe this takes way too much of her power away from her W and from the shield aspect of her E.

The part where you said 'this' (referring to the MS) takes power from her W. Creating a hybrid of the the two iterations is a laudable goal, but it's tricky. Hopefully Neurocat does this in some way in her rework.

That makes no sense. If that were the case just nerf the RE.

They did, eventually, but it's important to note that the nerf to her base E came after her RE was overbuffed in patch 6.6. The point is, it was never about the MS boost - it was about the reliability of her shielding.

Frosted TipsAug 2, 20181 votes

They did, eventually, but it's important to note that the nerf to her base E came after her RE was overbuffed in patch 6.6. The point is, it was never about the MS boost - it was about the reliability of shielding.

I don't believe you are correct it was a best a hybrid of the two. You had an ability that acted as item 2065 and item 3190 which was insane. MS is super underrated look at Sivir who was op because of her Ult for a bit and people would run Sivir Karma because you could chase down any team with that combo.

IxtaliKingAug 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I don't believe you are correct it was a best a hybrid of the two. You had an ability that acted as and which was insane. MS is super underrated look at Sivir who was op because of her Ult for a bit and people would run Sivir Karma because you could chase down any team with that combo.

Riot from 6.15 patch notes:

Karma’s issue is simple - she’s doing the right things, but she’s just doing them a little too well. Namely, Inspire (and its Mantra’d form, Defiance) are providing too much safety and disengage from the get-go. Taking a swing at their potency should keep the Enlightened One’s supportive qualities from being too overbearing.

SHIELD AMOUNT : [80/110/140/170/200] ⇒ 70/100/130/160/190

Her MS was only ever called into question with Defiance (RE) because it gave 60% from level 1 to her whole team.

BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED : [60% at all ranks] ⇒ 40/45/50/55/60% (scaling with rank in E - Inspire)

MS was never a problem for E. Even for RE, if they hadn't buffed the shield previously they never would have changed it's MS to scale with Es. The fact that it functioned like item 2065 and item 3190 only mattered because Riot hiked up her shield values in 6.6, the spell was practically trash before that even with 60% AoE MS from level 1.

For a little more context here's what Riot said in 7.1 when they nerfed her RE shield:

For almost a year, Karma’s enjoyed a slow build-up into becoming the go-to generalist support among League’s top players. This stems from a change made all the way back in 6.6, where we aimed to give her scaling a little more ‘oomph’ so Karma could feel appropriately rewarded for a strong performance. We’re happy with her scaling, but amping up Karma’s base shield in the very same patch led to a massive performance bump that few of her peers could step to. In light of her dominant laning strengths, we’re reverting Karma’s base shield to its previous effectiveness while keeping her growth throughout the game intact.

BONUS SHIELD : [30/100/170/240] ⇒ 30/90/150/210

Then her shield was preemptively gutted for item 3174 buffs. Riot from 7.12 patch notes:

Karma is already pretty strong, and with the incoming changes to Athene’s Unholy Grail (see below), we only foresee her getting stronger. As a result, we’re pre-emptively taking some power out of Inspire’s ability to nullify so much damage.

INSPIRE SHIELD : [70/100/130/160/190] ⇒ 70/95/120/145/170 DEFIANCE SHIELD ON SECONDARY TARGETS : [50%] ⇒ 30% primary target’s shield

Also, let's not forget that Sivir's MS boost lasts a lot longer than Karma's and so does item 2065 .

Frosted TipsAug 2, 20181 votes

Using Riots reasoning doesn't mean you are right IMO Riot nerfed it the wrong way. And yes it's shorter duration but it is still very strong.

IxtaliKingAug 2, 20182 votes

On the contrary, we're discussing the reason why her shield was nerfed and Riot has given answers to that question - so it does mean I'm right.

Your opinion is that Riot nerfed it the wrong way, which I agree with, but we don't work at Riot so it doesn't matter.

Frosted TipsAug 2, 20181 votes

This is one of the dumbest things I have read in a long time. Thanks for reminding me how stupid some people are out there.

IxtaliKingAug 2, 20182 votes

I thought the same of your comments, bye.

IllabetheAug 1, 20181 votes

Hell no.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

So do you have a reason why I would love to discuss?

IllabetheAug 1, 20182 votes

Her current W is perfect because it's useable in solo situations. Without being able to heal on her solo situations, she becomes an entirely different champion, and becomes extremely weak versus every trade for which she is currently strong.

It also prevents her from jungling, bossing.

Furthermore, you're asking to make her move speed criterion on being able to leash an ally. That again is imaging an entirely different champion. Karma cannot exist without self effective speed boosts.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

Her current W is far from perfect. It is definitely the most unsatisfying part of her kit. It also has been nerfed not because it was good on standard Karma builds, but because it made tank Karma unkillable. Mine might not be the best solo but it can still be used in a 1v1.

IllabetheAug 1, 20181 votes

If it's unsatisfactory, you are not a good Karma player.

It's never been directly nerfed, btw. The only thing that has been "nerfed" is how it interacts with runes, armor, etc. The AMOUNT, over time, has actually been buffed, because item 3065 has been buffed.

Yours is not a 1v1 W. It removes the ability to heal in the jungle, removes the ability to heal at drakes, and does absolutely nothing to stop hits from champs like Zed Yasuo MasterYi etc.

I have over 6 million mastery on Karma. What do I know?

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

It did get nerfs but I was wrong in what exactly got nerfed it got its bonus damage taken away.

IllabetheAug 1, 20181 votes

W has never been nerfed. In fact the 4 times it was touched were all buffs.

V7.1 Focused Resolve Focused Resolve / Renewal Renewal Number of damage ticks reduced to 2 from 3. Base damage per tick increased to 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 from 20 / 36.7 / 53.3 / 70 / 86.7 Damage per tick AP scaling increased to 45% AP + 30% AP. Total damage unchanged.

In other words, they reduced her damage to 2 ticks for the same damage...... improving reliability.

V6.2 Focused Resolve Focused Resolve Mana cost reduced to 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 from 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90.

Lower Mana cost.

V5.17 Focused Resolve Focused Resolve Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds at all ranks from 16 / 15 / 14 / 13 / 12.

Lower Cooldown

V5.10 Focused Resolve NEW EFFECT: Can target monsters. AP ratio increased to 90% AP from 60% AP.

Renewal Renewal NEW EFFECT: Increases Focused Resolve Focused Resolve's root duration by 0.5 seconds.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

Skipped apart of that last one.

New Effect: Increases Focused Resolve.png Focused Resolve's root duration by 0.5 seconds. Removed: 75 / 150 / 225 / 300 + 60% AP bonus damage

IxtaliKingAug 1, 20182 votes

Lol that 7.1 change wasn't a buff, it was a nerf to it's passive interaction and it was aimed at Tank Karma (which was gaining popularity at the time).

The 5.10 change was a buff for W and a hard nerf for RW. Overall those changes were a nerf.

Other than that I agree with you, it's not a bad ability - it's just bland and lacks depth, which hopefully it will get in her upcoming rework.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

What I'm saying is regular non Mantra W is a mediocre ability, but Mantra W is great. Both feel very unsatisfying though they are bland and the heal is great but that doesn't make the ability satisfying.

SilverSquidAug 1, 20181 votes

Her current W is far from perfect. It is definitely the most unsatisfying part of her kit.

Completely agree here. It's such a problematic spell it's the most likely spell to get changed in her upcoming update.

It also has been nerfed not because it was good on standard Karma builds, but because it made tank Karma unkillable.

What are you... it has never been nerfed? Unless you classify it only being able to hit twice getting "nerfed" but that's more about her passive, which means it got 1 proc less. That was an overall nerf to her mantra availability tho.

Frosted TipsAug 1, 20181 votes

Yeah my b it was a damage nerf with a buff attached to it I must have been mistaken.

SilverSquidAug 2, 20181 votes

Yeah, I saw that in another comment of yours. You were talking about the 5.10 changes, and while that technically wasn't a nerf, but a "powershift", I think the ability got worse as a whole, so I kind of agree.

DevinatiolAug 3, 20181 votes

Im no karma Main, and I probably dont have a good idea of what would be interesting, fun, or balanced on her but I was thinking of some potential changes.

Q reduce or remove the splash damage, but all Q's now have the delayed AoE burst like Mantra Q that damage and slow Mantra Q now changes from a damaging projectile that explodes on contact with enemies, to a Healing projectile that detonates on contact with allied Champions with the same delayed AoE effect for further healing. (kinda like how the old Fans used to heal with the mantra) The current Q is probably my favourite part of the new Karma, but it can be super oppressive in lane with the AoE and guaranteed Mantra Q hit, and I like the Idea that the Mantras used to make support abilities damage abilities and damage abilities support abilities.

I really did like the old Karma W, but if we brought back a version of it perhaps make it a two part cast. Allow it to only be cast on allies, (increase the the width of it) and give both of you a speed buff (maybe make it so it makes sure both of you have the same movement speed, so if they have more ms you get significantly more??? probably not, that would be busted... Karma leashing her Yi or Quinn and just flying across the map with them XD), after a delay you may cast it again, rooting all enemies in the line and breaking the tether, the mantra version could give both Karma and her Ally a damage buff and turn the root into a stun that lasts longer

As for the shield, I find it to be one of the most static abilities in the game, it could be more interesting... Perhaps she places a spirit orb on the battle field... she can not move too far away from it or it will time out. The orb can not be attacked but it does interact with her skills. It can be placed on allies for a shield (similar to the current shield without movement speed) or maybe the first ally to walk over it gains a shield, she can also use her W tether on it allowing her to root or stun enemies without an ally present, and when she hits a Q on it it will cause the AoE to happen immediately and in a larger radius (be it an AoE Heal or and AoE damage) The Mantra version would shield and speed up all allies immediately around the spirit orb when cast.

idk, this is all silly ideas and probably just a different champion... but oh well its fun :)