PD probably needs to be reworked or removed

Salron·Aug 31, 2016·110 votes·12,636 views

Automatically winning duels against anyone on relatively equal ground because of a 12% damage reduction shouldn't be a thing All the other zeal items have some cool unique effect with a specialized purpose. PD is just "I bought it so I now autowin duels that were otherwise reasonably close"

Not to mention that the damage reduction lasts for a whopping 10 seconds At the very least it should be changed to scale with level so that someone like who rushes it as a first item half the time doesn't walk into lane with it at level 11 and effectively keep a 12% damage reduction on you until your next back. Maybe something like 5-10 seconds from levels 1-18 would work better if Riot is intent on keeping this iteration of it in the game

273 Comments

Sona x RubickAug 31, 201644 votes

it's more the stats that are a problem lmfao

item 3046 costs less than firecanon and gives 15% more AS, a good dueling passive and tons of ms in fight. dueling won't make you win the game, but winning a fight due to the stats will.

SalronAug 31, 20169 votes

RFC also gives extra damage and a guaranteed first hit on an enemy of equal range

RFC also gives the least AS out of all the zeal items, a better comparison would probably be between Shiv and PD, where there is a 10% AS difference.

And bringing up the cost is meaningless when PD is only 50g cheaper than the rest of the Zeal items

Sona x RubickAug 31, 20164 votes

and? even if pd is only 50g cheaper, for what it does and gives this is broken.

nerf the stats, or increase the cost. An item giving damage reduction shouldn't give 45% AS 30% crit and 12% ms, especially when graves can get pd+dd so quickly and be unkillable while killing everyone.

Legacy HydralphaAug 31, 20169 votes

Phantom Dancer and Death's Dance on Graves?

Know what I'm getting now. :)

9001TeemosAug 31, 201616 votes

You're getting what everyone's been building on him for months?

Way to reinvent the meta, champ.

MonkeyMadnessAug 31, 201610 votes

Correction: any item that synergizes with the fervor keystone is a problem.

doombotMECHAAug 31, 201613 votes

sing it with me:

DAMAGE CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

Tobias BracknerAug 31, 201626 votes

Automatically winning duels against anyone on relatively equal ground because of a 12% damage reduction shouldn't be a thing

Why not? The other items have unique utility to bring to teamfights and skirmishes. This one is for dueling (and actually a pretty sweet defensive item against burst)

Serika ZeroAug 31, 20165 votes

while I agree that this item was basically made for dueling. Fiora, Jax, Irelia and other actual duelists ain't buying it. ** Don't you think something is wrong when a dueling item is not actually being bought by duelists?** Actually, the only exception to this rule is Yasou who is a duelist (fighter) and buys it. But that's only his due to his x2 crit rate passive.

Fiora, Jax, Irelia, Trundle, Tryndramare, Lee Sin, Yi, Vi. All AD fighters. Not getting it.

Pika FoxAug 31, 201612 votes

Except youre pigeonholing duelists.

Vayne buys it. Yasuo buys it. Yi buys it at times. Trynd as well.

Icy SpectreAug 31, 20163 votes

Trynd benefits more from second IE than PD...

KeìronAug 31, 201611 votes

mmh no that's false

KeìronAug 31, 20165 votes

The "duelists" class you talk about, is in truth the "skirmishers" subclass of slayers. The skirmishers usually go for the hydra-black cleaver-sustain items build or the crit build. There's a list of skirmishers and who builds PD: Fiora BC/hydra build Gangplank BUILDS PD Kled BC/hydra build Master yi BUILDS PD Riven BC/hydra build Tryndamere BUILDS PD EVENTUALLY Yasuo BUILDS PD Graves BUILDS PD Vayne BUILDS PD You can see that most duelists, or skirmishers, build phantom dancer, and the item isn't bought at all by any other class.

RiotRiot ScruffySep 1, 201617 votes

This is the basic model. Each AS/Crit item brovides the basic stats that ADCs need and something unique.

PD - Dueling power RFC - Range/Poke Shiv - Burst/AOE clear Hurricane - Sustained AOE autos

If the stats or bonuses aren't properly tuned though, one or more of these can become dominant. I think the balance and systems teams are always evaluating and looking at usage stats, pro usage, etc to keep them balanced.

(personally I have no info on if PD is getting adjusted, I'll check)

redfeenixSep 1, 20162 votes

Yo whats the difference between a lead designer and a regular designer? Does this mean you have the final call for all design decisions?

Does that mean YOU are the scapegoat we've been searching for when champ updates dont turn out so hot?

Just kidding, have a nice day =)

And dont worry too much if you guys fk up warwick, theres always Greymane in Heroes who is the epitome of the bestial hunter/assassin/diver/chaser/executioner. God bless blizzard's champion creativity and cohesive/satisfying skill sets. [slayer-jinx-catface]

RiotRiot ScruffySep 1, 20169 votes

It means I manage other designers/their projects. So Anything Champ related that you wanna talk about, feel free to hit me up. ><

It's a bit of everything, having an interest in many projects at once is something I personally enjoy.

EDIT: Warwick is gonna be gud. It's got that CertainlyT visceral flavor on it.

Kingdom CornSep 1, 20169 votes

If certainlyT works on something you know how it will turn out....

Hinagiku33Sep 1, 201616 votes

So we can look forward to several months of Warwick nerfs, right?

StephenizgodSep 1, 20164 votes

"It's got that CertainlyT visceral flavor on it"

or in other words, it will be incredibly broken and impossible to balance or remain in a healthy state for longer than one patch.

At least it will be interesting, fun, and new! Hopefully, that thought will keep me from tearing my hair out when I am obliterated by an insanely complex and broken mechanic.

JSTIN8Sep 1, 20167 votes

RiotScruffy it has been scientifically proven that there is no way to make us worry more about a champ rework than tell us that CertainlyT is working on it. I love WW, and I don't want him to be filled to the gills with tools like yasuo is.

DeathBurstSep 1, 20163 votes

Problem here is mostly that PD is "abused" (according to OP) by Skirmishers/Divers more than by Marksfolks...

RiotRiot ScruffySep 1, 20164 votes

This isn't a totally unreasonable point. We designed the crit/as items to create compelling choices for Marksmen specifically.

So, in some fighter cases there is a 'solved' item (often pd) but it's no worse now than it was before when it was always shiv. It means we have future work to do still.

AdaloreSep 1, 20165 votes

I feel for marksmen it is fairly reasonable and it might just be cases where Yasuo builds it first is more of a Champion kit problem than an item problem.

ZedexSep 1, 20163 votes

Thank you for posting this so players will actually believe me in game when I tell them what the crit items are made for now.

"No bro just build PD"

Oakleaf RangerSep 1, 20161 votes

Honestly there just not many situations where going phantom dancer is not ideal unless one of the other zeal items synergies better with the champion and even then you still probably want to get it at some point if your building more Crit. Rapid fire cannon is the weakest of the bunch to me considering its stats and effect being it increases auto range for one auto. That's pretty lackluster compared to the rest. I think the concept is good but its current form means it busted or weak with too few options to tuning it to be balanced

AtanchanSep 1, 20163 votes

Maybe RFC needs to have its damage amp increased vs. structures, or have its empowered attack put a debuff on structures that shreds resistances or otherwise somehow increases user's ability to take it down for a short while after ( cause the range increase to persist vs. that structure for the duration? ). Make it really focused on the sieging role while still providing some clear, obvious power in poking enemies.

ZephyrDrakeAug 31, 201619 votes

item 3046 has always had higher stats than item 3087 and item 3094 and it has always had that damage reduction ever since it was reworked a little while a ago. The item is supposed to be good in 1v1s that's it's niche! if you are being killed 1v1 by someone who has it then guess what? it's doing it's job! maybe you shouldn't just go all in by yourself against someone who has it.

Seriously, why is it that the instant an item is finally being used everyone just goes "OP! REWORK OR NERF!"? it's getting tiring and boring. item 3046 is in a nice spot and it fills it's niche rather nicely. If the other item 3086 items aren't up to par with it then it's because they have been nerfed MULTIPLE times and is a sign that maybe they are the ones who should be looked at and not an item that no one cared at all up until recently.

ProfDrDeathAug 31, 20168 votes

While I generally agree with you, I honestly think that item 3046 could stand a minimal nerf, in the regard that its price could be increased by 50 gold to match the other Zeal items.

ReikkenAug 31, 201615 votes

dueling is a pretty niche thing in this game since it's a 5v5

TheorcheroAug 31, 201613 votes

Tbh the damage reduction and MS are fucking retarded. The item should have a cooldown if you want these stats.

It's like constant effect healing items in morrowind, horribly fucking broken.

InTheoryAug 31, 201612 votes

[deleted]

TerchioAug 31, 20165 votes

True, but you don't see tanks buying these items, because even at 12%, that's low. I mean, even GA, assuming you already have 200 Armor/MR, gives a 17% damage reduction, and that's against all enemies. An early game squishy at 50 Armor / 50 MR that gets a item 1029 item 1033 on top will get 10% physical damage reduction and 16.6% magic damage reduction to all enemies for 750g. We're talking about this much effectiveness on a single-target basis being OP?

LadyRenlyAug 31, 201610 votes

for a squishy adc, 12% damage reduction of 5000 incoming damage to your 300 health doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

(exaggeration of course...)

Sona x RubickAug 31, 201658 votes

Graves

Bladerunner7777Aug 31, 20169 votes

Graves isn't an adc anymore

Edit: only 10 downvotes? Classic naive boards

Unstoppable MonkAug 31, 201634 votes

{quoted}

Graves isn't an adc anymore

Graves does whatever he wants because he's busted like that.

What Is SmiteAug 31, 201632 votes

He lost his Cigar, let the man have his Damage Reduction

MiraweaveAug 31, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RlEGH3xw,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-31T06:19:50.956+0000)

He lost his Cigar, let the man have his Damage Reduction

How about we delete him instead?

ElikainAug 31, 201612 votes

No. No champion will ever be deleted.

Vistha KaiAug 31, 201610 votes

One word: Karma.

ElikainAug 31, 20161 votes

Karma has retained her entire kit from her previous iteration. Ult that boosts all other abilities, Link, Shield and nuke Q. Some mechanics were gone obviously but that doesn't correspond to a deleted champion. She still plays in her intended roles (mage/supp) as she did previously.

Vistha KaiAug 31, 20165 votes

If that's how you define "retained the entire kit" then I can find multiple champions who have exactly same kits.

All of her abilities, Mantra included, are completely different in their execution, her lore is completely different and her look is completely different.

The only common points she has with the old Karma is her name, Mantra's name and the fact she's an Ionian Elder.

Jhin UItd JFKAug 31, 201610 votes

Yasuo and Graves are probably the only ones "abusing" it even if you could call it that.

I think the item is in a perfectly good spot since it fills a niche (anti burst and better dueling potential) in sacrifice of utility from RFC or the raw AoE from Shiv.

I just think this is something the Boards are claiming OP just so they can form a new circlejerk now that Yas is getting nerfed.

Supreme Senpai69Aug 31, 20164 votes

It's something that looks OP on paper but isn't really OP in-game. So people that don't use the item complain about it because they honestly just don't know, probably.

Little PotatoAug 31, 201610 votes

Honestly i don't agree with offensive items getting all these defensive passives. An assassin or burst mage should be able to kill the adc and rather quickly offensive items should be just that offensive. item 3046 already gives better raw stats compared to the other zeal items and all zeal items give movement speed to help kite it really does not need a built in defensive mechanic. if you defensive stats you should have to build defensive items the same rule should apply to item 3156 and item 3812 dont even get me started on when a certain someone builds all 3 of them Graves

chipndip1Aug 31, 20168 votes

Here's the thing:

item 3085 : Mainly for team fighting with consistent dps on multiple enemy champs

item 3087 : Mainly for wave clearing with bonus damage against minions

item 3094 : Mainly for sieging with its application against turrets and bonus range when charged

item 3046 : Mainly for 1v1 dueling since it decreases the damage from the guy that you last hit

Each Zeal item has its niche carved out pretty well for a variety of different possible uses. I wouldn't screw over PD for being the duelist one because some marksmen might want to duel. It's not like the rift is filled with duels all over the joint anyway.

Baron PerenoldeAug 31, 20167 votes

It gives too much for its cost, plain and simple. Reduce the attack speed and bump the cost up by 50g or something.

The LovelessAug 31, 20167 votes

People weren't buying PD when they introduced RFC, and even before then when Shiv was cooler to have. Riot wanted to give a legitimate reason for ADs to prioritize it over the other zeal items. Just so happens that Yasuo is strong as sht with it.

Vik4prezAug 31, 20163 votes

How does item 3046 work with Urgot ? Does it stack additively or multiplicatively? Does he become an unstoppable splitpushing machine with it, and if so, why isn't it more popular?