So with the new Black Cleaver rework, which champions will opt for it?

Absolute0Chaos·Apr 15, 2015·5 votes·1,502 views

And what items would those champions replace?

Also, what champions will no longer use it?

As a Yi, Tryn, and Yasuo user, I am not sure if I should replace my Last Whisper for it.

25 Comments

Buttigieg 2020Apr 15, 20154 votes

Mostly tanks bruisers will use it. (Ie Darius Garen Urgot JarvanIV )

Heckin SupportApr 15, 20153 votes

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Mostly tanks bruisers will use it. (Ie )

No running from Pantheon

RenailleApr 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

As a Yi, Tryn, and Yasuo user, I am not sure if I should replace my Last Whisper for it.

Situationally for Yi and Tryn, never for yasuo

HailFire DragonApr 15, 20151 votes

bruisers would like it. garen, aatrox, xin would be good with it i think maybe

Hard4HamstersApr 15, 20151 votes

Ad fighters for the most part. Vi, Jarvan, Lee Sin, Darius etc. Any fighter that starts the game with one offensive item and then ends up going full tank for the most part after that. It will be situational for most of these champs, but it let's them grab another offensive item without feeling like they can't stay relevant in teamfights. It gives a decent amount of Health so it is going to be an optional second offensive item for those fighters who want a bruiser set up that lets them fight tanks (they would sacrifice a defensive item for this or they would use it as their main offensive item). Also, more offensive bruisers such as Urgot (Pantheon also) will love this item. It gives him more sticking power to hit his acid hunters and more armor shred to take out front lines. (Bonus for Urgot = extra CDR).

An example of a champion build that this item will be a part of:

JarvanIV : item 3707 (jung) item 3071 item 3143 item 3190 item 3075

or for a laner Darius : item 3071 item 3068 item 3143 item 3102 item 3083

As a side note: I don't really play either of these champions.... I'm kinda guestimating their builds based on what I've seen. I do know that Darius loves the Rage passive (plus he has passive armor pen), and Jarvan benefits a lot from the armor shred. These are just example builds and are not optimal for all situations. For example, if Darius was facing a magic damage opponent, Hexdrinker would be a great starting item. Phage into CLeaver would still be an option later. Hope you get an idea of what the item was made for. It's to help fighters deal with tanks in the late game when tanks have a lot or armor. Good luck.

TTUPhoenixApr 16, 20151 votes

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Ad fighters for the most part. Vi, Jarvan, Lee Sin, Darius etc. Any fighter that starts the game with one offensive item and then ends up going full tank for the most part after that. It will be situational for most of these champs, but it let's them grab another offensive item without feeling like they can't stay relevant in teamfights. It gives a decent amount of Health so it is going to be an optional second offensive item for those fighters who want a bruiser set up that lets them fight tanks (they would sacrifice a defensive item for this or they would use it as their main offensive item). Also, more offensive bruisers such as Urgot (Pantheon also) will love this item. It gives him more sticking power to hit his acid hunters and more armor shred to take out front lines. (Bonus for Urgot = extra CDR).

An example of a champion build that this item will be a part of:

: (jung)

or for a laner :

As a side note: I don't really play either of these champions.... I'm kinda guestimating their builds based on what I've seen. I do know that Darius loves the Rage passive (plus he has passive armor pen), and Jarvan benefits a lot from the armor shred. These are just example builds and are not optimal for all situations. For example, if Darius was facing a magic damage opponent, Hexdrinker would be a great starting item. Phage into CLeaver would still be an option later. Hope you get an idea of what the item was made for. It's to help fighters deal with tanks in the late game when tanks have a lot or armor. Good luck.

As someone who plays Vi and Rek'sai a fair bit, I would drop the new Cleaver like it's on fire. The fact is that for champions who benefit a lot from one or more early brutalizers, the new Cleaver seems outright worse - especially for champs, like Vi, who often build TriForce.

Hard4HamstersApr 16, 20151 votes

I do agree that some champions would rather have a Brutalizer early to help them snowball, but the new Black Cleaver will be a better choice for countering armor stacking. Brutalizer will always be a better choice for a champion looking to assassinate squishies. That being said, Triforce is also in the category for helping to pop squishier champions. What you build is based on what you are trying to do for your team. If you and your team have decided you are going to dive the carry and that is your one job, Triforce and Brutalizer will be preferred. But if you are looking to be more effective at fighting tanks and other bruisers, Black Cleaver will increase the damage that you and your team will do. And you will still be able to fight squishier champions more effectively due to the Rage passive helping you stick to kiting carries.

The one thing that I will see being a problem is that Brutalizer as a first item on many champions will be even MORE about snowballing than before. Black Cleaver as an option for your Brutalizer was good for if you wanted to build other items while you sat on Brutalizer for a fair part of the game. Only finishing it into Black Cleaver as a later game item. Now if you build Brutalizer, it is going to be Yomuu's, which is much more of an early game item than BC. It's not a bad item, but it is limiting. On the upside, they can afford to buff Yomuu's now that Brutalizer's build path is more limited.

ProfDrDeathApr 15, 20151 votes

ADC: As replacement for LW if the rest of your team is AP-focused

Kite-based non-Triforce users, especially if they have means to deal with tanks already ( )
, as he will value the CdR it gives very much and can apply stacks rapidly with Gatling Gun

AD based top laners or junglers who possess physical damage abilities or ways to apply lots of stacks quickly: Darius Garen Gnar Hecarim Irelia JarvanIV Olaf (Q speedboosts now when hitting it) Pantheon Quinn RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Sion XinZhao MonkeyKing Basically, anyone who likes one or more of the three main selling points (CdR, Rage passive, Armor Shred) very much and can make use of the others.

Meep ManApr 15, 20151 votes

Basically it will become the essential for AD Casters in my opinion with its super CDR, armor shred, and decent AD along with some health. The Phage passive is also an added bonus since most AD casters can't stick once they have used their full combo.

ItsStoutApr 15, 20151 votes

I think it will have a new home in the hearts of champs who were already building it- bruisers. Urgot is hilarious (he gets the movement speed and shred off the dot), Wukong is even better with it, Garen likes it, and it works well with Gnar, Jarvan, Pantheon, Rek'Sai, and others.

YfrappefortApr 16, 20151 votes

Garen teed success on him.

Rinky DinkyApr 16, 20151 votes

Darius and Garen are moist

FantasySniperApr 16, 20151 votes

Basically anyone who would prefer it over item 3078 for the CDR.

This may seem like it cuts off a lot of champions, but it actually leaves a lot that can still use it with item 3142 for windows of massive damage-dealing.

ErockandrollApr 16, 20151 votes

Bruiser, off tanks. The new cleaver is not focused around doing tons of damage, that why the flat pen and 10 AD was removed. However. The rage passive will help bruisers who would otherwise be kited to death.

It also helps Bruisers, tank shred. This allows them some damage against tanks who would otherwise take almost no damage, but keep in mind that it reduces the tanks armor, making them more vulnerable in general.

JedenVojakApr 16, 20151 votes

Just seems worse than Last whisper now.

Also I would never build it on Tryndamere.

ZerglingOneApr 16, 20151 votes

I see very little reason to choose Last Whisper over it if this change goes through. It assists kiting, lowers armor by only 5% less over time, gives HP, and more AD. I will almost certainly be abandoning LW if the change happens. Unless I need both of course.

grLKQ9ma0oApr 16, 20151 votes

The reason you get LW is because it doesn't take 2-3 seconds to shred. If you're playing an assassin like Talon, Kha'zix, or even a bursty ADC like Graves, you would most definitely get LW because you don't have time to shred armor. You need to get them low as fast as possible.

VenowolfApr 16, 20151 votes

So now if I took booth I cab reduce a Insane 60% of armor on a Tank

30% LW + 30% BC

This ends the Tank meta?

grLKQ9ma0oApr 16, 20151 votes

And have less damage on squishies, which basically negates the job of the assassin.

And no, it wouldn't end the tank meta at all. Armor penetration isn't really the problem with tanks right now. The problem is that they've gone back to stacking tons and tons of health, which most champions still can't do anything about.

Now, I will say that with this change going through, I will for sure go back to playing Quinn top with item 3153 item 3071 item 3035 item 3142

Tank shred with great self-peel and a great lane phase? Yes please.

NebuulApr 16, 20151 votes

Sivir

Sivir loves black cleaver. With her q and w, she very quickly applies 5 stacks to the entire enemy team. The added cdr will make her able to q and w more frequently.

item 3071 item 3031 item 3508 item 3172 item 3072 item 3035

VenowolfApr 16, 20151 votes

To be honestly the new BC its better on her than LW

Meep ManApr 16, 20151 votes

Lots, but the bigs one are...

Darius Gangplank Garen Gnar JarvanIV Jayce Khazix LeeSin Nasus Olaf Pantheon RekSai Renekton Shyvana Sion Trundle Udyr Urgot MonkeyKing Yorick

GaleWinUnleashedApr 16, 20151 votes

My tanky Wukong build should do quite nicely with the new Cleaver. It seems to me like it works best when doubling down on a champion that already has some form of Armor Shred.

VenowolfApr 16, 20151 votes

Tank Bruisers is the most common users Garen Darius Olaf Urgot JarvanIV MonkeyKing