"While there are very real skills one can develop in a hyperbolic time chamber"

Absolute0Chaos··38 votes·2,531 views
Hyperbolic Time Chamber

"we never want that to be an expectation added onto an already high barrier to entry."

First off, for those that don't know what the ROSAT is, please refer here to the above link.

Ok Rito, it's been pointed out several times that you're statement and reasoning in regards to no sandbox mode is contradictory, hypocritical, and downright makes no sense, so I won't go into that today. There was a Kotaku article published yesterday: http://kotaku.com/its-ridiculous-that-league-of-legends-isnt-getting-a-sa-1722535441

What I want to show you is that the example parody you give also works out against you.

Before the ROSAT training, Vegeta was not able to defeat Jinzouningen (Cyborg/Android) 18. And his arm was broken by her (infamous) kick.

Realizing that a Super Saiyajin is not invincible, he wanted to train. Led by Son Gokuu, he went in to the ROSAT with his son Trunks.

After coming out, he attained the 2nd Stage SSJ. This goes from him not being able to defeat 18 to easily able to defeat 2nd Stage Cell.

Noted that First Stage Cell (after absorbing humans) became quite noticeably stronger than both Jinzouningen 17 and 18. 2nd Stage Cell is a result of him absorbing the former. So there's a massive difference there, showing just how much the ROSAT training helped Vegeta.

Trunks too, he attained power almost equal (SSJ 3rd Stage) to 3rd Form Cell (Perfect or Kanzentai Cell, a result of absorbing both 17 and 18) and only lost the fight because his speed and dexterity were too low by comparison, raw power alone can't make up for that.

Pre-ROSAT, Trunks was only barely stronger than Future 17 or 18 (he could not destroy them as it'd always be a 2v1), who were weaker than the 17 and 18 in the main timeline, as noted by Trunks. When he went back to his own timeline, he very easily destroys both the Cyborgs with 2 moves, 1 each, and was even able to blast away First form Cell with an energy wave in his base form, easily clobbering and destroying him when he turned SSJ (the normal form).

Now comes Gokuu and Gohan:

Pre-Rosat, we don't really know how strong Gokuu was cuz he was in a heart coma for most of the saga, but during the training, he realizes the speed and dexterity weakness of the SSJ 2nd and 3rd stage and opt to master the SSJ form itself. An ingenius tactic, which ultimately proves fruitful as it allows Gokuu to fight at the level of 3rd Form Cell.

As for Gohan, when he entered the ROSAT, he could not transform, yet under the tutelage of his father, he attained the SSJ form, setting the record for the youngest SSJ of his time. And during the training he was able to briefly attain SSJ2 (though under the stress, he passed out and could not remember attaining the form, but his father saw it very clearly and based that to depend on Gohan to defeat Cell).

Ultimately, Gohan was the one to defeat Cell, and it was largely due to the ROSAT training.

Conclusion: Without the ROSAT, Cell would've likely ended the series.

So what's the point of this topic? Yeah, a sandbox mode won't physically make it so that 1 year in it equals 1 day in a normal game. But, their training in the ROSAT was not against their real opponent, whom were Cell and the Cyborgs. Yet they were still able to gain several levels than where they were at before they entered. Similarly, while a sandbox mode does not pit us against real players, if we train right (as proven by Future Trunks and Gokuu), we as players could attain massive results at much less time spent than if we were to play normals or bots.

So while it's not 1year=1day, it might as well be to an extent.

Thank you for reading.

17 Comments

buster kiton7 votes

On another point: sandbox mode would be purely for mechanical skill. Playing "real" games is still needed for decisionmaking which is, in my opinion, more important than mechanics.

Absolute0Chaos18 votes

That's true, but the fact that decision making is more important than mechanics does not refute the importance of mechanics itself.

Not to mention, if you don't have the mechanical skill, you can't act out the decision you made.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

It certianly is, but the secondary use is to quickly figure out interactions.

When Karthus ults with ludens, where does it proc?

The answer to that question probably took hours-days to analyze but in sandbox mode would have been a few minutes-1 hour tops.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

In any case, most people would use a sandbox mode to make Super URF or other custom game modes. Or make a huge minion wave to kill as Sivir. Or try to solo kill Baron. Or try to see how quickly you can win a game with full build. You know, fun things.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

And i want to see the video for all those things.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

There would be many videos on the interwebs.

SkippyWare2 votes

-1 nerd rage

Toa of Death2 votes

The fact that you used one of the best anime of all time to show how Riot's reference to that same anime contradicted their statement about Sandbox mode makes this so much better.

Absolute0Chaos1 votes

I thank you, kind sir.

lightdragoon881 votes

The weeaboo grammar...it hurts so much to read.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Youre absolutely wrong. Not in why you want a sandbox mode, but thinking its a false analogy. Nobody denies that the time chamber was used to get stronger. Even Riot acknowledges that.

Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan went into the time chamber to come out stronger. Going into a sandbox mode would make you better mechanically. But think of the situations - the Saiyans went in because they needed to defeat Cell and save the world. Riot doesnt want that kind of pressure on their casual players, because they think (and judging by what happened in WoW, are correct in thinking) it puts pressure on players to endure this mode to get better.

Absolute0Chaos5 votes

I absolutely love how you are so absolutely sure that I am wrong, and I absolutely love how you used the word absolutely. Name puns absolutely intended.

Here's an question that will absolutely make you question your statement, if it is a fair analogy to say that the sandbox mode will add peer pressure, then why haven't Rito removed Co-op vs Ai? Why haven't they removed the (outdated) tutorial? (by the way, it's actually a good idea)

There's already peer pressure with the bot games' existence, if their analogy was to a fair one, then bot games would have to be removed.

So ultimately, I did not think it was a "false analogy" because the analogy itself doesn't even deserve to have been put into that kind of effort in the first place. It's a contradictory analogy to begin with, in that case, it won't matter if it's true or false.

Absolutely.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

I actually didnt read your name, though the decision to say 'absolutely' might have been subconscious. But nice to know youre reading every word. Thats good. It allows for a conversation.

Would you like to explain why the analogy is contradictory? Because i honestly dont see it. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber was somewhere the Saiyans would go to train - it didnt effect the world, time basically stopped, nobody was influenced, and they sat there with themselves to get stronger. It seems that people want a sandbox mode for the same reasons - a place to work on mechanics with no outside interference, that doesnt affect anybody. The analogy works perfectly to me. Please explain the contradiction.

Now, should bot games be removed? Lets go into that. Do you remember your first couple levels? When you were forced to play bots until level 3? My impression was that the Bot games were used to loosely determine your MMR. If you were new to the game, you get paired with other new players in Blind Pick. If you are a smurf, you get paired with other smurfs.

Edit - im not sure what you mean by your last statement. True analogies are those where the two compared subjects are equivalent enough to make a connection, using one to explain the effects of the other. False analogies are when the two compared subjects differ in key components, so the comparison between the two subjects fails. I have no idea what a 'contradictory' analogy is. Could you explain that? And why it effects the truth and falsity of the analogy?

Absolute0Chaos1 votes

{quoted}

I actually didnt read your name, though the decision to say 'absolutely' might have been subconscious. But nice to know youre reading every word. Thats good. It allows for a conversation.

Eh, that's a surprise. Alright here we go.

Would you like to explain why the analogy is contradictory? Because i honestly dont see it. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber was somewhere the Saiyans would go to train - it didnt effect the world, time basically stopped, nobody was influenced, and they sat there with themselves to get stronger. It seems that people want a sandbox mode for the same reasons - a place to work on mechanics with no outside interference, that doesnt affect anybody. The analogy works perfectly to me. Please explain the contradiction.

Close enough I suppose. Won't argue there.

Edit - im not sure what you mean by your last statement. True analogies are those where the two compared subjects are equivalent enough to make a connection, using one to explain the effects of the other. False analogies are when the two compared subjects differ in key components, so the comparison between the two subjects fails. I have no idea what a 'contradictory' analogy is. Could you explain that? And why it effects the truth and falsity of the analogy?

I never said it was true or false because I didn't believe I even needed to get to that point. I'll be more clear, it was the argument that Rito gives from this analogy that was contradictory.

For the sake of the argument, I'll assume the analogy is true enough (I don't feel like analyzing it), but if the argument and reasoning that Rito led us through using the analogy is a contradiction, then it might as well have been false, because it only counter-supports Rito's stance on the matter.

Now, should bot games be removed? Lets go into that. Do you remember your first couple levels? When you were forced to play bots until level 3? My impression was that the Bot games were used to loosely determine your MMR. If you were new to the game, you get paired with other new players in Blind Pick. If you are a smurf, you get paired with other smurfs.

That's for another thread.

Bot games being removed was an example I used to show the contradiction, I'd never want bot games to be removed.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

My reason for expanding on bot games is not for whether or not they should stay, but the most plausible reason i came up with for why they are kept in-game without contradicting their analogy.

Bot games serve a purpose beyond practice. It makes no sense that they would FORCE new accounts to play at least 2 bot games to get to level 3 to qualify for blind pick, and its weird that when i first start playing blink pick on a new account, i play games with people who generally know what theyre doing. What i suppose is (and this is just me), smurfs would ruin the experience for the truly new players. By forcing everyone to play a couple bots, its like a miniplacement - you either get placed with people who obviously know how to play or people who obviously dont. If this is true (and again, i have no proof for this - just what i see), bot games serve a function besides just a Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Absolute0Chaos1 votes

Don't forget easy first wins.

KilljoyX1 votes

This post needs more upvotes. It irritates me when people use references wrong.

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