Zac has a 60% ban rate in Plat +

Rivuo··4 votes·819 views

But hes fine right

18 Comments

Dêcoy4 votes

Zac isn't the problem. Champions that were making his life miserable and making him unplayable got nerfed, so he has easier time. The reason why he has such an impact is simple - he forces you to change warding patterns. You cant ward river bush in midlane and be sure you are safe, because he may fly from your own jungle to gank you. That's all there is to it. He doesn't need a nerf, jungle meta favors him that's all.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Don't forget the popularity of many squishy and/or immobile laners at the moment.

Vel'koz, Jayce, Kennen, Miss Fortune, Jhin and Jinx are all rather vulnerable to his ganks.

LadyRenly3 votes

"zac is literally unplayable once you reach plat" or something like that.

yeah right.

OneMustFall2 votes

Ban rate is not and never will be indicative on whether a champion is balanced or not. A champion can be severely underpowered and still have a high ban rate.

See Zed and Yasou.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

OneMustFall1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, there has never been a champion with high ban rates that have ever been close to being underpowered. Zed and yasuo are strictly superior to more than half of the champions in league. If you track ban rates historically, they have correlated extremely well with champions that are overpowered or borderline overpowered. Zed is still extremely strong, people are just underrating him because he is not as overpowered as he has been at his peak.

Incorrect. Being 37th at your position in win rate and 34th in damage would make you statistically worse than half the champions in the game. He is outclassed by most assassins and he loses against most mid lane matchups. People ban Zed because his ult lacks counterplay, not because he is any way, shape or form strong.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

Incorrect. Being 37th at your position in win rate and 34th in damage would make you statistically worse than half the champions in the game. He is outclassed by most assassins and he loses against most mid lane matchups. People ban Zed because his ult lacks counterplay, not because he is any way, shape or form strong.

Well people arent banning him anymore.. hes referring to the pre-nerf zed

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

OneMustFall1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, being 37th in winrate while having a ban rate above 40% would make any champion statistically better than half of the champions in the game. Remember, high banrates always artificially deflate winrates. A champion with a 40% ban rate and a 45% winrate would have a winrate in the upper 50's if he was not banned so often.

You are comparing how strong zed is to how strong he was at his peak instead of how strong he is compared to an average champion. Zed's historically high banrates have always been because his insane map pressure made him firmly stonger than most other champions.

No he is 37th in winrate at his position (Mid). He is 156/185 in overall win rate. I have only compared Zed to how he is currently to other champions yet you keep using a straw man argument. Your whole banrate to winrate argument has very little backing to it and you can even use Zac to verify this. He has consistently been around 50% win rate when he had a low and high ban rate. Show me a single metric that suggests Zed is performing at a high level. Ban rates do not effect a champion's ability to win games, they simply decrease the sample size.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

OneMustFall1 votes

{quoted}

You already have a metric in front of you: high pick+ban rates have historically always correlated with champion strength. There is no reason to believe this will change.

High pick/ban rates have a huge impact on a champion's ability to win a game. Consider a champion like galio with a 1% pick/ban rate. His winrate are heavily influenced by the .1% of the community that play him the best into team compositions which fit his kit the best. Now consider a champion with a pick rate of 30%. Mathematically, no more than 3% of the games he is played in are done by the .1% of the community who plays the champion the best. The other 97% of the games represent the champion's performance in the hands of an inferior player.

Now add in a high ban rate on top of that. Champions with high ban rates are generally only allowed through when the other team knows they will be picking a strong counter matchup. Therefore, not only does the winrate reflect weaker players playing said champion, they reflect the champion into far worse matchups. A low winrate in the setting of a high pick+ban rate does not reflect a weak champion, it simply reflects the fact that overpowered champions are forced into suboptimal situations far more than balanced champions.

Zac has gotten much stronger over the last few patches and yet his winrate have not moved nearly as much. This shows that something else is artificially suppressing his winrate (his insanely high pick+ban rates right now).

Your whole argument stems around that high ban rates influence win rates because you would only see the champions played against champs that counter them if they weren't banned. But there is no evidence to show that is true. If you look at Zed, you see he plays about the same overall games against champs that beat him vs champs that he counters EXCEPT there are far more champions that beat him than he counters.

Katarina vs Zed was a matchup Zed used to be able to win or at least go even with. Looking at the stats now, there is no doubt Kat has a large advantage vs Zed and outclasses him in every aspect. Zed loses to so many champions now mid because he lacks the killing power he once had. Once again, the only reason Zed is highly banned is because of the QSS changes. He's an annoyance to ADCs but he is not at all powerful. High level players (Like Bjergsen) have stated Zed is insanely weak right now. There is no metrics that suggest otherwise.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

OneMustFall1 votes

{quoted}

It is about how familiar players are with and against a champion. They will only let an overpowered champion through when they are familiar with a counter matchup which is why high ban rates have empirically always suppressed win rates.

Also, you can never say a champion is weak when they have a high pick and ban rate. That is by far the most accurate measure of champion power out of all of the easily attainable stats historically and there is no reason to believe this patch is any different.

You have provided nothing to refute other than stating things which can't be proven. You have no data to back up your "historical" claims so there is nothing left to debate here except stating "You're wrong". Good day.

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

Ban rate is not and never will be indicative on whether a champion is balanced or not. A champion can be severely underpowered and still have a high ban rate.

See Zed and Yasou.

Do you honestly thing Yasuo and Zed are "severely underpowered?"

Astôlfo1 votes

Okay, so what?

Zac's strong. His counters getting nerfed made him better. He himself doesn't need nerfs.

And banrate means almost nothing anyways.

OneMustFall1 votes

He currently has a 44% ban rate, third behind Zac and Yasou.

Calabok1 votes

Yes, i agree nerf Zac.

More from Gameplay

More by Rivuo