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If you can't climb out of silver/bronze, it's not your fault.

z63XnLCMwX··30 votes·12,680 views

So far I have 118 games in gold this season, 59 wins, 59 loses. and have kept an average of a gold 5 mmr of around ~1500. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=revoke Some games I win, some game I lose.

I also have 773 games in silver on my main account this season. 374 wins, 399 loses. The mmr is 1074 on this account. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=grab Some games I lose, other games I lose.

My gold account is fresh to ranked this season, currently owning 21 champions with none really being my main except for Singed and got gold after placements. My silver account is older owning around 100 champs with ~90 of them I can play at least at a mid silver level and I think I placed bronze on this account when I started rank.

So why am I able to hold my rank with my gold account and unable to climb with my silver? Simple, the RNG fest is not bad in Gold. Players' skill are more or less normalized here and there isn't a huge skill discrepancy here. With the occasional troll, the games in gold are pretty fun.

Meanwhile in silver, it's a fucking nightmare. I won't be able to climb out of it unless my skill level reaches low plat or peak gold level. RNG is rampant. The games is decided by which team gets the ragers. In my past twenty games on my silver account, I had about 5-7 afks on my team alone. The skill discrepancy is huge like the difference between heavens and earth. Players there are prone to not giving a single fuck about the game and treating it as normals.

I feel your pain hardstucks. You aren't alone. The team is a legitimate excuse of why you can't climb. Grinding it out does not work. If you are able to consistently do well in lane phase, but unable to close out the game because of the team, it may be best to abandon your account and roll a fresh one.

Yes there are delusional people who will try to place the blame on you and tell you to get good. Don't listen to them. While your skills aren't LCS level, they are definitely above the tier you are in. They aren't able to provide you with hard facts, only fallacies. I have shown you with an acceptable sample size where a player can plateau at two different ranks being a whooping 500 MMR apart.

Checkmate Git Gud thumpers.

101 Comments

Jamaree13 votes

How come out I can climb out of silver with my silver accounts then?

z63XnLCMwX4 votes

{quoted}

How come out I can climb out of silver with my silver accounts then?

Please provide main account and the account you climbed out of silver with.

Edit: Hell, I looked up your boards account and you're plat 3. I even said in my post I won't be able to climb out of silver unless I reach a low plat, peak gold level.

MYSTlCFLOW3 votes

{quoted}

Please provide main account and the account you climbed out of silver with.

Edit: Hell, I looked up your boards account and you're plat 3. I even said in my post I won't be able to climb out of silver unless I reach a low plat, peak gold level.

but.. if ur not plat lvl who's fault is that then? XD

z63XnLCMwX4 votes

{quoted}

but.. if ur not plat lvl who's fault is that then? XD

Riot's fault. The entire premise of climbing the rank ladder is if you are better than your opponent then you would climb. In reality that doesn't work. If someone improved from a plat 4 level to a plat 3 level, doesn't mean they're able to climb from plat 4 to plat 3. RNG can ensure they stay at plat 4 for the rest of the season and in some cases drop to plat 5.

A player shouldn't have to stomp on the enemy to climb.

MYSTlCFLOW3 votes

{quoted}

Riot's fault. The entire premise of climbing the rank ladder is if you are better than your opponent then you would climb. In reality that doesn't work.

right.. except it does. tyler1 gets 95%+ winrates until maybe plat 2, then it slows down. but he still makes it to challenger? same goes with everyone else faker nightblue3 bjergson

If someone improved from a plat 4 level to a plat 3 level, doesn't mean they're able to climb from plat 4 to plat 3. RNG can ensure they stay at plat 4 for the rest of the season and in some cases drop to plat 5.

right because unlike rank 20 challenger and rank 1 challenger the skill difference is not that big.

if I asked you to bet $100 on the plat 3 player beating the plat 4 player, would you bet? probably not, because it's a 50/50, they're at the exact same skill level and even if one is slightly better thats still a coin flip 49% to 51%

now if I asked you to bet who'd win from a bronze 5 player or a silver 5 player, you would probably bet that $100. because b5 and S5 skill gap is so huge

and if i asked u to bet on silver 5 or gold 5? it'd be actually pretty wise to not bet since believe it or not the gap between silver 5 and gold 5 isn't too big, the biggest key difference is map awareness. and in a 1v1 you don't need to see the map

gold 5 vs plat 5? you should bet $100 on plat 5 there is a big gap in skill.

comparing plat 4 to plat 3 is dumb because one isn't better than the other, it's as you said they got RNG now bronze 5 and bronze 2 is a very big gap, just like diamond 5 and diamond 2 is a very big gap.

but a few youtube videos on real critical decision making would let u climb to gold 5. also maining annie

A player shouldn't have to stomp on the enemy to climb.

it's not your fault for not getting coaching or putting the work in to become plat+ level so you can easily climb to gold? and to slowly climb all you need is a 51% winrate, that's not stomping

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

right.. except it does. tyler1 gets 95%+ winrates until maybe plat 2, then it slows down. but he still makes it to challenger? same goes with everyone else faker nightblue3 bjergson

If someone improved from a plat 4 level to a plat 3 level, doesn't mean they're able to climb from plat 4 to plat 3. RNG can ensure they stay at plat 4 for the rest of the season and in some cases drop to plat 5.

right because unlike rank 20 challenger and rank 1 challenger the skill difference is not that big.

if I asked you to bet $100 on the plat 3 player beating the plat 4 player, would you bet? probably not, because it's a 50/50, they're at the exact same skill level and even if one is slightly better thats still a coin flip 49% to 51%

now if I asked you to bet who'd win from a bronze 5 player or a silver 5 player, you would probably bet that $100. because b5 and S5 skill gap is so huge

and if i asked u to bet on silver 5 or gold 5? it'd be actually pretty wise to not bet since believe it or not the gap between silver 5 and gold 5 isn't too big, the biggest key difference is map awareness. and in a 1v1 you don't need to see the map

gold 5 vs plat 5? you should bet $100 on plat 5 there is a big gap in skill.

comparing plat 4 to plat 3 is dumb because one isn't better than the other, it's as you said they got RNG now bronze 5 and bronze 2 is a very big gap, just like diamond 5 and diamond 2 is a very big gap.

but a few youtube videos on real critical decision making would let u climb to gold 5. also maining annie

it's not your fault for not getting coaching or putting the work in to become plat+ level so you can easily climb to gold? and to slowly climb all you need is a 51% winrate, that's not stomping

Full of fallacies. Escpecially "> it's not your fault for not getting coaching or putting the work in to become plat+ level so you can easily climb to gold? and to slowly climb all you need is a 51% winrate, that's not stomping"

Hate to break it to you but I'm already gold.

Furthermore what you're saying is you need to be an entire rank above your current skill level to be able to climb. This is bullshit. I used to play competitive chess in tournaments and the MMR system isn't bullshit. Even a minor 40-50 MMR difference can highly favour a person. A 1550 MMR person has an 80%+ chance of beating a 1500 MMR person. In league, you can have a true MMR a few hundred higher than where you are and you still won't be able to climb.

MYSTlCFLOW2 votes

{quoted}

Full of fallacies. Escpecially "> it's not your fault for not getting coaching or putting the work in to become plat+ level so you can easily climb to gold? and to slowly climb all you need is a 51% winrate, that's not stomping"

how is this a fallacy? it can only be you who gets yourself coaching or improvements.. and all it takes is a 51% winrate. you don't need to be an entire rank above, just win 1 more game

BlinDzOrE4 votes

This is just not true. That's the deal. 51% winrate isn't enough, because if you just lower your mmr a bit due to some trolls/afkers you will then need a higher winrate (55/56% or even more) to stay EVEN on lp until you RANDOMLY get a huge winstreak and you fix your mmr. Then you're back in the same spot (needing 51/52% wr to climb). This is the problem of the current system: your mmr only depends on you winning or losing games, but there are plenty of games that are just unwinnable, whether you're the best player in the world or the average bronzie. Your mmr should be based just on how you play the game, not on your winrate.

AlienPrimate2 votes

I climbed form silver 3 to gold 5 in 39 games playing exclusively support. It's not that hard if you know how to play. People in low elo always try telling me that support sucks or you can't climb unless you carry. Please do tell how I can go 29-10 playing only support if my teams are all trolls and are holding me back.

jaypiff5 votes

because your main account is platinum. nice troll tho buddy. what are you doing with multiple accounts in silver anyway if your main account is plat?

ValiantKiller5 votes

{quoted}

How come out I can climb out of silver with my silver accounts then?

He said RNG of teammates you get, RNG. Maybe you are better lucky with teammates ? I dropped from g4 to s3 in few days cause i had the worst players in 2 days and then i climbed back to g5 in no time when i had good teammates.

Jamaree2 votes

{quoted}

He said RNG of teammates you get, RNG. Maybe you are better lucky with teammates ? I dropped from g4 to s3 in few days cause i had the worst players in 2 days and then i climbed back to g5 in no time when i had good teammates.

So it is never your fault for losing elo ever, only because you get bad teammates?

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

So it is never your fault for losing elo ever, only because you get bad teammates?

Dude ofcouse their many games where you going to lose cause either yourself was the reason to fail, or all lanes lost but right now most of matchmaking is decide by factor that you got 2 bad players out of 5. Special if that two bad players was mid and adc since they got the most effect on map.

Jamaree4 votes

{quoted}

Dude ofcouse their many games where you going to lose cause either yourself was the reason to fail, or all lanes lost but right now most of matchmaking is decide by factor that you got 2 bad players out of 5. Special if that two bad players was mid and adc since they got the most effect on map.

Ok, so when you are the one who ends up being the reason your team loses, is that because of bad matchmaking then?

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

Ok, so when you are the one who ends up being the reason your team loses, is that because of bad matchmaking then?

2 of 5 games is your fault, 1 you win and 2 you lose cause 2 bad players in each game cause you can't hard carry any game unless you have like 7-0 KDA lead and 100+cs which is impossible unless you play against very poorly players.

z63XnLCMwX7 votes

{quoted}

So it is never your fault for losing elo ever, only because you get bad teammates?

None of us said it's never our fault, but if our ratio of good games: bad games > 1 and we're not able to climb, then there's a problem with the system.

Jamaree6 votes

{quoted}

None of us said it's never our fault, but if our ratio of good games: bad games > 1 and we're not able to climb, then there's a problem with the system.

But you aren't having more good games then bad, hence why you have nearly 20 more losses on one account then another.

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

But you aren't having more good games then bad, hence why you have nearly 20 more losses on one account then another.

It's funny how I have a 35% win rate on my silver account isn't it? Maybe it's because of the something something 5-7 games afk I had. Love me RNG.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

How come out I can climb

Are you Yoda? Teach me ways of the force

KVbqbFsC8e10 votes

Its hilarious that this board actually believes this.

Malak3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R8J7hWjz,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-09T03:25:42.563+0000)

Its hilarious that this board actually believes this.

yea, no way in hell a gold 4 player can't hardcarry most games in silver 5. Literally just play master yi and you can 1v5 midgame

Revoke3 votes

{quoted}

yea, no way in hell a gold 4 player can't hardcarry most games in silver 5. Literally just play master yi and you can 1v5 midgame

Nope I can't. Not when 30% of the games I play have afks. And 30% of the games I win are because the enemy afks.

AlienPrimate4 votes

If you use that as your logic, then 30% of your games will have an afk on your team and 37.5% will have one on the enemy team. If you yourself never afk, that leaves 4 randoms on your team who could afk or 5 on the enemy team who could afk. This means the "there are always afk's" argument is actually beneficial to you over a large amount of games. There is always an 11.1% greater chance of the enemy team having an afk than your own if you solo queue and a 25% greater chance if you duo queue.

z63XnLCMwX5 votes

{quoted}

If you use that as your logic, then 30% of your games will have an afk on your team and 37.5% will have one on the enemy team. If you yourself never afk, that leaves 4 randoms on your team who could afk or 5 on the enemy team who could afk. This means the "there are always afk's" argument is actually beneficial to you over a large amount of games. There is always an 11.1% greater chance of the enemy team having an afk than your own if you solo queue and a 25% greater chance if you duo queue.

Because possibility =/= probability =/= result. I can have a 0.0001% chance of winning the lottery but could still win it 10 times in a row. Just because something is more probable to happen does not mean it will happen. This is called gambler's fallacy.

AlienPrimate5 votes

Except your probability of winning the lottery 10 times in a row would then be .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance. If you take a coin flip that is 50% chance to be heads and 50% chance of being tails and flip it 10 times, you will often find that it will be something like 7-3 or 6-4 instead of 5-5. If you then take it and flip 1000 times, you will never get 700-300 or even 600-400. Doing things more when talking exact probabilities will just reinforce the math to show it to be true.

Getting to my point, if you have 10 games with afk's in them in solo queue you could quite easily have 7 ally afk's and 3 enemy. Get 100 though and you will likely get close to the 44 ally afk's and 56 enemy afk's.

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

Except your probability of winning the lottery 10 times in a row would then be .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance. If you take a coin flip that is 50% chance to be heads and 50% chance of being tails and flip it 10 times, you will often find that it will be something like 7-3 or 6-4 instead of 5-5. If you then take it and flip 1000 times, you will never get 700-300 or even 600-400. Doing things more when talking exact probabilities will just reinforce the math to show it to be true.

Getting to my point, if you have 10 games with afk's in them in solo queue you could quite easily have 7 ally afk's and 3 enemy. Get 100 though and you will likely get close to the 44 ally afk's and 56 enemy afk's.

I really don't want to have to explain math to you if you believe a 600-400 isn't possible in a coin toss in 1000 tries.

AlienPrimate2 votes

Here is a summary of a chemistry lecture I had in college having to deal with air pressure. Air pressure is caused by air molecules hitting your skin at varying speeds. These speeds can vary from infinitesimal to infinite. The pressure you feel on your skin is determined by how fast these molecules are moving. You can guess how fast the molecules are moving by taking a probability based on the air pressure. If you follow just 10 molecules hitting your skin, you could get a wide variety of speeds just because of the low data pool. The curve of making a graph from them will look something like /\ with x axis being a range of speeds y axis being a number of molecules within each range. As you add more and more molecules it will go from /\ to ..l.. as the number of molecules in a specific range (the air pressure) becomes so high that the outliers can no longer even be seen on the graph.

AlienPrimate1 votes

I just did an experiment of my own for you and recorded it in google sheets.

The max error after 30 flips was 10%.

After 100 flips was 5.1%

After 500 flips was 2.6%

After 650 flips was 1.3%

Got sick of this after 753 flips with 372 heads and 381 tails for 49.4% heads and 50.6% tails.

After this, yes, I believe that 600-400 in a coin flip test is very much impossible and will never be achieved in a 1000 flip test. For me to get that on this current test, I would have to flip 219 - 28 for the rest of the test.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xkD28NfIHO0Yy-A92HSCeyAsczpPBrN5xAGbTD_J1FM/edit?usp=sharing

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

This is the result again after 24 more tries. https://imgur.com/a/DIZjmPL

a 539 to 461.

At this rate, a 600-400 rate should be possible. Rare, but mathematically possible.

AlienPrimate1 votes

Here are the exact numbers using a proven formula of the chances to get exactly 600 heads/tails and 400 of the other.

1/496527238625422886115073562889623132621341353659827604662932184012645905732096457382164964136575507417172339042089778751904887857092411910579077412408539948204974129778390437393954251676800524680653478266662364352619244180931154020701111982328000776980305955525649501369943202079996789539150000

.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002013%

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

Here are the exact numbers using a proven formula of the chances to get exactly 600 heads/tails and 400 of the other.

1/496527238625422886115073562889623132621341353659827604662932184012645905732096457382164964136575507417172339042089778751904887857092411910579077412408539948204974129778390437393954251676800524680653478266662364352619244180931154020701111982328000776980305955525649501369943202079996789539150000

.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002013%

I don't know what formula you're using, but If the coin were fair, then the standard deviation for 1000 flips is 1/2√1000≈16, so a result with 600 heads is roughly 6 standard deviations from the mean, or more accurately 6.33 sigma.

Using the standard bellcurve, this will put us at a 3.5 x 10^-8 or 3.5 per billion. Your numbers are way off.

MYSTlCFLOW4 votes

{quoted}

Because possibility =/= probability =/= result. I can have a 0.0001% chance of winning the lottery but could still win it 10 times in a row. Just because something is more probable to happen does not mean it will happen. This is called gambler's fallacy.

if you know that the odds of black winning is 90% and odds of red winning is 10% and you pick red, you are retarded regardless of whether or not you ended up winning. change my mind.

if you believe that you made a good choice choosing red then you are way too outcome dependent, if you pick black and are okay with having lost then you are result oriented. that is what separates you from higher elo.

you probably went 0/20/0 one game, had your team carry you and said " oh wow the outcome was me winning, so i'll keep going 0/20/0"

CaptainAntiHeroz8 votes

Sad but true

Malak6 votes

Nah this is not true. Silver is very frustrating because a lot of games are decided by feeders, afk, and trolls but if you are silver and you played over 150 games in ranked you probably belong maybe 1 division higher at most. At that point you probably need to improve somehow.

All you have to do to climb, is win the games that aren't so clear cut. The games that might go either way. Don't sweat the autolosses, and enjoy the ride in the autowins

DU Baymax4 votes

except that it is. It is within the realm of reason that someone whose rank is low to mid gold would get stuck somewhere around mid silver. Especially over so few games. There is not a big difference in that rank. Sure, if you are a gold 5 player, you might have a hard time climbing out of silver 2 because your true skill level is not that different from those around you. It will take far longer for you to rank up. But if your skill level is plat 5, you will have no trouble climbing out of silver 2 because the skill difference is much wider. It will take far less time.

DU Baymax2 votes

{quoted}

except that it is. It is within the realm of reason that someone whose rank is low to mild gold would get stuck somewhere around mid silver. Especially over so few games. There is not a big difference in that rank. Sure, if you are a gold 5 player, you might have a hard time climbing out of silver 2 because your true skill level is not that different from those around you. It will take far longer for you to rank up. But if your skill level is plat 5, you will have no trouble climbing out of silver 2 because the skill difference is much wider. It will take far less time.

Plus, I promise you people are plenty toxic at the higher ranks.

Madsin254 votes

This is just not true at all.

Climbing out of bronze and silver is as simple as mastering mechanics and having the confidence to use them when you need to.

Way to many low elo games are lost because of the simple fact the teams have no confidence, no pressure, way to much hesitation and general lack of mechanical ability.(what you think is good for high silver is actually garbage)

You are not entitled to climb period. Good luck in your quest for improvement.

If you want a tip it is to play around your team, stop thinking it is your responsibility to 1v5 out of silver and start using your head to play smart.

VexingRaven3 votes

Riot has this idea that you should be drastically better than everybody else in your tier to advance. Just being a little better isn't enough. Plat players can easily climb out of silver, but gold players even though they're clearly better will struggle hugely with climbing out of silver.

z63XnLCMwX4 votes

{quoted}

Riot has this idea that you should be drastically better than everybody else in your tier to advance. Just being a little better isn't enough. Plat players can easily climb out of silver, but gold players even though they're clearly better will struggle hugely with climbing out of silver.

This. A portion of boards don't understand why having to be significantly better to climb is unfair. The idea of climbing is as you improve your rank should improve along with you. Not, as you improve your rank should stagnate until you hit the next tier where you rank suddenly jump up to catch it.

I want to play a game where if I'm plat 5 and improve to plat 4, 3, 2, 1, my rank would slowly move from plat 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2 -> 1. Not have to wait to improve to diamond 3 before my rank jumps from hardstuck plat 5 to plat 1.

theChibiTina2 votes

I'm not gonna say you should blame your teammates. You should always look at and critique you on game play as well, but you shouldn't have be Plat just to get out of Silver. You're rank should increase as your skill increases. Riot has worked hard to make it so that one person can't carry the team anymore since it's supposed to be a team oriented game, but that's not really fair when you consider that one person can lose the game for the team still. It doesn't make sense.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

If you have an account in Gold, but can't get out of Silver in over 700 games, then I think that might say something about your skill level rather than the system.

saltran2 votes

[deleted]

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

Git gud and maybe you can get out of silver instead of crying on the Boards

Then why am I already gold?

saltran1 votes

Oh my bad then, but your thread is still bullshit

MYSTlCFLOW2 votes

{quoted}

Oh my bad then, but your thread is still bullshit

don't sweat it, he already told us the reason he's gold . whisper he got lucky.

remember Seen believes it's all luck, hes a true silver 5 player who lucked an account into gold V, and for him to deny it would be for him to deny everything he's said so far, so you can call him silver 5 all you want XD

z63XnLCMwX4 votes

{quoted}

don't sweat it, he already told us the reason he's gold . whisper he got lucky.

remember Seen believes it's all luck, hes a true silver 5 player who lucked an account into gold V, and for him to deny it would be for him to deny everything he's said so far, so you can call him silver 5 all you want XD

This. Call me silver 5 all you want. There's no difference between gold and silver anyways.

Logank3652 votes

No, it is your fault if you can't climb out of bronze, until this season I'd just made sure I was in at least silver before the season ended. Climbing out of bronze is super easy. Silver's tougher since you might get players better than Silver, players worse than silver (most new accounts get placed in silver), and some that belong. But you can still definitely carry yourself out of it, you can whine all you want about other players but you could probably be playing way better than you are, there's a reason you're stuck and it's not always your team.

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