Buffs for Riven, Camille and Darius? The horror...

Raoul·Nov 18, 2017·6 votes·2,116 views

https://i.imgur.com/KIyGZtZ.jpg

I agree that they are weak. but honestly, I do not WANT them to be strong because they are either overloaded AF or super unfun to play against or both.

http://i.memeful.com/media/post/3M23xLR_700wa_0.gif

63 Comments

Stars ShaperNov 18, 20173 votes

A buff to Aurelion Sol :O

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20172 votes

wait. why did riven drop off with the rune changes? she has a bunch of strong options.

her entire playstile is spamming a bunch of auto attacks between short cooldown spells.

it shouldnt be any problem for her to trigger electrocute. dark harvest is also a decent choice. heck, she can even make good use of arcane comet with her stun and knockup, or go for press the attack.

pretty much every rune tree has something for her.

she probably wants coup de grace from precision, then there are a bunch of strong choices in sorcery (ultimate hat, transcendence, scorch/gathering storm), and domination for her main path.

so how did this happen?

Zero Skill TankNov 18, 20171 votes

Lack of AS runes makes her combo take longer time, making it actually possible for enemies to hit her back.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R3q7ansW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-18T12:24:57.311+0000)

Lack of AS runes makes her combo take longer time, making it actually possible for enemies to hit her back.

but...

there is no lack of as runes. all you have to do is go precision then and take press the attack. its a viable option for her, since she wants to weave auto attacks anyway.

the tree itself grants 18% attack speed. previous as reds gained you 15% attack speed. this is anb argument that has been frequently brought up with certain champions that i dont understand.

Zero Skill TankNov 18, 20172 votes

If you do that, you won't have any AD from runes, which is even worse. For a champion with high scalings like Riven, press the attack won't make up for this.

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

Domination secondary to get AD?

Zero Skill TankNov 18, 20171 votes

Eyeball collection takes quite some time to stack, so you still lose early game pressure.

Or do you mean trait? I'm fairly certain you only get trait from your main path, but I'll check.

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

No I didn’t mean trait but you’re right on that aspect.

True, eyeball collector does take time to stack and stacks faster if snowballing. I guess I just see Riven as having a strong enough early game to say that that isn’t a problem. Now I don’t know Riven like a Riven main, and I won’t deny that I hate fighting Riven (I always end up fighting rank 7 whenever I face one). That being said, from what I gather from Riven, she’s a burst fighter without sustain, leading her to suck against durable targets which I think are more frequent in top right now.

So it’s not surprising she’s not doing good. If they were to buff her however, I don’t think it should be to compensate her against durable targets. Otherwise her only weakness in top lane would be from free harass targets or people who could outburst her. The ranged harass game is incredibly unfun and idk how I feel about champions like Renekton becoming meta to deal with Riven mains.

Of course this could be a completely incorrect view. I understand that. I still believe however that Riven isn’t supposed to be on equal footing against durable champions.

RexxieeNov 18, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R3q7ansW,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-18T12:32:22.619+0000)

but...

there is no lack of as runes. all you have to do is go precision then and take press the attack. its a viable option for her, since she wants to weave auto attacks anyway.

the tree itself grants 18% attack speed. previous as reds gained you 15% attack speed. this is anb argument that has been frequently brought up with certain champions that i dont understand.

Press the atack is terrible, riven doesnt use bonus as at all and by the time you get it stacked you already blew your whole combo (so what is the damage amp for again? Just her aas while her whole kit is on cd?), nice joke.

Critmaster GarenNov 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Press the atack is terrible, riven doesnt use bonus as at all and by the time you get it stacked you already blew your whole combo (so what is the damage amp for again? Just her aas while her whole kit is on cd?), nice joke.

the lack of attack speed runes was the argument i responded to.

AceGeoNov 18, 20171 votes

You're supposed to auto in between her abilities. Cmon man :( Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Noxian PrideNov 18, 20171 votes

Yeah, but by the time you got 3 autos off, you've used the majority of your abilities and have to back off.

If it was like Fervor where it gave you a slow bonus over time that'd be one thing, but PtA only gives you its bonus at the very end.

AceGeoNov 19, 20171 votes

This is a paraphrase from my diamond Riven main friend from High school: "Once you get the Q knockup- you auto, and then after using W- you auto, and then dash away if you haven't already used it." I've played her enough to agree with his statement. You have at least 2 autos you can fit in. Maybe Glacial Augment would be fun on her. I'm not sure. Dang, maybe I'll try that next game >;)

PennsNov 18, 20171 votes

Because tanks are opie :]

ChallengerTierNov 18, 20171 votes

removal of fervor, so only keystone you can go is electrocute, which has 50s cooldown, or aery, which only helps with laning. Tanks are far superior this patch, abuse while you can. (M A O K A I). Arcane comet is bad compared to aery, since aery sacrifices a bit of dmg for guaranteed hit, dark harvest is trash on laners idk why you would get that. Press the attack is terrible because once you've done 3 autos with fast q, majority of your damage is gone.

ŚhunpoNov 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R3q7ansW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-18T12:03:53.975+0000)

wait. why did riven drop off with the rune changes? she has a bunch of strong options.

her entire playstile is spamming a bunch of auto attacks between short cooldown spells.

it shouldnt be any problem for her to trigger electrocute. dark harvest is also a decent choice. heck, she can even make good use of arcane comet with her stun and knockup, or go for press the attack.

pretty much every rune tree has something for her.

she probably wants coup de grace from precision, then there are a bunch of strong choices in sorcery (ultimate hat, transcendence, scorch/gathering storm), and domination for her main path.

so how did this happen?

I will say one thing, doing a fast Q combo is so awkward now given how much attack speed you get.

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

I don’t think she really dropped. Last I checked her winrate is around 50%

ApocalypsicNov 18, 20171 votes

Try around 47-48

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

48 doesn’t seem awful. That sounds like the bottom of average.

Where are you getting your info?

Sun Wu RyuumokuNov 18, 20172 votes

She's at the bottom of top lane rank...

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

Again, where is this information coming from?

ApocalypsicNov 18, 20172 votes

Lolalytics has her as one of the worst top lane champions in the game right now.

As well her pick rate in anything above gold has plummeted because everyone knows she's a lose condition right now against any team with half a braincell and a tank or two.

The problem is that she's designed to kill everything and outplay when played well but against anything other than squishies she does absolutely terrible right now. Riven is a slayer not an assassin, playing her as an assassin may works sometimes but its very very non optimal, if I wanted to pick out a squishy target I'd play talon or Zed who have reasonable ways out. Riven burns all her CD's to gapclose and then dies as is, instead of plowing through the line and slogging it out with tanks and squishies alike (as she could with Fervor.)

TLDR: she's a toplane bruiser and not a full lethality assassin, and she can't be played in the toplane against semi intelligent opponenets right now so she's useless.

RalanrNov 18, 20172 votes

“The problem is that she's designed to kill everything and outplay when played well ”

Can I take a moment to reflect on this?

This is admittedly how I tend to see her design at times and I absolutely hate that. It makes me believe that against a good Riven player you might as well not play because she’s going to beat you into uselessness then roam and kill everyone else and come late game she’ll kill any threat that comes her way while outplaying everyone else.

This is an exaggeration obviously, but it’s how I feel whenever I fight a rank 7 Riven. I do not feel I can capitalize on her unless she makes a mistake.

And I know I’m just going to be told “you’re silver, you don’t know a good Riven” or something like that which is not fine. I know I’m silver, I know I’m not great at the game. Idk if the Riven I’m fighting is good in the grand scheme of things. All I know is that Idk how to fight or outplay a Riven who understands her mechanics and has reached ranks 6-7 and I’d like to know how to fight and beat those Riven players (through tactics, not items) so I can not want to stay under my tower cooking marshmallows over a campfire while she farms up and proceeds to dive me.

So yeah I can see that even as a high skill cap champion she’s not doing well right now. Could she use buffs? Sure. I’d just prefer the buffs to be outside of her laning phase because I’m tired of avalanching Riven’s and a lack of teaching on how to actually outplay her.

ApocalypsicNov 18, 20171 votes

Ninja tabi, other armor items (especially without her having access to fervor) Understanding if she's dragging out her Q's and giving her berth if she hits six and you don't feel you can fight her.

Watch some combo videos on her and visit /r Rivenmains, to know your enemy will better enable you to face them.

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

I meant outside of builds. But yeah, I’ll be taking a look.

I’m just hoping her laning isn’t buffed.

ApocalypsicNov 18, 20171 votes

It will help a lot I promise, if you can know what she's planning before she even plans it then you wont feel blindsided.

For example if you're staying under tower low on HP and you're thinking "I'll just CC her before she can pull of a combo and bait her into losing out," you'd be wrong. In that situation it would be prudent to realize riven has a combo that allows her to cast WQ at the same time and proc an auto right before as well. Canceling W animation to immediately Q is caused by an interaction with her e which leads to a combo known as the doublecast combo, commonly used to pick of low HP laners or oneshot squishy targets when combined with ult if you're fed enough.

TLDR: She's a very complicated champion with a lot of moving parts and taking the effort to at least understand those parts will enable you to play against her better.

Sun Wu RyuumokuNov 18, 20171 votes

from lolalytics. its really weird. with most assassins being meta... and her using same build and mastery, wouldn't be surprising to see her strong...

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

Actually it makes perfect sense imo since most assassins are in mid against champions that suck against lethality. Top lane doesn’t.

AirKingNeoNov 18, 20174 votes

Doesn't matter. She shouldn't be buffed.

Had enough of pickban Riven in season 7, don't need the Riven main on the balance team to make her broken again.

RexxieeNov 18, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R3q7ansW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-18T12:03:53.975+0000)

wait. why did riven drop off with the rune changes? she has a bunch of strong options.

her entire playstile is spamming a bunch of auto attacks between short cooldown spells.

it shouldnt be any problem for her to trigger electrocute. dark harvest is also a decent choice. heck, she can even make good use of arcane comet with her stun and knockup, or go for press the attack.

pretty much every rune tree has something for her.

she probably wants coup de grace from precision, then there are a bunch of strong choices in sorcery (ultimate hat, transcendence, scorch/gathering storm), and domination for her main path.

so how did this happen?

Speaking like someone who has never played riven before.

Electrocute is trash top lane, dark haverst is bad on everyone, it was nerfed hard on pbe.

All she can use viably is aery and aftershock, both because they are broken not because they are good on riven.

Riven cannot lane against tanks anymore without fervor, just like almost every other figther, thats why shes getting buffed.

AirKingNeoNov 18, 20172 votes

Darius needs buffs. 45% winrate.

Riven doesn't.

RaoulNov 18, 20172 votes

Honestly, I dont care how bad they are, I know they are weak. My point is, I do not WANT these champions to be strong, because they are cancer and unfun to play against.

ApocalypsicNov 18, 20172 votes

And for that reason alone your post should be ignored as anything other than a nice read.

Its called Bias, we all have it, and it invalidates our opinions on a level of balance perspective.

Daenerys THICCNov 18, 20172 votes

Whoever is below Plat, please don't post anything about balance regarding the 3. You're too biased. The reason these 3 needs buffs is the fact that fervor removal and attack speed from runes has hurt them to a large degree. Let me explain

Darius: Oh man this one hurts for me since I used to one trick Darius. It's impossible now. With the removal of fervor his damage has dropped considerably. That's directly damage cuts to his Q and really more importantly his R. With the nerf to his passive a couple patches ago fervor was the only thing keeping him somewhat viable. Considering hes supposed to be a JUGGERNAUT he gets completely shit on by a vast majority of the top lane roster, melees included, ever since the new runes shipped out. For example: Fiora Gnar Gragas Jayce Irelia Maokai Pantheon Riven Shen Singed Urgot Yorick . These are the majority of champions Darius gets shit on or at best goes even. NOT EVEN INCLUDING RANGED LIKE Kennen Quinn . AND HES SUPPOSE TO BE A JUGGERNAUT. Hes so easy to beat in lane and with all the countless cries of low elo players hes shafted into something pathetic. Theirs a reason I've dropped Darius, even though I've played him for 4 seasons, and moved on to Xin Zhao to actually climb.

Riven: She wasn't really hurt as bad in my opinion, but that only applies to her Lethality assassin playstyle. Her more tankier, side, such as the item 3071 item 3812 side is the one that hurts the most. With the lack of fervor, her damage has dropped a considerable amount. It's actually IMPOSSIBLE to do short burst trades as Cleaver Riven if you run say Press the Attack since that requires 3 autoattacks. To those of you who don't know, Riven's short burst trade is Q onto the target -> W -> AA -> E out. This is no problem running Electrocute since that would proc it but you need 3 AUTOATTACKS to proc Press the Attack, that common trade tactic only involes one AA. The lack of attack speed runes also makes it a bit harder to ani-cancel Q for every Riven player in general.

Camille: Lack of fervor makes it so the majority of her damage, her true damage on her Q, is not amplified in anyway. With fervor it gave extra AD which, in turn, increased all her damage including the true damage portion. Press the Attack DOES NOT increase the true damage since its well, true damage.

Anyway, theirs your reasons coming from a player who used to play Darius and Riven religiously. Now it's actually depressing. I've moved onto Xin Zhao since to me hes just a stat check who can beat pretty much anyone top lane, which was suppose to be Darius' job.

RalanrNov 18, 20171 votes

Just an FYI, even if you’re plat and above you can still be too biased towards certain champions and playstyles when asking for balance changes.

RaoulNov 18, 20172 votes

Honestly, that BS "lolol, get on my level" bias you put in your first sentence already stoped mefrom reading or giving a fack about your post.

Daenerys THICCNov 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, that BS "lolol, get on my level" bias you put in your first sentence already stoped mefrom reading or giving a fack about your post.

There it is, the low elo salt. I didn't expect you to try and comprehend logic

RaoulNov 18, 20171 votes

Let me guess, you always one tricked the current OP of the month, and are now super proud of a little icon and think you are better than others, right?

Kinda cute I have to admit.

Daenerys THICCNov 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Let me guess, you always one tricked the current OP of the month, and are now super proud of a little icon and think you are better than others, right?

Kinda cute I have to admit.

Current OP of the month? I top laned Xin Zhao after years of playing Darius. Define current OP of the month because you, yeah, are diluded and cant handle the truth.

RaoulNov 18, 20171 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/IgsXOXGPxfT3O/giphy.gif

Thanks, i needed a laugh and imaginingy you in this scene made me crack real good :) I think I like you xD

ChallengerTierNov 18, 20171 votes

silver for three seasons

[sg-lux-2]

RaoulNov 19, 20171 votes

how can I be anything during the last 3 seasons when I dont touch ranked any more? I am pretty sure i ended my seasons unranked...

FragglerocNov 18, 20171 votes

Why shouldn't they balance for below Plat? They should look at those above Plat but that doesnt mean they should ignore everything below Plat.

From what I see, to get to Plat and above, u most likely just need to "cheese" with certain champs- and thats where your main "game knowledge" comes from- the main skill of the game comes with knowing how to cheese with certain champs. Admittedly u have to patch those 'cheese tactics' early.

But u should never ignore those below Plat where the majority of players are. U need to find some sorta balance at Gold and Silver too.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 18, 20172 votes

I would like to know why you think that becuase you don't like these champions they should stay bad.

I can assure you that there are people who despise your mains, but that is not a valid reason to gut them

RaoulNov 18, 20171 votes

I bet there is noone who hates my main!

Well, mostly because I dont have a main xD

TyrekGoldenspearNov 18, 20171 votes

Lol. Touché.

But you know what I mean. ;)

Support PositionNov 18, 20171 votes

All these champs need to do. Is put Aftershock on as their keystone and play like they are intended. To be tanky. Get to it.

I literally play Camille support now with aftershock -.- EZ KILLS EZ ESCAPES.

AnagsNov 18, 20171 votes

And meanwhile Voli is in a worse state than any of them. But nothing about him at all.

At least people still play those champs.

EschetonNov 18, 20171 votes

Gee, how strange that non-tank melee monster dualists are weak in the patch that ranged toplaners are doing really well due to how they can use the runes. Don't buff them and let them get their winrate out of the tanks they are already dominating plz. Just nerf toplane Teemo/Quinn/Vayne/Jayce.