This has boggled my mind for so long

I Main Swain·May 30, 2015·2 votes·852 views

why does vayne's w need to deal % max hp true damage? I see no logical reason for it. sure she's squishy, but that is just going to far. every damage anything should have at the very least items to build to resist it, but with her passive you can't to more than mildly slow down the nuke. please make it flat damage instead of % max hp.

edit: correction and clarification to the above. first off, i don't think she needs a nerf or anything, i just don't think that kind of damage is healthy. they should A) make it a large amount of flat true damage and/or B) lower the base and give it an ad ratio

35 Comments

GenuwhineMay 30, 20156 votes

yeah why is cait allowed long range? vayne should just be melee with no max % and no range at all even problem solved Kappa. fucking bronzies

FedAsFukMay 30, 20151 votes

WHile I disagree with your attitude in the response, overall it is correct. Vayne is in a good balance spot, the ADCs with % HP damage are designed to be weak early and TRUE hyper carries late, not the LoL sometimes skewed definition. There are many ways of counterplay and balance leavers, if she was truly as OP as you claim, she would be a perma pick and have a 80% win rate

GenuwhineMay 30, 20151 votes

You should be a online emotional analyst since you can see through emotion online you must the next Einstein!

SexyTaylorSwiftJun 2, 20151 votes

I think you need this.

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I Main SwainMay 30, 20151 votes

you sir are the reason people hate this community.

XinotineMay 30, 20152 votes

Or you could maybe, maybe consider not standing still while she shoots you down. You could maybe, maybe CC and burst her down, have your Zed Akali Leblanc assassinate her in seconds. Or you could even maybe, maybe consider getting something like item 3110 item 3143 and item 3075 against her ^^ good luck on following games

I Main SwainMay 30, 20151 votes

first off, ive heard that there are ways to talk in which you aren't a douche. you should try it.

second, it isn't like you can run away from her very well with most champs. as for your third point, getting any of those on their own doesn't really help all that much. I mean, they work well, but she just powers through them with her w. im not saying she shouldn't have true dmg at all, that's retarded. im saying it shouldn't be % max hp

XinotineMay 31, 20151 votes

Sorry. But % HP true damage is Vayne's unique advantage, and reason she is picked over other ADC's. Without it she would be somewat bad. She has not reasonable way to harass her enemies during laning and her laning is generally pretty bad. She would be basically nothing without her tankbusting ability. During laning Vayne will almost never land silver bolts on you if you play smart, or if she does she will propabky hurt herself more in process. Yes, her lategame is amazing, but to get there she needs to work. Just like Caitlyn has strong early with cost of falling off later.

I Main SwainJun 1, 20151 votes

well they could at the very least reduce the base and give it a scaling.

XinotineJun 2, 20151 votes

Why does she need a nerf in your opinion? You can't just look at one spell on her kit and say she is OP. Her winrate is nothing expectional. There are a lot more OP ADC's in existance, I would say Vayne is one of the most balanced ADC's since she has clear strengths and weaknesses.

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

im not saying she needs a nerf, im saying its unhealthy for her to have a % max hp true damage ability that's entirely base. you could build her straight tank with a little atk speed and still be nuking the crap out of people because her only ability with a reasonable scaling is her q. so i guess what im trying to say is it isn't her w by itself that i don't like but it in combination with the lack of scalings and then the stealth. I'm not saying shes super op or that she has no counterplay, i just want to be able to build defensive against her without having to dedicate half of my build to it and i would like her to actually need some decent ad for it to deal as much.

WarlockLawJun 2, 20151 votes

If you give it an ad scaling that is basically a nerf, you would be weakening her already weak early game in order to make her "more healthy" Also you would. E destroying one of the unique build paths amongst all adc's. She is the only adc that can go botrk into phantom dancer/shiv. I think build variety across a role is far healthier fir the game. Also the percentile max health true damage is her gimmick, take that away and there is literally no reason to play vayne over other adcs. Draven gets more ad on auto attacks, vars cam stack multiple targets, most adcs out range her and have hard cc or a better escape

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

im not saying they should take away the true damage (which is her gimmick, not the % hp part), im saying they should make it a high flat amount and/or lower the base and give it a scaling. it wouldn't even necessarily be a nerf to her early game depending on how you did the numbers. I just want to be able to itemize against it reasonably well without having to dedicate half my slots to it. technically, it would be a nerf but lets be honest, its pretty stupid that her w is entirely base damage on top of being % max hp true damage. that way not only is it nearly impossible to build defensive against her successfully without dedicating most of your build to it, but she can also just build pure atk speed and still be nuking people. heck, she can build pure tank with a botrk and wits end and still be nuking people. and lets not forget that without a scaling it makes it so that her damage doesn't go down much regardless of how behind she is in gold. I honestly don't see why people even build her as an adc, shes at least as successful as a tank because she can still deal that enormous damage to everyone. again, not saying they should reduce her overall damage, just make it easier to itemize against and don't let this build be god tier item 3046 item 3153 item 3006 item 3026 item 3031 .

WarlockLawJun 3, 20151 votes

Gnar and Varus have similar % max health damage, difference being they will generally proc theirs for more damage until something like 70 mr. This means that if vayne builds pure attack speed any glass cannon build will kill her. The scaling on her silver bolts is kept low specifically to prevent it from being overbearing. And yes her identity is THE quintessential tank killing hyper carry adc. Without her w in its current design she would be probably end up being harder to balance than she currently is and they would end up buffing either her attack range or her q range

Mat7itanMay 30, 20151 votes

I thought the same thing until I played her.... she really needs it.

I Main SwainMay 30, 20151 votes

ive played her to and I honestly think that it would be better if it were just a high flat amount. im not saying that the damage itself is too high, but that the fact that its % max hp true damage makes itemizing against it near impossible if you don't want to burn half or more of your build on nothing but armor/health items. basically, you have to custom build against her and hope that it works against the rest of the team as well.

3TWarriorJun 1, 20151 votes

they could always make her another twitch/kalista with her W....punch holes in them, do burst damage in an instant

it's actually a lot less satisfying this way though, another problem, vayne only has a range of 450...she has the lowest range of all the carries

Laughing FishJun 1, 20151 votes

Vayne is the Anti-tank. Vayne is easy to kill, but the point of her is that you have to kill her, or you die. There is no defending against her for very long. Now, item 3110 item 3143 item 3075 help tremendously, but they are just prolonging the inevitable. But thankfully, this is why well built teams have an assassin. An assassin can run in, and kill Vayne. With Vayne gone, the tank is free to do the whole wall of meat thing, and save the assassin.

OhthePiplupJun 1, 20151 votes

Oh my god this thread DOES come up once a week

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

i literally haven't seen a vayne thread in at least a few months

EndlessSorcererJun 2, 20151 votes

There has been several a week for months. Not sure where you have been looking.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 1, 20151 votes

Firedancer, the reason is her weak early game.

The "flaw" (if you can call it that) in your argument is that she gets these things for free. Not so. She gets them in exchange for short range and some of the worst laning in LoL. She has to work to get her farm, and she basically hands her opponent a free lane (assuming no jungle involvement).

The entire idea behind Vayne is for her to be a heavily scaling, late game hyper carry. If she is strong before late game, it's because someone fed her. When Vayne gets fed, it's because she's a LOT better than you, or her jungle is WAY outplaying you. It's similar to Nasus, but in an ADC. I hope this helps you understand why she is that way.

TL;DR - Yes, she's supposed to do that by design, and she's also supposed to pay for it with early game weakness.

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

funny you should say scaling, because aside from the small ratio on her e, her q is the only ability she has with an ad scaling. that's what i was just about to edit in my post, that they should either make it a large flat amount of true damage or lower the base a bunch and give it a scaling.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20151 votes

Vayne scales best with attack speed, not AD. Her lack of AD ratios has nothing to do with her weak early game; you're at least correct about that.

Her damage also isn't lacking early game, and I never said it was. The issue is her short range, which can easily be abused to win trades and keep her from cs'ing. Fighting her at an even all-in is inadvisable at all levels, in my experience.

And this is the crux of the matter; I only disagree with you because she NEEDS %health true damage to be balanced. If they buffed her early game, she wouldn't need it anymore. The only reason I disagree with you about %health true damage being unhealthy is because Vayne is the only example, and she needs it.

If they buffed her early game, okay. Then you're right. But it's conditional on that, imo.

I Main SwainJun 3, 20151 votes

Fighting her at an even all-in is inadvisable at all levels, in my experience.

honestly, that right there is why I've never really considered her to have that weak of an early game if you and your support play it out right (especially if that support is Leona). if you can just constantly all-in them and keep their support from smacking away on vayne, you actually typically win early game.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20151 votes

Eh... I can't imagine that a vayne would win lane without playing quite a bit better than her opponent. Yes, engage supports can help increase the threat of poking her, which helps cover her weakness, but it doesn't make her a strong laner. I just can't agree with that.

I Main SwainJun 3, 20151 votes

not saying shes a strong laner, im just saying if you and your support know your junk she certainly isn't weak most of the time.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20151 votes

That's a semnatics argument. I'm saying that isn't true. Whether you call it "weak laning" or not is irrelevant. The point I'm making is that she IS weak in the early game. You disagree, and that's fine. You are talking about minimizing risk in that weak early game, and I'm saying that only works especially well if you're already better than your opponent.

OmiwomJun 2, 20151 votes

Her W does so little early. Even in the later stages of the game most of her damage is just the raw AD from her items and other spells. Oh and bork Why are you complaining about Vayne when she is outclassed by so many other adcs?

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

first off, she is most definitely not outclassed as an adc. second, I need to go and edit my post. i think they should EITHER A) make it flat true damage or B) lower the base and give it a scaling.

LuggJun 2, 20151 votes

She is a late game hyper carry. She needs a powerful attack or she wouldn't be worth anything. It is countered by her really weak early game.

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

there's a difference between power though and power you almost cant defend against at all. note the edit that I'm making though, tis an important one

LuggJun 2, 20151 votes

Without % health true damage, you would never kill the Sions and Mundos out there.

I Main SwainJun 2, 20151 votes

first off, you most definitely would. second, they're tanks, they're supposed to be really hard to kill.

EndlessSorcererJun 2, 20151 votes

Basically, Silver Bolts works on Vayne because:

She has no way of attacking anyone outside of her autoattack range
She has no waveclear or poke
Silver Bolts requires three hits to the same target before dealing damage

I would recommend looking at a Vayne's damage distribution to champions after a game at some point. The true damage from Silver Bolts tends to be able 1/6 of her damage to champions, while she deals primarily physical damage. Considering her short range and weak early game, this steroid is acceptable on her kit.

You can't just look at abilities in isolation to judge their strength; you have to consider the rest of the champion's kit.