Petition to reduce Lee Sin's ult AD scaling

I Main Swain·Nov 21, 2015·194 votes·5,864 views

because 200% of Bonus AD plus 200/400/600 damage is just a lot too high

238 Comments

Mael broNov 21, 201533 votes

Lee can be left to rot in unviability for all i care

Ariel the CruelNov 22, 201518 votes

lol. You know that will never happen.

The brief period where he wasn't pick/ban he was given compensation buffs. And not the Veiger kind.

Slamurai JackNov 22, 201520 votes

Petition for you to get good and stop complaining about a decidedly average champion.

OrangesilkNov 22, 20153 votes

I always laugh at the people who go "IF you have like 700 AD on a Lee he does a GAZILLION DAMAGES!!!" go ahead, try playing full AD Lee, see where it gets you, his base defensive stats are on the poor side to begin with, if he's not built tanky he is TERRIBLE simply because he disappears from the fight without doing anything relevant. He falls off lategame, to the point where his only usefulness is his base damages and what little utility his kit can offer.

Of course, if you're playing ADC and your team isn't peeling for you, AD Lee, tank Lee, tank Malph, Tahm supp are all aggressive threats, but well, that's the life of an ADC.

fééd l0rdNov 22, 20152 votes

he is silver and wanted to tell me in another thread that swain has waveclear, what do you expect? LOL

The GovernerNov 22, 20152 votes

Swain does have a bit of wave clear after 6. Before 6 though, Swain has a hard time farming, although his free mana passive helps him a bit.

OrangesilkNov 22, 20156 votes

Rank shaming is a nasty habit though, don't do it.

Swains main weakness is the lack of reliable waveclear, he'd probably see more proplay with more waveclear.

I Main SwainNov 23, 20151 votes

he only has bad waveclear pre ~8-9, more if youre doing poorly. once you hit that, if youre maxing your w, as i think is best, you waveclear pretty quickly.

edit: sorry i was unclear. I always leave the maxing e first unsaid because its the clear choice, but i forget sometimes when im saying i max my w it sounds like im saying i max it first.

My Waifu VanillaNov 23, 20152 votes

W is too unreliable to hit and will make you a sitting duck against anyone with mobility. Atleast if you go E->Q->W you can wreck anyone that tries to engage on you without an escape (especially with DFT adding a roughly .3 ratio to your E).

I Main SwainNov 23, 20151 votes

...against minions?

you're missing his w against minions?

also, like you just said, you can use your q to make landing the w more easy if you want to, and once you get enough practice with swain and with predicting enemy movements its not that hard to land your w most of the time. i land most of my w's, especially if i go up and q them first - only times i miss it then are if they use a gap closer. also, maxing w before q gives you more team fighting power, which imo is far more useful on a champ such as swain.

My Waifu VanillaNov 23, 20152 votes

Scenario: you use W to clear casters and one shot them. Your lane opponent proceeds to attack you and you are left with just rank 1 E and Q to fight them back with. You get chunked to half health and they take maybe 15%. After 6 you also have ult but if you use it you will probably drain now half of your mana at this point and go up to 65% health instead.

The only time you should need waveclear is if you are under tower in which case you should just ask for a gank and then follow up on it (W is a 2 second root at ALL ranks).

Maxing E also just gives you more damage than W in every regard. You may have less wave clear early on (but you didn't pick swain for waveclear) but you do 40 more damage with maxed E over max W (in a full rotation) and also get 12% more damage amp that applies to everything in your kit including DFT which increases E damage by quite a bit on its own. You can max W second but there is no real reason to max it over E since there will never be a guarantee to hit it 100% of the time on champions and still do less damage than if you maxed E first.

Dominick DestineNov 21, 201514 votes

That would be a start.

One of the biggest myths in LoL is that Lee has bad scaling.... Lee "falls off" when if you run the numbers, he scales better than 90% of the cast of characters.

IonianNov 21, 201518 votes

He falls off because people somehow expect item 2049 item 3117 to do tons of damage.

Sir YamazukiNov 21, 201530 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-11-21T20:55:39.112+0000)

He falls off because people somehow expect to do tons of damage.

He longer needs to build sight stone due to new smite unless he's laning and wants to buy one. He can now afford to go even tankier or build even more damage.

AbstracT TheoryNov 22, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-21T21:20:26.203+0000)

He longer needs to build sight stone due to new smite unless he's laning and wants to buy one. He can now afford to go even tankier or build even more damage.

2 wards doesnt cut it lmao. lee pros will still get sightstone.

ShonjlNov 22, 20158 votes

Couldn't he just build one of the support items? The new ones are a sightstone and combats as well. I believe there is one that is for tank stats. Sure it won't help him hit harder, but he will live better and still have his ward hopping.

KaisadiIIaNov 22, 20151 votes

I think it'd conflict with jungler items because both are considered "gold generation items". At least that's how it worked last season.

Lumen SageNov 22, 20156 votes

Jungle items no longer give bonus gold, only bonus XP, so any problems that might have been should be gone.

CrazyC0ffeeNov 22, 20153 votes

But none of the support items give BONUS AD so.....it's not helping with his ult scaling still.

Specter027Nov 22, 20152 votes

New support items aren't really slot/gold efficient for a manaless Jungler. I've toyed with them but they feel terrible and slow to me.

AeróNov 22, 20152 votes

He's right. I play lee a lot, and I feel lost without sightstone. He's fun but he's not easy.

Specter027Nov 22, 20152 votes

Yea, this is the truth. 3 wards on sightstone is barely enough, considering I want red trinket instead of yellow. As Lee with SS+Red trinket I can't establish much extra vision, because I need to save at least 2 of my SS charges for ward hops. I thought the new vision changes wouldn't be so bad, but I really hate the lack of SS charges when I build it, the odd timers on the trinket wards, the red lens changes and lack of a pink ward upgrade.

Also, item 3706 is just the best smite for ganking junglers, no exceptions.

LeeSin is really strong right now because the Jungle is a hard, poor and unenjoyable mess.

RenailleNov 21, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-11-21T20:55:39.112+0000)

He falls off because people somehow expect to do tons of damage.

He falls off because if he builds damage his teamfight is garbage.

AnidanNov 22, 20154 votes

And if he builds to teamfight he's going pretty much off of bases + Warrior (unless he gets fed). Plus there's his mechanical challenges when a teamfight rolls around. He falls off, just not in the conventional ways of a champion falling off.

BakedLotionNov 22, 20156 votes

{quoted}

He falls off because if he builds damage his teamfight is garbage.

cause a 515611156dmg targeted utility spell that stuns is garbage. or slows. or 500 gap closers. or enemy displacement into your team. or shields.

KaisadiIIaNov 22, 20157 votes

It's your word against the word of every pro that has ever existed. Lee Sin's teamfighting is horrible unless you are really ahead.

AaravosNov 21, 201510 votes

and a percentage of the target's max hp if the target connect with an enemy. Not even high. You forget his recent, necessary buff since he was weak before that.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/36357635592724233/A32679C5E8B2E28E91D9B7DC2950DC4260F88776/

Lady HammerlockNov 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

and a percentage of the target's max hp if the target connect with an enemy. Not even high. You forget his recent, necessary buff since he was weak before that.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/36357635592724233/A32679C5E8B2E28E91D9B7DC2950DC4260F88776/

bonus hp facepalm

My Waifu VanillaNov 23, 20152 votes

Except it doesnt do any more damage to the target if they hit more than one person. If you are going to be sarcastic and not helpful to a conversation get your facts right. The ulted person does damage to everyone else hit by the ultimate based on their hp. The ulted target gets hit for base+200% bonus AD and that is it.

Prospector PeteNov 21, 20158 votes

But we can't nerf Lee Sin! That's against the rules!

AeróNov 22, 20156 votes

Everyone says lee falls off. Not necessarily. It becomes very hard to scale into late game 5v5s as a damage lee. If he built full damage, he could devastate 1v1s or even 1v2s but all you have to do is group up and he will have a hard time going in. But there are other builds that help you scale really well. ive had great success with, the ad jg item, brutalizer, sighstone, boots, and two tank items.

KONO RUBICK DANov 21, 20155 votes

not even close of what he needs, NOT EVEN CLOSE

his 2 mini stuns on his ulti should be removed first, can't freaking understand why it has not only one but two

Ariel the CruelNov 22, 20151 votes

? He has a mini-*root that applies on activation. and his ult is a 2 second displacement (even if something gets in the way to stop your movement).

Bears Dont CareNov 22, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-11-22T01:38:15.768+0000)

? He has a mini-*root that applies on activation. and his ult is a 2 second displacement (even if something gets in the way to stop your movement).

It is not a root, it is a stun. It completely disables your abilities which roots do not do.

MohawkBirdNov 22, 20154 votes

[deleted]

Ariel the CruelNov 22, 20154 votes

He falls off because he builds tanky. If he builds damage, he suffers from glass cannon syndrome.

MohawkBirdNov 22, 20152 votes

[deleted]

RyzeReworkNov 22, 20152 votes

if he doesnt go for a one shot build his damange is horrible if u goes for a 1 shot build hes so squishy if u meet in the middle he does okay but hes still on the squishy side

BeatRushVIINov 23, 20153 votes

Doesn't it also do % health of kicked target? A lee kicked me (as 5k sejuani) into our carry and it legit did 75% of their hp.

Lee sin is one of those champions that won't ever be put into line because of his omni presence in the pro scene. He makes big plays and big plays are interesting to watch. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve some long over due nerfs, he shouldn't have the level of mobility, utility for his team and raw damage that he has, no one should;however, as riots favourite, all he ever gets, or ever will get are love taps.

aaronautumnNov 21, 20151 votes

i want to reduce it is base damage.

I Main SwainNov 21, 20152 votes

did you not see the vote for dat?

aaronautumnNov 21, 20151 votes

i c everything

I Main SwainNov 21, 20155 votes

Nasus i q everything

PoskeNov 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Main Swain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-21T20:20:04.753+0000)

did you not see the vote for dat?

He will get nerfed once they fix the snowball

Till then elise and lee sin are tier1

Ariel the CruelNov 22, 201512 votes

Lee has been T1 for most of his existence. Elise was nerfed because she was an oppressive jungler.

PoskeNov 22, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-22T01:30:22.087+0000)

Lee has been T1 for most of his existence. Elise was nerfed because she was an oppressive jungler.

Lee sin is honestly overated. Yes he is really good for PRO play or in really high elo but nowdays even below he is op due to Only early game matters meta

As for elise. What nerf? I have seen multiple people destroying games with her recently on top of destroying 1 myself She is the best jungler for early pressure atm

Ariel the CruelNov 22, 20153 votes

Lee sin is honestly overated.

He is and he isn't. The problem with lee sin is that he's not a YoloQ hero. However. He has more utility than Thresh, more damage than most champs early game, and more sustain than most junglers. and in coordinated teams, has huge play-making potential. However, his utility means little when trying to solo carry. His play potential is such that he alone decides the jungle meta most seasons. You can either survive him or your not seen in high level play. At lower levels of play, early jungle leads don't mean as much because the lanes are just as likely to throw. Because Lee has so much potential and so much pro play, people are constantly using him. Because his skill floor starts at the ceiling, most people fail. Miserably. This drags down his win rate significantly until you get what Lee Sin has: Huge power budget, trash win rate.

Lee Sin benefits from 2 things:

He has a huge fan base that absolutely flips shit when there's any prospect of getting nerf. Which has genuinely caused Riot to not nerf him.
The vast majority of people who play him. . . Can't. He gets by on the "low win rate" excuse because of how many people imitate the pros and end up feeding or don't know how to push the advantage he creates.

As for elise.

There was once a time where there existed only a trinity of jungles. Lee Sin, Vi, and Elise. The community warded off any Lee Sin changes. Vi's itemization got nerfed (if I recall correctly). Elise was straight-out gutted because she was too oppressive in the jungle. I believe this was back in S3; but don't quote me on that one.

Elise received buffs (not the least of which was her spiderlings growing brains) at the end of S5 which has catapulted her back into the spotlight.

RyzeReworkNov 22, 20154 votes

nov 19 lees sins winrate is at 46 percent.... why does that need nerfed?

lolptwoNov 22, 20151 votes

For a champion that is pretty much useless late game - there are much more important things that need to be fixed. Like making sure games make it to late game. Then you will notice Lee Sin isn't as strong as you believe him to be, he's fine where he is right now

Bears Dont CareNov 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

For a champion that is pretty much useless late game - there are much more important things that need to be fixed. Like making sure games make it to late game. Then you will notice Lee Sin isn't as strong as you believe him to be, he's fine where he is right now

Lee sin is known for being one of the strongest early game junglers with high utility late game. The heck you smoking?

[{quoted}](name=Teemo or Feedmo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i88eggsK,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2015-11-22T13:34:47.512+0000)

but most lee sins get 0 damage on their builds,so imo i think this is unnecessary.

Evelynn doesn't build damage anymore, but they gutted her damage anyway.