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Put Zed and Yasuo in the jungle

Spacesuit Spiff··4 votes·520 views

They get to exist, people don't have to lane against them.

I actually think they're neat champs if played well, LC$bigplays is a meme here but champs like that do have a place in the game. I don't play either of them, but clips on Random LoL Moments and similar showcase what I think champions should be: plan and execute some ridiculous moves where you either outsmart everyone or get deleted. Zed having the potential to win two duels at the same time on different sides of a wall is neat. Yasuo juking around on no health to eventually win a 1v2 is neat. Provided they aren't doing this easily and consistently, and that this is the reason people pick these champions.

Instead, these two get to be generally good picks even if you don't do anything clever with them. There's a lot of reasons, but the most obvious and obnoxious one is manaless waveclear. Supposedly high-skillcap champs were too hard to pick up, so they get to be lane bullies on top of everything else they were actually supposed to have, just so that people who don't put in the time to learn them properly can still do well. Zed I can kinda see being a lane bully, but Yasuo's entire kit screams "play defensively and get through laning so I can hit that midgame spike". Yasuo should have to use his kit to fight for CS, playing smart to not get crushed; he has a shield, the windwall, and dashes to minions, and having to utilize them to be able to farm without getting poked to death would be a lot more engaging than just killing the wave with Q and then easily winning trades.

I consider the issue with Yasuo and Zed to be an obvious case of the general direction league has gone the past couple years, being that the game has gotten simpler and less punishing. Go look at a guide from season 3, there'll be all sorts of small-scale advice that just doesn't apply anymore because for the most part the little things don't matter as much and the game is more about your larger strategy than minor tactics. It's similar to the point in Civ-type games where your empire is big enough that you put most of the production on autopilot and focus on the grand strategy. This kinda suits my playstyle if I'm being honest, but there are some cool things the game has lost over the years, and they've been replaced with high-skillcap champs getting fast manaless waveclear in the name of accessibility.

Accessibility is the problem here, so I'll bring in Lee. For the longest time he was the earlygame king who either made a bunch of clever plays and snowballed the game, or didn't do a whole lot outside of maybe a good ulti lategame. You'd see one and go "uhoh I hope this guy knows what he's doing", but this could be balanced because at worst, Lee was probably going to be useless and was relatively unlikely to feed anyone. High skillcap earlygame champions can have enough earlygame power to do okay early even if they "fail", and even if that "fail" to snowball ends up costing the game, it doesn't feel as bad as when your team's high skillcap champ gets crushed in lane. This is why Yasuo exists the way he does right now; originally he was a strong lategame champ with mediocre laning, but when he became popular it just wasn't fun for anyone when he got crushed in lane and stayed useless, so he lost some lategame power and in exchange became fairly hard to badly lose lane as.

That case being made, Yasuo and Zed should be niche junglers with specific strategic options, outclassed by generalists but utilized by skilled mains. Make Zed the new counterjungler: farm the enemy jungler and take control of the game, or get quickly outclassed by similar junglers that clear and scale better. Yasuo will be more of a Yi type, mediocre in the jungle but possibility for impact (wants to gank and countergank lanes with large waves, and does well in fights that go on enough for his Q3) but if he makes it through the early stages of the game he gets out of the jungle and gets to do Yasuo things like usual, and he gets some lategame power back. Nobody is stuck dealing with them to the same extent as a 1v1 lane, and mains get to have their fun.

tl;dr: these guys have the skillcap to work as second-tier junglers and it'd be less frustrating when they're on the enemy team. Tweak Zed and Yasuo so they can only jungle and everyone wins.

24 Comments

GULAG 4 U2 votes

So basically you're saying that it's a good idea to move these champions with no cc and strong way to gank in the jungle?

No

Anonagon1 votes

roaming from mid to gank translates almost one-to-one to ganking from jungle, and zed and yasuo are already have some great roams a lack of CC means literally nothing, unless your lanes also have no CC. plenty of champions have seen success in the jungle with minimal CC, and most jungle-based assassins and carries completely lack hard CC

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Except yasuo in a gank would be able to do legit nothing really. He would need to be able to hold on his tornado forever to be useful...

which isn't much better. His solution is shit. Final point.

Anonagon1 votes

Except Yasuo can ult off of ally knockups? And even without an ult Yasuo does bonkers damage? Are you forgetting that the person ganking can be the one who does the damage right? And that the laner could supply the CC? You know, as has been the successful strategy for millions of Shyvana and Yi games?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I do play yi and shyvana, but do you really think yasuo jungle without major changes to his kit will work?

Anonagon1 votes

I never said that it would work well, or that I agree with the OP and want these champions changed to junglers (though I have seen some jungle Yasuos in my time) I just needed to shut down your argument that junglers need CC, or even a strong ganking pattern Characters like Yi, Shyvana, and Graves are living testaments to the fact that even without CC, or even without red buff, you can still be a good jungler

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I cut you here. Shyvana and Yi are trash atm. Melee carries without utility like Yasuo and Fiora are trash. And since both of them have shit cc they also do nothing.

And you would need to remove yasuo's utility and shit over his e and massively buff his passive and stats if you want to see him jungle.

Of all the skirmisher you see, only Yasuo, fiora and ekko see real play. Yi doesn't because he does nothing other than damage and run quick. Trynd is a shitty yasuo atm. Aatrox has some cc but is a ball with no stats unlike how mordekaiser is a ball of stats with no utility.

Anonagon1 votes

-> Shyvana trash you're wrong on that one

-> melee carries without utility are trash -> Yasuo Yasuo has the most utility of all the melee carries, and last patch he was the strongest champion in the game by a country mile

and once again, I never said I wanted to see Yasuo as a jungler all I said is that you are wrong if you think junglers need CC

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Yes junglers need cc. Master yi is trash. Shyvana is trash. It's called reality. You want to gank? You need cc. THere's a reason why master yi's ganks aren't strong, he relies purely on damage. Same for shyvana. That's why they AFK farm. They aren't heavy gankers like kha'zix or leesin.

Even when they were strong (sated) they spent the entire first 15 minutes farming, hence afk jungling.

The reason why yasuo isn't trash is simple. He has strong utility. Unlike Yi or Tryndamere.

Anonagon1 votes

Shyvana is not trash and if you genuinely believe that you are delusional. Also don't say characters can't gank without CC then immediately list two champions whose only form of CC on their base kits is incredibly light slows. That's so contradictory its unbelievable. Yes, Shyvana and Yi's ganks are weak, but you literally listed two more champions that prove my point that hard CC is not required to jungle.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Then you can't help your lanes if you can't gank well. Conclusion? Jungler is trash. There's a reason why lee sin is always played, it's because his fucking blind ass does everything and anything.

takeZOOOOOO1 votes

{quoted}

Except Yasuo can ult off of ally knockups? And even without an ult Yasuo does bonkers damage? Are you forgetting that the person ganking can be the one who does the damage right? And that the laner could supply the CC? You know, as has been the successful strategy for millions of Shyvana and Yi games?

So you only gank after 6? Yep that's a noob jungler

Anonagon1 votes

where did you get this idea? can you even read?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Because you'll do jackshit without your ult and knockup (if you can even hold on to it). This idea is trash.

Anonagon1 votes

I'M NOT THE GUY SAYING YASUO SHOULD BE A JUNGLER I'M LITERALLY JUST HERE TO GET PEOPLE TO REALIZE THAT HARD CC IS NOT A REQUIREMENT TO BE A JUNGLER

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I said op's idea is stupid. You need hard cc to be a decent jungler. You don't need it to be a half assed jungler.

Only exception is kha'zix because his damage and slows plus his jump and 1v1 potential are thru the roof.

takeZOOOOOO1 votes

"Except yasuo can ult of ally knock ups?" What is this supposed to mean then?

Anonagon1 votes

That was a response to the idea that Yasuo would "need to hold his tornado forever to be useful in ganks" Even if he couldn't ult off of allied knockups, Yasuo would still be useful in ganks, because CC isn't required to gank effectively.

I really like how you ignored the other two lines of the post, both of which pertain to the idea that junglers can gank without CC. I am not, in fact, a noob jungler; I climbed to platinum last season on the back of my Amumu, and this season my most successful champion has been Shyvana (who, by the way, is very capable of ganking before level 6, even without red buff).

takeZOOOOOO1 votes

well u didnt consider pre 6 ganks i kinda thought that was the whole point but i didnt read correctly, mb sorry faMalam

GULAG 4 U1 votes

The only junglers that only gank after six are Yi, warick (obv reasons) and shyvana. But to compensate their clear is realy good.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Zed was meant to be a jungler and was for a time, buuut Riot decided to nerf the shit out of Shadow Slash(E) and since most people aren't masochistic, they stopped playing him there.

Ralanr1 votes

I could see it, at least thematically.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Being a jungler? Myah.

The point stands Rito fucked up nerfing Shadow Slash that much, if they wanted him to be a jungler.

Enosetc1 votes

the last champ people didn't want to lane against that was moved to the jungle is nidalee

i'm not sure this is the best move

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