Stop Before It's Too Late

9L9L9L9L9L9L9L·Apr 20, 2016·397 votes·12,459 views

Please revert the Viktor changes because if you go through with this, Viktor will become the clunkiest Mage when the Mage Update goes live.

I got my source from surrenderat20.net

148 Comments

333lomApr 20, 201693 votes

Upvote this so Riot can see, people have already played him on PBE and say he feels awfully clunky and counter-intuitive with these changes.

Why are they increasing the importance of the point-and-click Q and decreasing the importance of his most iconic and hardest to land E, the laser. Plus, the nonexistent Ult between the super-distanced ticks sounds super weird.

LA LostyApr 20, 201613 votes

Yeah, Viktors burst will be lowered a ton with those changes, and even though he might deal more damage over time, it will be extremely easy to avoid it, since the delay on the 2nd part of his primary ability (E) has been made alot bigger, and the delay between his ultimate ticks aswell. Now you only deal damage if they stand still and tank the entire thing. I guess this could have bigger impact in teamfights, but it sure as hell would hurt his laningphase a hell of a lot.

SpecterVonBarenApr 21, 20169 votes

I actually like the idea of them making his ult deal more of its damage from the actual storm effect and not the initial cast but that 2 second tick for a dot sounds really clunky.

Voluug13Apr 21, 201610 votes

Because Riot doesnt like ''passive'' (lol) wavecleaning.

Viktor's E was better that Zed at pushing, and that had to go.

AakeshApr 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Because Riot doesnt like ''passive'' (lol) wavecleaning.

Viktor's E was better that Zed at pushing, and that had to go.

Passive wavcleaning what Zed and lux do 90% of the time

Voluug13Apr 21, 20167 votes

''Passive'' is any lane where Zed isnt actively winning.

Remember when Riot called Athene's ''passive'' a couple of years ago when it was nerfed like 3 times in a row? Taking in count Athene's allowed a multitude of mages to actually lane (instead of turtling with a tear and sustain) against Zed/Kata/Akali/Yasuo, Riot's definition of ''passive'' is reaaaaally weird.

TeklmApr 21, 201624 votes

His waveclear will be insane with this. Assuming both hits, it's a net damage buff and by quite a large margin. Too bad the only thing you'll ever hit is minions, so yeah. Viktor will now waveclear under turret and never interact because attempting to poke is a waste of mana. Honestly, the worst part about this is I don't even think he'll be weak, just fucking boring to play.

ArcyvilkApr 20, 201637 votes

Edit: at the end of the post are some PBE videos

These changes make no sense*, especially when paired with the previous 6.2 nerfs to his early game waveclear.

Everything in his kit is now greatly delayed. On top of W arming time and his autoattack range not matching the Q range causing the delay, now we have twice as long time between the secondary E explosion and ult ticking 4.6 times less often.

Due to W delay, he will have an extremly hard time applying the secondary damage unless he gets the setup from his teammates. The only way he can make it work himself is buying Rylai - to make secondary E hit even possible - but at the same time the synergy with ult is gone due to lower tick ratio (slow lasts 1s, damage is applied once 2s), therefore greatly lowering team utility.

Both E and R secondary damage instances got their damage buffed, but let's be honest - given how mobile majority of meta champions is, who is going to just stay in place and wait to be hit by the goddamn 1.25 second delayed laser explosion!? Probably only goddamn minions or 200 ping Kog'Maw.

Riot, in 6.2 patch you've nerfed Viktor's early game waveclear. Now, with these new ratios, it is back. He can even have -20 AP at level 9, he will oneshot caster minions anyway. Why do you force him to PvE now then? Why make him a second Orianna, as a champion that relies heavily on wombo combo to work? Why do you increase his clunkiness even though the major point of his first, S4 rework, was to elliminate that.

And the worst part is that his damage got actually buffed so if we complain about all the clunkiness added to his kit, you can just say "But these changes are actually pure buffs, just look at numbers!". Pity that numbers aren't everything.

*EDIT1: When I shook all the salt off me I realised these changes are probably aimed at enabling him to choose between Q and E max, and specifically, between Q focused tanky skirmisher mage and E focused glass cannon teamfight monster. Q no longer scales with levels, E's damage got buffed so it can be a waveclear tool even when not maxed, Q shield scaling with mana... It actually makes sense, and while it makes me less salty because it opens new opportunities for Viktor, I am still not happy with the changes since it was The Laser that attracted me to champion and I greatly enjoy his current playstyle. Tanky toplane Viktor being viable would make me happy, but not for such cost.

EDIT2: I toyed with him a bit on the PBE. He is so clunky now, that it feels like I had constant lags (and yes, I play a lot on PBE so I am able to differentiate actual lags caused by high ping from champion's clunkiness). It was a terrible experience. If anyone is interested how significant the delay on his lazor is, have this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al-NV58KHiY

And this is a test regarding all the delays existing in his kit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmToemmkLh4

And this is /r/viktormains thread I've made with calculations, math and analysis behind his changes.

Kuronok2Apr 21, 20162 votes

Of course it feels you are lagging, you are playing with 200+ ping, WTF were you expecting? PBE is always like that.

Voluug13Apr 21, 20163 votes

He means lag lag not just a bit of delay. 200 someting ping is still playable.

ScramrailApr 21, 201612 votes

I feel like its pretty telling when the delayed E damage isn't even landable on fucking bots, lol.

GalewingsApr 20, 201626 votes

You know I've forced myself through this season. It's just been an absolute abomination in terms of balance,and on many other things like dynamic queue and riot treating us like we are all mentally challenged idiots. Viktor has been my favorite champion since the day I picked him up over a year ago. Has anyone else gotten that feeling of just clicking with a champion? It's what happened to me when I first tried him out.

I was already disgusted at his earlier nerfs which were completely unneeded (yeah let's nerf the 47% winrate champ when these Ahri fanservice whores Lux had been at 54% winrate for over a year) but riot forced it in because Viktor stalled out games with his solid wave clear and Riot want to enforce faster games so that boring ass lcs games wouldn't last 50 minutes all the time.

If these changes go through as they are I will try them, but as it is I can already see that what the op is telling is what Viktor is going to become: A clunky as fuck champion that has already been nerfed to the ground. I will test it out extensively, and if I feel like it's clunky I will just quit this game. I've put up with a lot of things before but I will not stand for my favorite champion getting the fun factor in him get drained straight out. I'll just stop playing everyday and simply play an aram or two once a month with friends.

I had already been considering quitting the game because of all the bullshit this so called "balance team" has been adding into the game but if my favorite champion gets ruined just for the fucking sake of changing things then I'll just give up on this game.

PheronApr 21, 20163 votes

I know what you feel, Viktor is my most played champ overall (closely followed by Leona) since his very release and I'm about to cry with this 'update'... We must be strong, mate...

Spaceman5pffApr 21, 20162 votes

Viktor recently became one of the champs that they were forced to rebalance because of pro play :(

I was head over heels for gnar on release, but then when they had to nerf mini to shit because of LCS, I lost some of the magic... To be fair, I liked to go Gnar item 3078 item 3153 item 3143 item 3156 So.....

PailKnightApr 20, 201619 votes

Not again. I'm still recovering from them taking the burn from his death ray. Q_Q

The HexmageApr 21, 20164 votes

As a main Viktor since season 3 I prefer Pre-rework Viktor than PBE Viktor (And maybe Post-rework Viktor (I miss my ult with silence T.T)).

ZeeWolfZApr 21, 201619 votes

Holy fuck viktor will be useless as Fuck. 1.25 seconds afterpop of E? Lmao. Who the fuck thought it was a good idea.

OrbitUtmostApr 20, 201613 votes

This feels like a "it'll be so cool to land this combo" and then he just doesn't do enough outside of the perfect scenario. Kinda like where gnar is right now.

BisaknospApr 20, 20164 votes

{quoted}

This feels like a "it'll be so cool to land this combo" and then he just doesn't do enough outside of the perfect scenario. Kinda like where gnar is right now.

ROFLMAO you are so right

Crayon PuppetApr 21, 201612 votes

Why would they ruin the one spell that people are actually happy with on his kit

Adolf Hit RApr 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crayon Puppet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QQzByXj0,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2016-04-21T04:25:46.968+0000)

Why would they ruin the one spell that people are actually happy with on his kit

Death ray is Viktor. It's his most unique ability, one of the biggest displays of skill in his kit, and the thing that feels the best to use.

And now it's completely fucking worthless. yay.

AuryielApr 21, 201611 votes

2 seconds between ult ticks

wat

just

wat

Arsenic SulfurApr 21, 20168 votes

To make it feel like it has impact. Because currently it pops then it kinda does nothing unless they stand in it the entire time. It still does damage, but it didn't feel like it.

AuryielApr 21, 20165 votes

I assure you, when you build Rylai's you feel the fucking impact

Burnt LightApr 20, 201610 votes

Lol, nerf Viktor of all mages?

Meanwhile, this bitch Lux and rushed item 3285 make early and mid game absolute cancer.

NefasApr 20, 20169 votes

Riot nerfs Vik for his waveclear earlier this season - here they massively buff his waveclear while gutting any poke he has.

Vik will only be a farm bot if these changes go through because E will do so little compared to live. On live E is a decently difficult skill shot with a moderate chance of getting the explosion proc (fairly easy to get with rylai's admittedly). This change will destroy any shot of getting the explosion proc outside of someone trapped in W, which remains unchanged and pretty much only usable on someone who is already CC'd or who is diving you.

The mana changes to shield will pretty much be unnoticeable since you can't afford to put money into mana items with damage so gimped and the hexcore mana nerfs remaining.

Ult doing nothing at all for such long periods of time is a stupid idea, even if they want to backload more of the damage, which I would be okay with.

Riot has no idea what they are doing with Vik at all.

AxxukaApr 20, 20169 votes

Look what happened when we warned them for 2 weeks that XinZhao would be broken OP with the free damage buff they gave him when Devourer and Guinso were already there.

They didn't listen, he's still broken OP and God-Tier jungle since then.

DirkTarTarApr 21, 20167 votes

Please no... They are trying to push him into a "skirmisher" position that they kept tagging him with over the past year. Placing less and less emphasis on the power of his E and more on the "trading potential" of his Q.

The problem is... HIS Q IS GARBAGE FOR TRADING AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

In Riot's quest for finding the individual identities for each mid laner they are steam rolling over Viktor's most recognized skill -- DEATH RAY. He has received nerf after nerf that has made him less and less playable in past and current metas even with his previous rework to his passive, which ALSO nerfed his E and R and buffed his Q.

As a Viktor main from day 1 release I can say that I am extremely displeased with these changes as it strips Viktor's identity away to make room for an altruistic but naive vision of a Skirmishing Mid-Range Mage. Pushing him towards the new Catalyst and Rod of Ages will completely wreck him as a somewhat viable mage and turn him into a mediocre meat shield that deals moderate AP DPS with a strong AoE stun/zoning tool that has become easier to walk out of.

The damage on his E is being dropped by 20% of the ratio and the secondary explosion now occurs only a fraction of a second longer than DOUBLE the normal time of .6 seconds (which was already awkward to use). Partially, this is to try to prevent Viktor from auto-clearing waves and double tapping pesky hoes. BUT mostly this is to distribute power into his Q which was already only good after Sheen/Lich Bane WHICH WERE ONLY EVEN MODERATELY DECENT IF HE ACTUALLY HAD ABILITY POWER TO MAKE USE OF IT. The ratio on his Q was doubled, cooldown reduced across the board, shield increased to scale off mana, and the flat damage increased by 20-40 at all levels.

tl;dr DO NOT FORCE THIS "REWORK" LIKE YOU DID WITH THE UNNECESSARY KASSADIN NERFS THAT YOU EVENTUALLY REVERTED.

JorenciceApr 21, 20161 votes

Lol. I know a assassian challenger main who plays Victor now and then and he maxs Q first and has always said 8ts his best skill.

I mean cmon great damage, speed boost and a shield all in 1 skill.

DirkTarTarApr 21, 20164 votes

Neat.

The damage is only good with the AA followup, the 30% speed boost is pretty good providing you don't just get, you know... CC'd, but the shield becomes nearly completely useless after auto attacks deal enough damage to go straight through it.

My only real beef is with the shield... which is why it is terrible to pile all the stats onto this ability as a "trading skill."

The shield is 30-110 + 20% AP. 100 AP = +20 300 AP = +60 500 AP = +100 1000 AP = +200

At most the shield will mitigate 310 damage with 1000 ability power.

I get that with full CDR you are looking at about a 2.4 second cooldown on your Q, able to reduce most damage sources by 210-310 maximum. Yeah I guess that is pretty cool, especially considering that at that point the top laner is dealing almost as much damage as your shield can take on a single auto attack. ADCs and assassins certainly shred straight through that shield as if it was nothing.

The current change on the PBE makes it more beneficial for you to stack mana and it does kind of help achieve your 310 maximum without having to power farm or be super far ahead to get 1000 AP.

8% max mana + 15% of AP is pretty neat I guess. 1174 Base Max Mana = 93.92 Hex Core --Perfect +450 mana = 36 --MK2 +360 mana = 28.8 --MK1 +270 mana = 21.6 --Reg +180 mana = 14.4 500 AP = 75 700 AP = 105 1000 AP = 150

Assuming 500 AP, having the Perfect Hex Core, and being level 18 you are looking at a shield of 204.92. Opposed to 210 with the same construction previously mentioned. The difference is only 5 damage... LESS. Sounds like a super huge buff to me.

So let's emphasize what it would take for the shield to hit or break the 310 maximum. Every 1000 extra mana at this point is going to give you 80 extra shield. Not terrible. A minimum of 1000 extra mana and 200 extra ability power are needed to break your previous maximum of 310 shield to a whopping 314.92, which is better than having to hit 1000 AP to even make that achievable. This would be doable through AA Staff full charged plus some other small item for the AP bump or Lich Bane (250) + RoA (400) +350 mana from some other source (probably one of the new items). So your build is:

Perfect Hex Core > Boots > AA Staff > Rabadon's Deathcap > Lich Bane > 1 Other Item You have very little survivability but your shield is beefy and your damage is decent with 700 AP. You still have space for 1 item to give you a little extra AP or an extra second or two in the fight... because you are basically a glass cannon.
Perfect Hex Core > Boots > RoA > Lich Bane > New Rocket Belt > Rabadon's Deathcap You will make the AP cut, probably the mana cut, be a little beefier with health stacking, but you will have no resistances. Once again, your abilities do a little more damage, but that 20% cut from your E and massive delay on your R's damage is gonna hurt. Just hope you can land a Q + AA before you end up dead. Good luck with that 350 shield every 2.4 seconds. I hope it stops the one auto attack that would end your life.

On the plus side, with 4000 EXTRA MANA and 700 AP your shield is 554.92.

The potential of the shield has been buffed, but you have to stack A LOT of mana and a decent amount of ability power to achieve what was only possible at the game's overtime phase, which is harder to get to with the changes to the game pacing.

SaltyToplaneGoatApr 20, 20165 votes

It seems they want to force him to use his W more. Oh, and the mana scaling on the shield might actually make sense as mages are supposed to get more mana now...

Well, with all the item changes it makes it kinda tricky to judge how scaling changes might affect the overall damage output.

The main problem I see with this: His own hard cc spell that he needs to lock people in E and R is just... too lackluster. I can see their logic there. Viktor just normal hitting you -> lame. Viktor getting his combo off while you are CCed -> thousand years of pain. As long they give the W a buff I could see this working. But in the current form... not so much...

Gated D LatchApr 21, 20165 votes

I love playing Viktor ...

If this passes pbe.... I probably won't be playing him anymore item 3070

46104328_DELApr 21, 20161 votes

Welcome to our world. Skarner Poppy Taric

NineTailedMysticApr 21, 20166 votes

New Taric and Poppy are good wtf.

WarlockLawApr 21, 20164 votes

Viktor has always had the indentity of a burst/zone control mage. Why the fuck are they making him a dot mage/lich bane user

ScramrailApr 21, 20164 votes

What the fuck kind of role will Viktor fit in now? He cant wave clear, he cant burst, he cant poke, and he doesn't have effective zone control. Those pretty new mage sub classes seem pretty worthless if youre going to be reworking mages to not fit into any of them.

These changes, shifting so much power to his Q, are going to make him an extremely risky pick because of how close you need to be to enemies in order to deal respectable damage. Are they trying to turn him into some sort of Riven-esque mage? Are they trying to create a new playstyle of bruiser-mages?

Im not really sure what their plan is here, but these changes are fucking bullshit.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 20, 20163 votes

idk what they are trying to do with him but it seems as if its too late.

TheSingularityApr 21, 20163 votes

I miss my death ray! and augment death. The new death ray is like, dildo ray with a lil vibration at the end. My fave part, landing a pretty max range death ray, as every single one was a fluke, but felt great. Now it just point click damage...... His new death ray is the reason there isn't any viktor in my match history. How about we give viktor his old death ray back? and put more emphasis on it*[slayer-jinx-wink]*

Rengar Top LaneApr 21, 20163 votes

Welcome to Clunkyville! Population, many!

NαgmaApr 21, 20163 votes

They wont , and you know why ? because ... VIKTOR IS NOT RIVEN OR LEE SIN AHAH

and btw i do think these change sucks , but its sad that riot wont revert it because of the popularity of the champion .

Alpha Max SApr 21, 20163 votes

as a viktor main with over 500games on 2 accounts im just like whyyyyyy item 3070 rip viktor 2k16 Viktor

PalCorgApr 21, 20163 votes

According to calculations from a thread over on reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/r/viktormains/comments/4frhst/math_behind_viktor_pbe_changes_calculations_and/ ), Even if you max Q first, Viktor's literally always going to do less damage with these changes, unless he lands the second E which can be walked out of easily and is extremely unreliable, let alone vs champs who're already speedier or mobile, ala Ahri or Fizz or such. So, basically, Viktor's on his way from being one of the highest upfront burst champs to one with clunky delays all over his AOE non-point-click spells. Here's to hoping these don't go through. :(

RandomoniumApr 21, 20163 votes

What I love most of all is that they didn't even include the Viktor changes in the huge official mage update spotlight that they just released, they snuck the changes onto the PBE and hoped no one would notice.

ArcticahhApr 21, 20162 votes

Rip my Elo after this game update. ;_;

http://puu.sh/oqmQg/365c5b0ea7.jpg

Riot just keep your hands off Viktor, PLEASE!. Or drop the E delay to at least 0.5

9L9L9L9L9L9L9LApr 21, 20162 votes

Holy shit, I didn't expect this post to get a lot of attention

shyvApr 21, 20162 votes

that dramatic clickbait title

Tough GuyApr 21, 20161 votes

Because his wave clear is as good as most mages and can suppress zed, he all of a sudden require a nerf? I thought this was a MAGE patch.

Ulquiorra995Apr 21, 20162 votes

They seem to turn to his wave clear as his focus point actually...

...by giving him high damage with delays so horrendous that minions will be the only thing he is able to kill.

Classic Rito. ~~Fixing~~ destroying what wasn't broken in the first place.

ParrrlayzerApr 21, 20161 votes

If anything, just revert the delay on his E. That alone will be good enough for me. I don't care what number the 2nd deathray is. With such a huge delay it doesn't even matter, because you will NEVER EVER hit it without a rylais. ok maybe in bronze 5.

HazyCloud7Apr 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If anything, just revert the delay on his E. That alone will be good enough for me. I don't care what number the 2nd deathray is. With such a huge delay it doesn't even matter, because you will NEVER EVER hit it without a rylais. ok maybe in bronze 5.

You will actually never hit it even with Rylais, I've seen PBE footage and even with rylais people can walk right out of it.

An extra ~10% AP ratio and some extra base damage is completely worthless on the death ray if you can't hit anyone with it. These changes are complete trash.