@Meddler is it a possible to see some of cancelled champs to somewhat make it back into the game?

Yi Bencheikh·Sep 19, 2016·9 votes·20,701 views

just asking cause there were some of the cancelled champs that not even part of them made it succesfully into the game ( atleast that's what i know ) and some were ... i can't say cancelled , like Seth the sand mage he was turned into what is known now as that's like a rework before the champion is even released also for example : Kadarin the champ made by make a wish guy , the champ was actually made but never made it into the game because his kit was too op , but did riot use the ideas of his abilities on the champs that was made after him ? thanks [slayer-jinx-wink]

41 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 19, 201610 votes

We'll often reuse abilities that were good, but didn't work on one champ, on another. We'll sometimes also go back to an idea we've tried to make previously but haven't been able to find the right version of. Kled for example is kind of the progression of a character we called 'Swordle', a Yordle with a sword and a really exaggerated personality from years ago who didn't work out at the time.

There are a lot of ideas that also just don't hit the mark for one reason or another that we don't go back to. Sometimes things don't work as well in game as you hoped on paper, sometimes we'll conclude there's too much overlap with an existing champion, sometimes a concept just doesn't resonate with the players who should be its audience.

RiotMeddlerSep 19, 201623 votes

Oh, one point of followup. Something we will be able to do at some point though is give you folks some insight into what some champions looked like during their development (somewhat different abilities etc). Currently working on a dev blog about that with some videos of older prototypes, guess it might be ready sometime next month or so.

DecritSep 19, 20166 votes

waiting. for. it.

Photos of GhostsSep 19, 20162 votes

2haipu

Yi BencheikhSep 19, 20161 votes

waiting for it

VvVVvVSep 20, 20161 votes

thats going to be awesome.

Linna ExcelSep 20, 20161 votes

sometimes we'll conclude there's too much overlap with an existing champion

How bad is this really? I mean I wouldn't mind two champs with similar thematics but different gameplays. I also wouldn't mind two champs with similar gameplays but different themes. If they had different aspects highlighted or different personalities, I might even be okay with two champs that overlap both in theme and gameplay.

What's an example of acceptable overlap versus something that's an issue from riot's perspective?

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 20, 20162 votes

What about looks for canceled Champs being used for a skin line? Just kind of a fun idea.

Ie I think ao shin would legit make a great skin for aurelion sol with hurricane and lightning effects instead of galaxy effects or whatever

Lost RSep 19, 20163 votes

As a content creator myself, I can tell you that not every idea is or should be brought to fruition. They were rejected for a reason, not for shits and giggles. People nearly committed ritualistic suicide over Ao Shin turning into Aurelion Sol, not realizing that this sort of thing happens literally ALL THE TIME. Ideas change over time; Riot just made the mistake of revealing what's behind the curtain to people who don't understand.

DecritSep 20, 20161 votes

I try to do games for funsies, mostly board games, card games or manuals ( not that i ever managed to end a project :P ) and i have a folder ordered as the best i can with all the previous versions and all the stuff that got removed or not.

And holy hell, if that shit is amatorial i wonder how it is a professional one @_@ even if with better tools about storing info.

Lost RSep 20, 20162 votes

Since I started publishing stories online, I have over 150 published stories, not including the artwork I've done, and not including rewrites of older stories or drafts, and not including the stuff I wrote on physical media or what I had written during my teenage years, before coming to the internet. I moved my stuff to Googledocs just in case I have another drive crash, and the list of drafts and older material is MASSIVE; it overshadows the things I DID complete.

DecritSep 20, 20161 votes

Lol, i knew what i was getting into when doing that. I can barely imagine the work that must be done to actually complete something in a refined and shareable way, but i could "sense" the proportions somehow. University getting into the way and friends/collaborators losing intrest or moving away also did not help :\ i find myself often thinking over and over the same thing just to apply a change that can be fondamental, but that could get easily trashed away by bigger sweeping changes. And still i try to document and reorder everything, because even thought i do not manage to end anything i want to see the development, what i changed and what i renounced to and why.

I won' t ask what you do - if you did not say it already there' s a reason behind that and i respect it - just know that there is someone here that understands ( welp, a smuch as i can get to glimpse) and that appreciates your kind of work :)

Lost RSep 20, 20162 votes

Some things I just begin and forget about for months before I come back to it and actually finish it. Other things have either small or big issues that I was never able to get around. One current project of mine started off as Yu Yu Hakusho fanfiction, but then it turned into its own thing once I realized that the Yu Yu Hakusho part was only a very small part. Now I have to comb through everything I've written and figure out what will stay and what will go.

I also have some game design documents that, again, are largely unfinished because I don't have the resources to begin making stuff, or because I'd never be able to actually make them. One is a design document for a remake of SaGa Frontier, an old PS1 game by Squaresoft that was released very much unfinished. No way would a remake for THAT ever happen, but I wrote the document back in 2011 for shits and giggles.

It doesn't help that I work at a janky pace because this is all a hobby, and there's no real career or financial incentive to have me muscle through the Writer's Block.

Honestly, the only motivation I can give you is this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

RiotMeddlerSep 20, 20163 votes

Thankfully there are companies that make software packages (version control/management software) that handle keeping track of different versions, file history etc. There's still some challenge to finding old stuff, especially since in our case we also changed software packages about 5 years back, the archival process is pretty automated overall though.

DecritSep 20, 20161 votes

Should i try some, even thought at the moment i manage with Google Drive ( which is not very useful while offline). Still, pretty new things to explore ^_^

The only thing i need now is a picture of a cat writing on a keyboard with the caption "start writing on digital" so i can stop being a moron that pencils stuff so i am forced to rewrite them elsewere :P

yeah, scanning does not count

OctaviaSep 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Thankfully there are companies that make software packages (version control/management software) that handle keeping track of different versions, file history etc. There's still some challenge to finding old stuff, especially since in our case we also changed software packages about 5 years back, the archival process is pretty automated overall though.

meddler in this video (preseason 3)

https://youtu.be/bj0HlZWjcAQ?t=8m15s

ive always wondered what that item was that Warwick had, ryze has an "arcane helix", but nobody ever mentioned what the strange Warwick item was, any ideas? The icon looks like one of Averdrian's abilities except it's red

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/File:Averdrian_Detonate.jpg

in fact that's exactly what it is

iamleburkSep 20, 20161 votes

Me and my friends love to do "Mods" to our boardgames where we try to balance it or add some crazy shit. I think our risk game is the best one so far.

DecritSep 20, 20161 votes

That' s a lot cool too. I use dto mod many of my games too with my friends, but due time many moved over :c

I still have friends to play board games with, but are less intrested about that.

I homebrewed the hell out of pokémon master trainer, and proposed varius changes to the world of warcraft boar dgame too to make it run smoother.

iamleburkSep 26, 20162 votes

Some groups never grow out of boardgames, even in college we just turn them into drinking games and then no one is getting bored :D

Radnar the boldSep 19, 20162 votes

On some of the champ lol wiki pages (link here http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Champion_Skins_and_Trivia) The trivia sometimes says how some champs have leftovers pieces from other champs.

RiotMeddlerSep 19, 201610 votes

The Wiki there does have some interesting history on some cancelled concepts. It's also got some stuff that's just pure speculation though. Looking at Gavid's page for example there's the comment that 'Zyra closely mirrors Gavid's abilities and thematic' which isn't accurate. To the best of my knowledge the gameplay designers working on Zyra never even played Gavid's kit let alone decided to take any abilities from it.

Solidair3Sep 19, 20161 votes

Can you tell us anything about Gavid, then? Or is his thing still in the "box of things we might use in the future"?

Meep ManSep 19, 20161 votes

Well, from Maokai, to Zyra, to the upcoming Ivern, I find it hard to believe that Gavid hasn't shown up a TINY bit in any of those champions' personalities, appearances, or kits.

DecritSep 19, 20162 votes

... or Gavid was just so generic that you could see it everywhere, including under your feet :P

RiotMeddlerSep 20, 20163 votes

I've never personally seen any of the details about him. He's an old enough concept that it's really hard to go back through our archived stuff to track him down. Anything during the last 5 years is usually moderately easy to check out, before that's a lot harder (we swapped to a different software package for tracking files basically around that point).

AxxukaSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I've never personally seen any of the details about him. He's an old enough concept that it's really hard to go back through our archived stuff to track him down. Anything during the last 5 years is usually moderately easy to check out, before that's a lot harder (we swapped to a different software package for tracking files basically around that point).

Can we know other tidbits we NEVER heard of ?

Example of what we heard :

Jhin release skin was his initial concept

Gnar had Tahm Kench Devour

The Tunnel maker yordle obviously been canceled and his theme given to Rek'sai.

Also if skills from the cancelled champs (Omen, Gavid, Tabu, Averdrian) actually made it into another champ since those are well known cancelled champions.

Or basically just show a cancelled champion that became something else ? (How did Ao shin look like in game before he became aurelion ? Kit, animation etc)

Just throwing suggestions :)

RiotMeddlerSep 20, 201620 votes

A few off the top of the head (apologies if we've already talked about some of these).

The art that looked a lot like Jhin's release release skin was actually the same art we started with for Kindred's concept too. They were originally a single bounty hunter (gender undefined) who collected bounties, rather than an embodiment of death.
Ao Shin never had a proper in game model. We did some prototyping on kits for him, that was just using the old SR dragon with its wings removed though (wings removed to make it extra obvious it was something different). It bobbed up and down in a cute, if goofy, way.
One of Lucian's first prototype kits had an ammo system (like Graves and Jhin now use). The idea showed some promise, it didn't fit as well with the constantly moving, nimble, rapid firing vibe we wanted to hit on for Lucian though, so it got shelved for quite a while.
Bard's Q at one point was a similar ability to Taliyah's Q (mini Lucian ult with a bit of a rhythm to it). In his case the hits weren't AOE, but if they all landed the target got stunned.
An early version of Jayce could place Sensor Beacons around the map. They worked kind of like Rek'Sai's tremor Sense, though had a smaller range and limited lifespan. They weren't particularly useful, but were a lot of fun to play around with.
For the upcoming Rengar rework one of the Bonetooth Necklace versions we tried was a ward that destroyed other wards that were really near it's location (a predatory ward if you will). The idea showed some potential, it was overkill on Rengar though (he doesn't need additional ability to get onto targets unseen). Thematically it also felt a bit weird on him - general feedback was it felt more like a hextech effect (signal jammer or something) than a mechanical trap like Rengar would use.

BellowsSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A few off the top of the head (apologies if we've already talked about some of these).

The art that looked a lot like Jhin's release release skin was actually the same art we started with for Kindred's concept too. They were originally a single bounty hunter (gender undefined) who collected bounties, rather than an embodiment of death.

Ao Shin never had a proper in game model. We did some prototyping on kits for him, that was just using the old SR dragon with its wings removed though (wings removed to make it extra obvious it was something different). It bobbed up and down in a cute, if goofy, way.

One of Lucian's first prototype kits had an ammo system (like Graves and Jhin now use). The idea showed some promise, it didn't fit as well with the constantly moving, nimble, rapid firing vibe we wanted to hit on for Lucian though, so it got shelved for quite a while.

Bard's Q at one point was a similar ability to Taliyah's Q (mini Lucian ult with a bit of a rhythm to it). In his case the hits weren't AOE, but if they all landed the target got stunned.

An early version of Jayce could place Sensor Beacons around the map. They worked kind of like Rek'Sai's tremor Sense, though had a smaller range and limited lifespan. They weren't particularly useful, but were a lot of fun to play around with.

For the upcoming Rengar rework one of the Bonetooth Necklace versions we tried was a ward that destroyed other wards that were really near it's location (a predatory ward if you will). The idea showed some potential, it was overkill on Rengar though (he doesn't need additional ability to get onto targets unseen). Thematically it also felt a bit weird on him - general feedback was it felt more like a hextech effect (signal jammer or something) than a mechanical trap like Rengar would use.

PLEASE OH WISE MEDDLER! FROMA RENGAR JUNGLE MAIN! Tell All that you are allowed to about the rengar rework, im deathly scared.....

AxxukaSep 20, 20164 votes

Exactly the kind of stuff that I wished to hear of ! Expected them to be inserted into the blog and not told like that in such a short time, thanks alot !

Really hope we can hear more of these into the future, not just the new champs (Being done already ! Heard alot with Taliyah), but also as a retrospective for older champs when the data is not too hard to get... Just like you did with Jayce ! Telling if a skill got moved unto a new champ (Bard Prototype being reworked into a Taliyah Q) is also nice. It's great to think ''What could that champ have looked like and what kind kit could he've had if they didn't make X choice ?''

I know it's surely limited due to some skills being actually being used on champs coming soon cough Caitlyn bush-making finally coming as a skill on Ivern cough, but it could always become a DevBlog or part of a DevBlog ?

And yeah, those infos were all new (at least for me and I stalk you and Katey alot, in a good way :D). I knew Jhin and Kindred shared the same bounty/Death theme at first but the info about starting from the same concept is totally new.

And again, thanks alot ! Really appreciated ! :D

PS : Man I wish we can see that goofy Ao Shin SR dragon model since you said recent data is easy to get and Ao Shin is not 5+ years old in development :3

RiotMeddlerSep 20, 201610 votes

Glad it was what you were after!

The upcoming dev blog's going to look at a few champion prototypes partway through their development, looking both at how we represented them while they were works in progress and what their kits were like at the time. Combination of text and videos of the prototypes. If that's well received I might see if I can dig out another good set at some point (takes a bit of time to dig out old files and some prototypes aren't as interesting as others).

AxxukaSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Glad it was what you were after!

The upcoming dev blog's going to look at a few champion prototypes partway through their development, looking both at how we represented them while they were works in progress and what their kits were like at the time. Combination of text and videos of the prototypes. If that's well received I might see if I can dig out another good set at some point (takes a bit of time to dig out old files and some prototypes aren't as interesting as others).

Thanks alot for your time answering me and the upcoming Devblog, these kind of informations are nice but rare to get since the teams focus on their new champ (it's nice knowing it's easier to reach for the future, but what about not so old champs that didn't get the big release treatment ?).

I don't know how much time it takes to work on and how much info will be given, but if it's well received could it become a annual or bi-annual blog (one for older Champs, one for stuff more recent) ? And like you said, since some protypes might not be interesting, I'm just throwings ideas since I can't tell what's behind the scenes... Except that rock-surfing with Taliyah faces as a texture (Or did you guys even work with that without a psychological trauma ? I think I wouldn't stay concentrated 2-3 minutes without laughing)

On this, good night, made my evening with Katey and the new skins o/

RiotMeddlerSep 20, 20161 votes

I could imagine us doing an occasional 'look at some prototypes' sort of thing yeah, depends on reception though as you say.

OctaviaSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I could imagine us doing an occasional 'look at some prototypes' sort of thing yeah, depends on reception though as you say.

yes pls do that

LY0NEXSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Glad it was what you were after!

The upcoming dev blog's going to look at a few champion prototypes partway through their development, looking both at how we represented them while they were works in progress and what their kits were like at the time. Combination of text and videos of the prototypes. If that's well received I might see if I can dig out another good set at some point (takes a bit of time to dig out old files and some prototypes aren't as interesting as others).

If a prototype gets a lot of buzz going and many people from the community fall in love with it, do you think it would be possible you guys might revive and make it?

Also, this is very very offtopic and a bit selfish, but, can you give us a little something about Talon's rework? I'm dying to know.

RiotMeddlerSep 20, 20163 votes

This dev blog's going to be looking at prototype versions of existing champions that shipped, not completely cancelled champions. So things like Rek'Sai's kit when it had a bunch of different things on it. Some of the individual skills shown that didn't get used on the champions they were on then could certainly show up elsewhere though.

Apologies, but I'll leave revealing the details of the Talon update to the team working on him. Expect we should be able to share all the details sometime in the second half of October for what it's worth though.

patmax17Sep 20, 20161 votes

A story I like (hope I remember correctly) is the following:

in one of her iterations, Vi's ult allowed the player to throw the enemy into any direction -> this then became Gnar's ult
in one of his iterations, Gnar could eat his opponents -> Tahm Kench

I find this chain of scrapped ideas funny, now I want to see what ability got scrapped for fish tank that will go into another champ's kit :D

Another I remember is that some designer had long wanted to make a champ fly (maybe first when they made quinn, maybe earlier), and that became ~~Ao Shin's~~ Aurelion Sol's E

Am I correct? :D

LukinerSep 20, 20161 votes

what about Diana? On wiki there is info and even concept arts where her E was actually her ult and she could deal true damage in huge aoe after channeling (with effect of huge moon eclipse animation). But it was scraped since back then it would be to strong/not fit game

But would that ult fit into game in current state of league? Making her R as basic ability and her E as ult that deals crazy AoE damage after fully channeling it

SlashStrikerSep 19, 20161 votes

I still wanna see kassadin's daughter but i got no idea if she is gonna be like him (human hybrid) or transformed into total monster or if she is gonna be played as assassin or fighter or mage

OleandervineSep 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I still wanna see kassadin's daughter but i got no idea if she is gonna be like him (human hybrid) or transformed into total monster or if she is gonna be played as assassin or fighter or mage

Only female Void... just sayin... http://i.imgur.com/CwBoIn1.jpg